UK licence after Brexit

Peregrinus · 27-02-2019 11:34am

You have to read Art. 24 along with Art. 1 para 2:

No Contracting State shall be required to extend the benefit of the provisions of this Convention to . . . any driver having remained within its territory for a continuous period exceeding one year.

So if you have been an Irish resident for a year or more, I don't think you can rely on the Convention to exempt you from the requirement to obtain an Irish licence.

Marcusm · 27-02-2019 11:57am

GM228 wrote: »

The Irish Government has already previously confirmed that they will be recognised somewhere, I'll dig it out.

There's so much scare mongering regarding licences that they (the EU, Ireland and the UK) seem to forget to mention that both the EUs individual countries have recognised each others driving licences since signing up to the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (or the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic), this is separate to the EUs mutual recognition of driving licences.

There's also the question of weather or not the UK will still be part of the EEA, if they do then the licence issue does not arise.

EDIT:

Both Ireland and the EU have confirmed this already several months ago:-

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitcontingency/No-Deal-Brexit-Contingency-Action-Plan-December-18.pdf

And from the EU themselves:-

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/travelling.pdf

Article 24 of the 1949 Convention (applicable to Ireland) states:-

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1952/03/19520326%2003-36%20PM/Ch_XI_B_1_2_3.pdf

The requirement for an IDP as mentioned by the EU is optional under Article 24.2, Ireland does not require such.

I hope that clarifies the situation as it stands.

The benefits of the Convention apply to visitors not residents. That latter category is where the issue arises.

jimgoose · 27-02-2019 12:35pm

From the NDLS:

"Please be advised the NDLS do not deal with the International Driving Permits. This type of licence is usually only valid for a year and is used in conjunction with the driver's Full driving licence.

In the event of a no deal Brexit, the Road Safety Authority here in Ireland will come to some arrangement with the DVLA. We do not have a timeframe for this arrangement to be put in place."

This may or may not amount to a hill of beans, too little too late, YMMV, etc.

CJhaughey · 27-02-2019 1:21pm

Its a two way street, there are presumably many EU/Irish License holders in the UK that will be greatly inconvenienced by this issue, I wouldn't rule out that they may recognise UK licenses the same way they recognise Australian,NZ licenses given the fact that they drive on the correct side of the road.

Isambard · 27-02-2019 1:54pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its a two way street, there are presumably many EU/Irish License holders in the UK that will be greatly inconvenienced by this issue, I wouldn't rule out that they may recognise UK licenses the same way they recognise Australian,NZ licenses given the fact that they drive on the correct side of the road.

do they recognise them for UK residents?

27-02-2019 2:03pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its a two way street, there are presumably many EU/Irish License holders in the UK that will be greatly inconvenienced by this issue, I wouldn't rule out that they may recognise UK licenses the same way they recognise Australian,NZ licenses given the fact that they drive on the correct side of the road.

How will they be inconvenienced? The UK Government has confirmed their licenses will remain valid.

theteal · 27-02-2019 2:18pm

Quick one relating to this subject.

Through a bit of a fluke a few weeks ago, I'm now in possession of both UK and Irish drivers licenses. I've lived in the UK for almost 8 years now. The Irish one expires in about 5 months.

Is there any benefit in getting it renewed? (If I even could, not sure I could provide a proof of address, if required). I may be moving back in the next few years but I've been 8 years saying that

Isambard · 27-02-2019 2:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

How will they be inconvenienced? The UK Government has confirmed their licenses will remain valid.

you'll have to provide some link to that. there's so much mis-information out there, we can't just rely on you having read something somewhere

Anjobe · 27-02-2019 3:10pm

Isambard wrote: »

you'll have to provide some link to that. there's so much mis-information out there, we can't just rely on you having read something somewhere

I don't see anything here: https://www.gov.uk/government/latest?departments%5B%5D=department-for-exiting-the-european-union

27-02-2019 3:11pm

Isambard wrote: »

you'll have to provide some link to that. there's so much mis-information out there, we can't just rely on you having read something somewhere

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit#eu-drivers-visiting-or-living-in-the-uk-after-eu-exit

Our Government's line appears to be that they simply cannot do anything and a hard brexit means they are forced to stop accepting UK licences. Absolute nonsense as far as I can tell.

The people this most affects are almost certainly Irish citizens who grew up in the north and are living in the south - some for many many years I suspect.

Marcusm · 27-02-2019 3:36pm

theteal wrote: »

Quick one relating to this subject.

Through a bit of a fluke a few weeks ago, I'm now in possession of both UK and Irish drivers licenses. I've lived in the UK for almost 8 years now. The Irish one expires in about 5 months.

Is there any benefit in getting it renewed? (If I even could, not sure I could provide a proof of address, if required). I may be moving back in the next few years but I've been 8 years saying that

Are they for the same or overlapping categories? If yes then you didn’t read the IK form properly which asked you to confirm that you did not hold an existing RU licence. It will most likely never come to light but the U.K. licence will have been obtained via a false declaration (unknowingly, i’ll Guess). On that basis it is void on its face.

Isambard · 27-02-2019 3:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit#eu-drivers-visiting-or-living-in-the-uk-after-eu-exit

Our Government's line appears to be that they simply cannot do anything and a hard brexit means they are forced to stop accepting UK licences. Absolute nonsense as far as I can tell.

The people this most affects are almost certainly Irish citizens who grew up in the north and are living in the south - some for many many years I suspect.

good man, that seems quite clear.

27-02-2019 3:46pm

jimgoose wrote: »

It actually gets a little more painful. From https://www.ndls.ie/holders-of-foreign-licences.html#to-apply-to-exchange-a-foreign-driving-licence-issued-by-a-member-state-of-the-european-union-european-economic-area:

"Please note: Applications to exchange a licence may take 2/3 months to process as we need to contact the original licensing authority."

That's if there is no exchange agreement in place.

I changed mu UK licence for an Irish one a few years ago (my UK licence was one of the newer ones that had expired) and I just downloaded the forms, made the appointment and had my Irish licence in a few days.

GM228 · 27-02-2019 4:24pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

So the statement by the RSA is not really factual?

As it stands they are factually correct, the Government just need to make minor legislative changes for wider use of the Convention.

Peregrinus wrote: »

You have to read Art. 24 along with Art. 1 para 2:

No Contracting State shall be required to extend the benefit of the provisions of this Convention to . . . any driver having remained within its territory for a continuous period exceeding one year.

So if you have been an Irish resident for a year or more, I don't think you can rely on the Convention to exempt you from the requirement to obtain an Irish licence.

This is true, currently, however the point I'm making is that there simply needs to be a minor legislative change to allow for such, Article 1 sets a minimum timeframe for the applicability of the Convention, not a maximum. The use of the Convention gives potential for overnight legislative changes, yes quite literally overnight as it can be done via Ministerial Regulation rather than an Act, and on top of that there is no prolonged process or negotiation for a bi-lateral agreement required for recognition (though there would be for exchange purposes in future) because we already have a long established agreed Treaty to fall back on.

Marcusm wrote: »

The benefits of the Convention apply to visitors not residents. That latter category is where the issue arises.

Currently yes, however the Convention is framed in such a way that it can be used for any person who has crossed a frontier barrier weather that be recently or several years ago for example. Whilst the current legislation applies to a visitor the Convention does not have such a restriction.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Our Government's line appears to be that they simply cannot do anything and a hard brexit means they are forced to stop accepting UK licences. Absolute nonsense as far as I can tell.

The Government have not made that line, the NDLS have and based on the current law they are simply stating the facts as they are currently.

The Governments line via the Department of Foreign Affairs has already said licences will be valid.

Marcusm · 27-02-2019 5:02pm

GM228 wrote: »

As it stands they are factually correct, the Government just need to make minor legislative changes for wider use of the Convention.

This is true, currently, however the point I'm making is that there simply needs to be a minor legislative change to allow for such, Article 1 sets a minimum timeframe for the applicability of the Convention, not a maximum. The use of the Convention gives potential for overnight legislative changes, yes quite literally overnight as it can be done via Ministerial Regulation rather than an Act, and on top of that there is no prolonged process or negotiation for a bi-lateral agreement required for recognition (though there would be for exchange purposes in future) because we already have a long established agreed Treaty to fall back on.

Currently yes, however the Convention is framed in such a way that it can be used for any person who has crossed a frontier barrier weather that be recently or several years ago for example. Whilst the current legislation applies to a visitor the Convention does not have such a restriction.

The Government have not made that line, the NDLS have and based on the current law they are simply stating the facts as they are currently.

The Governments line via the Department of Foreign Affairs has already said licences will be valid.

I haven’t checked but I suspect that EU law will require residents with non-EU licences to exchange or requalify within 12 months meaning it is not within the competency of the member state to increase the term of recognition.

GM228 · 27-02-2019 5:08pm

Marcusm wrote: »

I haven’t checked but I suspect that EU law will require residents with non-EU licences to exchange or requalify within 12 months meaning it is not within the competency of the member state to increase the term of recognition.

EU law does not require such.

27-02-2019 5:09pm

GM228 wrote: »

The Government have not made that line, the NDLS have and based on the current law they are simply stating the facts as they are currently.

The Governments line via the Department of Foreign Affairs has already said licences will be valid.

Is there a link to the latter? Because the NDLS line is the one getting all the attention.

theteal · 27-02-2019 5:10pm

Marcusm wrote: »

Are they for the same or overlapping categories? If yes then you didn’t read the IK form properly which asked you to confirm that you did not hold an existing RU licence. It will most likely never come to light but the U.K. licence will have been obtained via a false declaration (unknowingly, i’ll Guess). On that basis it is void on its face.

The Irish license had been lost for weeks (well actually months but I wasn't aware) at that stage, I had to send a print of a saved copy with my UK application. It turned up the day after the UK one arrived, I sh!t you not.

I'm of the opinion that keeping the Irish one renewed is pretty pointless but am I overlooking anything?

GM228 · 27-02-2019 5:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is there a link to the latter? Because the NDLS line is the one getting all the attention.

Look at the Government Brexit Contingency Action Plan issued in December:

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitcontingency/No-Deal-Brexit-Contingency-Action-Plan-December-18.pdf

19. Are UK driving licences going to be recognised in the EU in a no deal scenario?

In a no-deal scenario, UK driving licences will be recognised in the European Union (and vice-versa) on the basis of the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic (and the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic in the case of Ireland, Cyprus, Malta and Spain).

It is clear that the Government will use the Convention as I outlined for this and the EU themselves have also stated this.

Isambard · 27-02-2019 5:22pm

GM228 wrote: »

Look at the Government Brexit Contingency Action Plan issued in December:

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/brexitcontingency/No-Deal-Brexit-Contingency-Action-Plan-December-18.pdf

It is clear that the Government will use the Convention as I outlined for this and the EU themselves have also stated this.

yes that's for tourists but it's not quite the same for Residents. Whereas the UK Govt has said it will accept Irish and other EU licenses for Residents, Ireland has said it won't accept UK licenses for Residents in the event of No Deal

GM228 · 27-02-2019 5:26pm

Isambard wrote: »

yes that's for tourists but it's not quite the same for Residents. Whereas the UK Govt has said it will accept Irish and other EU licenses for Residents, Ireland has said it won't accept UK licenses for Residents in the event of No Deal

And the Convention can be used if legislation is changed as I outlined, where has "Ireland" stated they won't accept for residents?

The AA has recently stated that the Department of Transport are in discussion regarding a "patch" to the law.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe.ie/amp/motors/emergency-law-uk-driving-licence-brexit-659512

27-02-2019 5:28pm

GM228 wrote: »

And the Convention can be used if legislation is changed as I outlined, where has "Ireland" stated they won't accept for residents?

On the NDLS website?

It's a state agency, it says in black and white you cannot drive on a UK licence after March 29th.

jimgoose · 27-02-2019 5:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the NDLS website?

It's a state agency, it says in black and white you cannot drive on a UK licence after March 29th.

That's the position as it stands right now. The NDLS told me there are moves afoot to try to rectify the situation alright.

mdebets · 27-02-2019 5:42pm

theteal wrote: »

The Irish license had been lost for weeks (well actually months but I wasn't aware) at that stage, I had to send a print of a saved copy with my UK application. It turned up the day after the UK one arrived, I sh!t you not.

I'm of the opinion that keeping the Irish one renewed is pretty pointless but am I overlooking anything?

In this case, your Irish license is invalid. The UK authorities had to inform the Irish authorities about the exchange, which would have marked it as exchanged in the Irish system. You are not able to renew it, as the NDSL knows that you exchanged it for an UK one.

Isambard · 27-02-2019 6:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the NDLS website?

It's a state agency, it says in black and white you cannot drive on a UK licence after March 29th.

in the event of a no deal Brexit, which incidentally is looking increasingly unlikely in view of the news the last day or two

GM228 · 27-02-2019 6:18pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

On the NDLS website?

It's a state agency, it says in black and white you cannot drive on a UK licence after March 29th.

The NDLS is not a state agency, it is a service, and despite being linked to the RSA it is not run by the RSA either.

Three private companies operate the NDLS. The statement was made by the NDLS, not a state agency or "Ireland".

Credit Checker Moose · 27-02-2019 6:21pm

GM228 wrote: »

The NDLS is not a state agency, it is a service, and despite being linked to the RSA it is not run by the RSA either.

Three private companies operate the NDLS. The statement was made by the NDLS, not a state agency or "Ireland".

Funny you mentioned that.

I was asked by a foreign agency for the name of the issuing authority for Irish licences. Is it the DOE, DOT, RSA or NDLS? Or does that depend on the date of issue?

GM228 · 27-02-2019 6:22pm

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Funny you mentioned that.

I was asked by a foreign agency for the name of the issuing authority for Irish licences. Is it the DOE, DOT, RSA or NDLS? Or does that depend on the date of issue?

NDLS is the issuing authority.

Credit Checker Moose · 27-02-2019 6:23pm

Even for the paper ones?

27-02-2019 6:25pm

GM228 wrote: »

The NDLS is not a state agency, it is a service, and despite being linked to the RSA it is not run by the RSA either.

Three private companies operate the NDLS. The statement was made by the NDLS, not a state agency or "Ireland".

OK fine.

Same information on the RSA website with a big dirty "Government Of ireland" image above it:
http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2019/Brexit-Update/

UK licence after Brexit

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