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Random EV thoughts.....

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    #4232
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Maybe with the likes of Ionity and Gridserve and other providers in Norway the need to get access to the SuC network has naturally waned

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    #4233
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    slave1 wrote: »
    Maybe with the likes of Ionity and Gridserve and other providers in Norway the need to get access to the SuC network has naturally waned

    Yes and no

    The problem with other networks is that they aren't expanding fast enough to handle the number of EVs coming to market

    Even in Norway they're seeing charging queues in summer when everyone is driving around. They aren't bad, and there's generally another hub (a real hub) 5 mins down the road, but they still happen

    One of the key differences with Tesla is that they reinvest a certain amount of every car sale into the SuC network, so it's guarunteed to expand as Tesla sells more cars

    On the flip side you have Ionity, which is in theory a great network but is falling short of it's expansion goals. Because it's a consortium, all the partners need to agree if they want to invest more, which some of them evidently aren't prepared to do

    I think this is part of the reason VW group is starting to strike out on it's own away from Ionity. They want more control over 'their' network and what direction it goes, since they know that a high quality charging network drives EV sales

    Unfortunately they're doing it in a halfway fashion by partnering with local providers rather than putting VW branded chargers wherever they can

    For VW* gaining access to a network which is well established, well known and high quality would be a major selling point. Especially in the US where the ID.4 is going to be built soon. Imagine US car buyers being told that VW cars get access to the biggest charging network in the country. You'd be fighting off the crowds from the showrooms

    *Again, I'm just using them as an example, you can insert you car company of choice instead

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4234
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    the_amazing_raisin wrote: »
    Unfortunately they're doing it in a halfway fashion by partnering with local providers rather than putting VW branded chargers wherever they can

    That sounds like a good approach to me. The Tesla SuC network was born out of necessity, not desire. If every manufacturer ended up building out their own proprietary charging network across the world, the cost and waste would be enormous and the outcome would be a poorer experience for customers, driving past row after row of charging equipment that you can't use. If the Tesla SuC network was as poor in Ireland as eCars, would Tesla owners be clamouring
    to retain their private charging network? Of course not. People are conflating the SuC network being of good quality and assuming that the only way to get good quality is to build a private network.

    If all the money that would be needed for each manufacturer to build their own network was instead invested in a single, public charging network, the outcome for everyone would be much better. There's a reason why we don't have Ford filling stations and Peugeot filling stations. EV charging stations should be no different.


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    #4235
    sh81722
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭sh81722


    The difference between charging and fuel stations is that a great portion of of EV owners don't use public charging. The flip side is that the ones who plan to use public charging should support manufactures that try to make their lives easier by providing the right charging product at the right price.

    One of the biggest reasons to go for Tesla for me was the European wide network of chargers with multiple units per site that just work without extra faffage with cards accounts and occasional rip off pricing. Done that, looking forward not to do it in the future.


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    #4236
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    markpb wrote: »
    That sounds like a good approach to me. The Tesla SuC network was born out of necessity, not desire. If every manufacturer ended up building out their own proprietary charging network across the world, the cost and waste would be enormous and the outcome would be a poorer experience for customers, driving past row after row of charging equipment that you can't use. If the Tesla SuC network was as poor in Ireland as eCars, would Tesla owners be clamouring
    to retain their private charging network? Of course not. People are conflating the SuC network being of good quality and assuming that the only way to get good quality is to build a private network.

    If all the money that would be needed for each manufacturer to build their own network was instead invested in a single, public charging network, the outcome for everyone would be much better. There's a reason why we don't have Ford filling stations and Peugeot filling stations. EV charging stations should be no different.

    True, and I'm sure smarter people than me have done the numbers and decided this was best from a risk vs reward viewpoint

    I feel like VW might edn up missing out on some free advertising however. Tesla superchargers aren't exactl sublte and they have Tesla badges slapped all over them. People see them and think "hmm, that's a lot of chargers, if I had a Tesla I could charge here"

    If VW slapped VW badges on any charging networks they build, then they'll generate the same effect, even if the network is open to other cars (which it should be)

    For example in Spain, VW have partnered with Iberdrola to build upon their (crap) charging network there and install HPC chargers. It makes sense because Iberdrola is a local company with local knowledge and the resources and expertise needed to do the job

    Those chargers will probably be Iberdrola branded chargers but if I were a VW execs I'd be making sure that they had a "brought to you by Volkswagen" put very prominently on the chargers and any advertising features an ID.3 or 4

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4237
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    sh81722 wrote: »
    The difference between charging and fuel stations is that a great portion of of EV owners don't use public charging. The flip side is that the ones who plan to use public charging should support manufactures that try to make their lives easier by providing the right charging product at the right price.

    One of the biggest reasons to go for Tesla for me was the European wide network of chargers with multiple units per site that just work without extra faffage with cards accounts and occasional rip off pricing. Done that, looking forward not to do it in the future.

    Plug & charge literally can't come fast enough

    A lot of the networks already support it, it's the car companies that are slow to implement it

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4238
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    sh81722 wrote: »
    One of the biggest reasons to go for Tesla for me was the European wide network of chargers with multiple units per site that just work without extra faffage with cards accounts and occasional rip off pricing. Done that, looking forward not to do it in the future.

    Tesla are by far the biggest rip off when it comes to their charging network, a one time €39,000 membership fee that comes with a free car!


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    #4239
    cannco253
    Registered Users Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭cannco253


    the_amazing_raisin wrote: »
    True, and I'm sure smarter people than me have done the numbers and decided this was best from a risk vs reward viewpoint

    I feel like VW might edn up missing out on some free advertising however. Tesla superchargers aren't exactl sublte and they have Tesla badges slapped all over them. People see them and think "hmm, that's a lot of chargers, if I had a Tesla I could charge here"

    If VW slapped VW badges on any charging networks they build, then they'll generate the same effect, even if the network is open to other cars (which it should be)

    For example in Spain, VW have partnered with Iberdrola to build upon their (crap) charging network there and install HPC chargers. It makes sense because Iberdrola is a local company with local knowledge and the resources and expertise needed to do the job

    Those chargers will probably be Iberdrola branded chargers but if I were a VW execs I'd be making sure that they had a "brought to you by Volkswagen" put very prominently on the chargers and any advertising features an ID.3 or 4

    Already done with PodPoint/VW branding at Tesco UK. Are the Irish Tesco chargers all eCars, maybe they could do something similar here?
    https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/partnerships/tesco


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    #4240
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    the_amazing_raisin wrote: »
    For example in Spain, VW have partnered with Iberdrola to build upon their (crap) charging network there and install HPC chargers. It makes sense because Iberdrola is a local company with local knowledge and the resources and expertise needed to do the job

    Considering Tesla's experience at building SuCs in Ireland (applying to the wrong planning authority and forgetting a key element of the application pack), maybe they should be partnering with anyone in Ireland to do a better job :D


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    #4241
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    cannco253 wrote: »
    Already done with PodPoint/VW branding at Tesco UK. Are the Irish Tesco chargers all eCars, maybe they could do something similar here?
    https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/partnerships/tesco

    I'd like to see how ECars would cope in the face of German expectations :)

    Herbert Deiss visits the Athlone HPC: "Nein, zis is not a hub!"

    (I'm probably doing him a disservice here since a lot of Germans speak better English than I do!)

    I think the Tesco deal was a bit of a lame attempt because most of those were 22kW units of limited use to Tesco customers

    VW seem to have learned their lesson based on their power day a while back since they specifically mentioned building up HPC networks, not just "charger" networks which can mean anything

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4242
    AndyBoBandy
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭AndyBoBandy


    the_amazing_raisin wrote: »
    I think the Tesco deal was a bit of a lame attempt because most of those were 22kW units of limited use to Tesco customers

    The hope is that eventually they'll see sense and the AC22's will be replaced with 44kW DC units......

    and in an even more ideal world, if those replaced AC22's are still in good serviceable condition, they should be re-deployed to new* or existing locations.

    *unfortunately eCars said there would be no new locations, but it would be at least nice to double up the number of AC plugs in existing locations... (1 AC22 in a village somewhere just aint going to cut it).


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    #4243
    sh81722
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭sh81722


    liamog wrote: »
    Tesla are by far the biggest rip off when it comes to their charging network, a one time €39,000 membership fee that comes with a free car!

    As usual the Irish customers are ripped off in tune of another 10k on top of the correct prices. First Tesla and then VW with the WeCharge not applying here.

    :‐)


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    #4244
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    AndyBoBandy wrote: »
    The hope is that eventually they'll see sense and the AC22's will be replaced with 44kW DC units......

    and in an even more ideal world, if those replaced AC22's are still in good serviceable condition, they should be re-deployed to new* or existing locations.

    *unfortunately eCars said there would be no new locations, but it would be at least nice to double up the number of AC plugs in existing locations... (1 AC22 in a village somewhere just aint going to cut it).

    Yeah there's lots of places where 22kW AC makes sense, workplaces, hotels, tourist spots, train stations (sort of)

    Just not supermarkets, I'm glad to see some of the AC units being replaced with 44kW DC ones, much more versatile IMO, especially since they still support AC as well

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4245
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sh81722 wrote: »
    As usual the Irish customers are ripped off in tune of another 10k on top of the correct prices. First Tesla and then VW with the WeCharge not applying here.

    :‐)

    Just be a peasant and buy an older Model S :)
    I have free lifetime unlimited super charging :)


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    #4246
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    Notwithstanding its recent survey results, the infrastructure question “can be a little overplayed,” suggests IEVOA spokesperson Kevin Dowling.

    “Ireland is in a pretty decent place in this regard I]charging infrastructure[/I and the Government needs to future-proof it. We need to avoid a situation where we store technical debt in the future by having too much unnecessary infrastructure. In fact, the focus on it acts as a detractor for many potential EV owners, who get scared by the doomsayers as regards infrastructure around the country.”

    https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/motors-focus-2021/infrastructure-key-to-electric-vehicle-changeover-1.4589749?mode=amp

    Am I seeing something that isn't there, because to me, it seems like the IEVOA are saying we are well served already with charging infrastructure & demands for improvement are doomsaying, scaring more people away from BEVs :eek:.

    All we need to do is "future proof" our dismal charging network, complete with 99% single point of failure 50kW DC units, here & there, not forgetting our single 3 unit HPC hub, which is limited to 60kW or similar I hear (& the largely useless AC points in selected Tesco stores :D)

    So, the IEVOA are in effect lobbying for "holding firm", we're already there, save the pennies on useless charging infrastructure.

    Have I drank a bottle of wine without realising tonight? :confused:.

    Someone please explain how I'm misreading that!!


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    #4247
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Kramer wrote: »
    Am I seeing something that isn't there, because to me, it seems like the IEVOA are saying we are well served already with charging infrastructure & demands for improvement are doomsaying, scaring more people away from BEVs :eek:.

    All we need to do is "future proof" our dismal charging network, complete with 99% single point of failure 50kW DC units, here & there, not forgetting our single 3 unit HPC hub, which is limited to 60kW or similar I hear (& the largely useless AC points in selected Tesco stores :D)

    So, the IEVOA are in effect lobbying for "holding firm", we're already there, save the pennies on useless charging infrastructure.

    Have I drank a bottle of wine without realising tonight? :confused:.

    Someone please explain how I'm misreading that!!

    The guy from SIMI seemed pretty good, saying that planning laws should be updated to require EV charging. Pretty much hit the nail on the head IMO

    The IEVOA guy didn't do great, contradicted himself a few times in the same sentence even

    If I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, while public charging isn't great the problems are often overplayed by non EV owners saying stuff like there's nowhere to charge an EV or that it takes hours to charge anywhere

    There isn't enough chargers for sure, but that's still better than no chargers

    EDIT: Actually the IEVOA guy made one great point about the myriad of apps needed to access the networks and suggested there should be one central card like a Leap card

    He should have gone a step further and suggested all chargers should has tap and pay terminals attached.

    I mean we have these well established global spanning payments networks, why exactly aren't we using them???

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #4248
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    the_amazing_raisin wrote: »
    The guy from SIMI seemed pretty good, saying that planning laws should be updated to require EV charging. Pretty much hit the nail on the head IMO

    Yeah, I was surprised they seemed to have changed their tune - EV sales are becoming noticeable for them now - €60k ID.4s & eTrons are profitable I bet (with €10k taxpayer grants on top) :pac:.

    But a lobby group basically saying we have great charging infrastructure is ridiculous. It's likely the J14 hub wasn't even operating when that article was formulated, so we had zero HPCs & zero hubs when he said that (Tesla & Ionity excluded, of course).


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    #4249
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Kramer wrote: »
    Am I seeing something that isn't there, because to me, it seems like the IEVOA are saying we are well served already with charging infrastructure & demands for improvement are doomsaying, scaring more people away from BEVs :eek:.

    All we need to do is "future proof" our dismal charging network, complete with 99% single point of failure 50kW DC units, here & there, not forgetting our single 3 unit HPC hub, which is limited to 60kW or similar I hear (& the largely useless AC points in selected Tesco stores :D)

    That's a somewhat ironic response to claims that the infrastructure issues are overplayed, there are 110 locations on the island with CCS chargers, there are at least 7 sites with multiple DC chargers, so no 99% of our rapid charging network does not consist of locations with single points of failure.
    There's still lots of improvement needed, but it's a lot better than it was 18 months ago.


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    #4250
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    liamog wrote: »
    There's still lots of improvement needed, but it's a lot better than it was 18 months ago.

    There's no denying that it is better, but it should be miles better than it is & even was, 18 months ago.
    Invest in the network, it'll be used. Money well spent.
    We came up with what, €30/40bn overnight for Covid, but a paltry €10m to save the planet?

    Lobby groups should be badgering government for investment in charging infrastructure, not basically saying what we already have is good enough & just needs some future-proofing :eek:.

    We've covered somewhere around 100,000 "electric" kilometres over the last 2 years & the network is no where near good enough. The IEVOA or Independent didn't ask me for my thoughts though & I won't be heard by the transport minister, but I'll make some noise here :D.


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    #4251
    Kramer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    liamog wrote: »
    there are at least 7 sites with multiple DC chargers, so no 99% of our rapid charging network does not consist of locations with single points of failure.

    Are you including Ionity & Tesla in that 7? While I didn't expressly name eCars, I was referring to "our" infrastructure, as in state funded/owned. I did exclude Tesla & Ionity in a follow up post.
    Kramer wrote: »
    It's likely the J14 hub wasn't even operating when that article was formulated, so we had zero HPCs & zero hubs when he said that (Tesla & Ionity excluded, of course).

    I know of many more multiple DC sites, far more than 7. Dozens. Privately owned/operated & I wouldn't class them as part of "our" infrastructure.

    What do we want?
    More DC charging hubs!
    When do we want them?
    Now!

    :pac:.


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    #4252
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Kramer wrote: »
    Are you including Ionity & Tesla in that 7? While I didn't expressly name eCars, I was referring to "our" infrastructure, as in state funded/owned. I did exclude Tesla & Ionity in a follow up post.

    No just eCars sites.
    Dublin Port, J14 Mayfield, Kilcullen, Portlaoise Plaza, Athlone, Carrick On Shannon, Kiltullagh

    There's a whole thread about the investment programme ;)


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    #4253
    jjmcclure
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭jjmcclure


    A friend tells me DCI (Diesel Card Ireland) are launching EV charge cards in the next couple of weeks. Apparently they will also be installing home/office charge points and their EV card can be used for multi fuel so if you have a PHEV you can fill it with petrol/diesel and then top up your charge on the ESB network.


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    #4254
    boccy23
    Registered Users Posts: 2,936 ✭✭✭boccy23


    Funnily enough, I just posted in the ID4 thread about this.

    This is what they state:

    Electric vehicle charge points nationally, main brands:
    ESB, NewMotion, IONITY and Fastned

    As you say, there are 2 options, PHEV with combined Fuel & EV or EV only.

    Does anyone know about the NewMotion or Fastned aspect?


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    #4255
    innrain
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭innrain


    boccy23 wrote: »
    Funnily enough, I just posted in the ID4 thread about this.

    This is what they state:

    Electric vehicle charge points nationally, main brands:
    ESB, NewMotion, IONITY and Fastned

    As you say, there are 2 options, PHEV with combined Fuel & EV or EV only.

    Does anyone know about the NewMotion or Fastned aspect?


    Dutch not in Ireland yet. Fastned announced they are looking to expand in UK and Ireland but my feeling is that they don't refer to the Republic.


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    #4256
    jjmcclure
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭jjmcclure


    innrain wrote: »
    Dutch not in Ireland yet. Fastned announced they are looking to expand in UK and Ireland but my feeling is that they don't refer to the Republic.


    The company that owns DCI bought a charge point manufacturer and will be installing those as well as having a partnership with NM.


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    #4257
    THE ALM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    Emailed them yesterday for further details so just waiting to hear back, already have the standard fuel card.


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    #4258
    Busman Paddy Lasty
    Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    liamog wrote: »
    That's a somewhat ironic response to claims that the infrastructure issues are overplayed, there are 110 locations on the island with CCS chargers, there are at least 7 sites with multiple DC chargers, so no 99% of our rapid charging network does not consist of locations with single points of failure.
    There's still lots of improvement needed, but it's a lot better than it was 18 months ago.

    Fair play to them only 94% locations with single points of failure. Of the 103 single DC sites not one can charge eCars' 2017 Ioniq at 70kW if the car wants it.

    Now that CCS is mentioned, the triple headers will stop a CCS charge if a CHAdeMO session is started. AFAIK this hasn't been fixed so that's an extra dimension to point of failure for CCS users.

    Can't wait for the hubs to be finished but the above is solid reason for many to be very frustrated with the network at present.


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    #4259
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,814 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »
    Can't wait for the hubs to be finished but the above is solid reason for many to be very frustrated with the network at present.

    Don't disagree with you here roll out of the bigger hubs is definitely required, but most peoples frustration with the network seems to be hypothetical rather than the cause of actual problems. I'm taking the Mini for a weekend trip to Galway from Dublin, on the route I'll be passing in reasonable proximity to 14 CCS charge points. That's not bad on a 200km journey.


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    #4260
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Dependable hubs the only solution, I've a trip tomorrow and just looking at my car I'll arrive at Tesla Ballacolla with 6% SOC and I'm 100% anxiety free as I know there's 8 stalls there and they'll be working/available when i arrive

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

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    #4261
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,926 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    liamog wrote: »
    Don't disagree with you here roll out of the bigger hubs is definitely required, but most peoples frustration with the network seems to be hypothetical rather than the cause of actual problems. I'm taking the Mini for a weekend trip to Galway from Dublin, on the route I'll be passing in reasonable proximity to 14 CCS charge points. That's not bad on a 200km journey.

    True but would you say we're in a "good place" nationally as the IEVOA spokesperson said? Personally I would say we're in an alright or mediocre place as we have some routes with reasonably good infrastrucutre and many routes with poor or no infrastructure

    We also have the majority of the network in the hands of a single comapany, always a recipe for disaster. This disaster struck last year when ESB's backend payment system hit an issue and the entire charging network went down

    Imagine a HSE style cyber attack there, several weeks wthout public charging would be enough to put EV adoption back a decade at least

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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