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Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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    #1352
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,277 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Its box office bringing the star drivers back. Even as disruptive as he is, he will still drive huge sponsorship and interest into the sport.


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    #1353
    Top Dog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Top Dog


    mickdw wrote: »
    Its box office bringing the star drivers back. Even as disruptive as he is, he will still drive huge sponsorship and interest into the sport.
    Its also giving a hugely unfair advantage (if he's still got his turn of speed) to one team over another. Could be a sweetener to try keep Renault from leaving the sport by saving them a wedge of cash on wages, buts a firm 2 fingers to the smaller teams like Williams if true.


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    #1354
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Top Dog wrote: »
    Its also giving a hugely unfair advantage (if he's still got his turn of speed) to one team over another. Could be a sweetener to try keep Renault from leaving the sport by saving them a wedge of cash on wages, buts a firm 2 fingers to the smaller teams like Williams if true.

    Absolutely. Every team will expect a similar payment every time they threaten to pull out. The precedent is: claim you'll pull out unless you get a load of money. Ferrari will be getting this subsidy every year before long.


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    #1355
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,642 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    mickdw wrote: »
    Its box office bringing the star drivers back. Even as disruptive as he is, he will still drive huge sponsorship and interest into the sport.

    He will also get every ounce out of the car even if crap. Remember him dragging the Mclaren-Honda home that was on its knees but yet he still got it to the pits. I don't think any other driver would have done that. In fact I can not think of one driver in the current grid that would have done that. They all would have just pulled the car over said its done and got out.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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    #1356
    recyclebin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    mickdw wrote: »
    Its box office bringing the star drivers back. Even as disruptive as he is, he will still drive huge sponsorship and interest into the sport.

    When he drove for McLaren Honda all he did was whinge and get a few 7th places. Joining Renault won't be a whole lot different. Maybe a few 5th places at best. A podium if he's very lucky. That won't drive huge sponsorship.

    Is he not still driving for McLaren in Indy this year too?


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    #1357
    Inviere
    Registered Users Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭Inviere


    Top Dog wrote: »
    Could be a sweetener to try keep Renault from leaving the sport

    I had the same thought.

    Retro Computers/Consoles Repair/Restoration List



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    #1358
    geotrig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭geotrig


    muckwarrior wrote: »
    No.

    While I rate him more highly than Vettel, his statistics are also exaggerated by him being in a dominant car for so long. Nevertheless i reckon he would have managed a couple of championships with Ferrari if his and Vettel's positions were reversed for the past 5 years.

    Its very hard to tell , Ferrari seem like a mess in some ways more than ever(their old ways seem at odds with this young new f1) their cars over the last few years seemed to be too in favor of the lead drivers requirements or odd setups decisions overall (kimi /alonso steering setup (push pull rod??? cant remember) a few years ago which seemed to favor alonso ,but in reality none of them really ) , they've still managed to make half decent cars but all seem to be somewhat difficult or some bit lacking .

    Now and if you look at how things have gone with Lewis, when things have been off/mistakes made the odd time it created some momentary tense times ,if he was at ferrari that would have possibly played out the same as the last 2 top drivers.

    mercs set up has helped them i.e
    good cars - great engine - odd gimmick to keep them ahead - for the most part fantastical overall setup -good to excellent consistent driver.

    ferrari
    good cars- good to great powerfull engines- difficult to slighty odd "eccentric" ferrari setups - turbulent hierarchy/internal politics (as always) -good to great drivers at odds with these politics and setups


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    #1359
    geotrig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭geotrig


    recyclebin wrote: »
    When he drove for McLaren Honda all he did was whinge and get a few 7th places. Joining Renault won't be a whole lot different. Maybe a few 5th places at best. A podium if he's very lucky. That won't drive huge sponsorship.

    Is he not still driving for McLaren in Indy this year too?

    I'd take his whinging and driver craft over a lot of these featureless forgettable young fellas at least. Him at Mclaren was a disaster ,Alonso in general seems problematic for many reasons but god I'd take him over any numerous 20 odd year old stop gap drivers.


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    #1360
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭quokula


    geotrig wrote: »
    Its very hard to tell , Ferrari seem like a mess in some ways more than ever(their old ways seem at odds with this young new f1) their cars over the last few years seemed to be too in favor of the lead drivers requirements or odd setups decisions overall (kimi /alonso steering setup (push pull rod??? cant remember) a few years ago which seemed to favor alonso ,but in reality none of them really ) , they've still managed to make half decent cars but all seem to be somewhat difficult or some bit lacking .

    Now and if you look at how things have gone with Lewis, when things have been off/mistakes made the odd time it created some momentary tense times ,if he was at ferrari that would have possibly played out the same as the last 2 top drivers.

    mercs set up has helped them i.e
    good cars - great engine - odd gimmick to keep them ahead - for the most part fantastical overall setup -good to excellent consistent driver.

    ferrari
    good cars- good to great powerfull engines- difficult to slighty odd "eccentric" ferrari setups - turbulent hierarchy/internal politics (as always) -good to great drivers at odds with these politics and setups

    It would be wrong to imply that both Mercedes and Ferrari are in the same class of "good" cars. Mercedes in the hybrid era may as well have been in a different formula to the rest of the teams in most years. It's only when they ditched Rosberg for a third rate driver which allowed Lewis to easily win without putting in any effort, while Vettel and Verstappen in particular have worked miracles in their respective cars, that anyone has looked like coming close to having a chance of competing with the Mercedes.


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    #1361
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    recyclebin wrote: »
    When he drove for McLaren Honda all he did was whinge and get a few 7th places. Joining Renault won't be a whole lot different. Maybe a few 5th places at best. A podium if he's very lucky. That won't drive huge sponsorship.

    Is he not still driving for McLaren in Indy this year too?

    Yeah he did whinge a lot and he had a few decent results considering the car. But I always thought he was on a winner to nothing with the Honda engine. The analysis always favoured him no matter whether he was going forwards or backwards.

    When he was running well they said "wow Alonso dragging the car around, amazing performance". When he went backwards they said "in spite of alonso's best efforts the car is just a dog". In truth we hadn't a clue whether alonso was doing great or maybe he was having an off day. But the analysis always concluded alonso was doing brilliantly.

    In reality the mclaren wasn't really comparable to other cars that year because the engine was off the pace. There was no way to compare the chassis. The chassis might have actually been decent around some tracks and if it performed well, alonso certainly got all the credit for "dragging it around".


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    #1362
    geotrig
    Registered Users Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭geotrig


    quokula wrote: »
    It would be wrong to imply that both Mercedes and Ferrari are in the same class of "good" cars. Mercedes in the hybrid era may as well have been in a different formula to the rest of the teams in most years. It's only when they ditched Rosberg for a third rate driver which allowed Lewis to easily win without putting in any effort, while Vettel and Verstappen in particular have worked miracles in their respective cars, that anyone has looked like coming close to having a chance of competing with the Mercedes.

    Oh I totally agree "good cars" is generalising but its really like comparing a good apple and a good orange in a way.


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    #1363
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/silverstone-british-gp-government-quarantine/4793934

    British government not in favour of exception for British GP. Also difficult if quarantine is enforced for rest of season as UK team members have to quarantine for 14 days every time coming home


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    #1364
    donspeekinglesh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    recyclebin wrote: »
    Is he not still driving for McLaren in Indy this year too?
    He is, Arrow McLaren SP
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    In reality the mclaren wasn't really comparable to other cars that year because the engine was off the pace. There was no way to compare the chassis.

    Indeed that was a problem McLaren struggled with too. Initially they might have had a good car, but by the end of the Honda era it wasn't, but it took them far too long to realise that.


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    #1365
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Lots of close but no cigar examples given. At the end of the day it took Schumacher for them to break a 20 year drought and since the year after he left they haven't won another in over a decade.

    It took Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne for Ferrari to be dominant; Without these, Schumacher would have been lagging around 3rd or 4th row, collecting some podiums and the occasional win much like the various Berger, Alesi, Alonso and now Vettel have been doing.

    As was pointed out earlier on in another post, look at their management right now - it's very heavy in the marketing department. Even Arrivabene, who became team manager when Vettel joined, was a Philip Morris marketer. They haven't had the "racing pedigree" management since Todt left, essentially, slowly regressing to their typically "Italian Company" setup - the "big boss", be it the owner, president or whatnot, calls the shots regardless of their competency.

    That's what the Brawn/Todt management avoided - they steered the team in the "we know racing, we take the decisions. The company has an issue with it, it's with us - not the drivers, the engineers or whatnot". With them on the pitwall, Ferrari seriously risked winning a WDC with Eddie Irvine at the wheel; Barrichello would have been more than enough to easily win 2002 and 2004.

    With different managements, they succeeded to never win anything with Alonso and Vettel in the car. Unless something changes radically in Maranello, they manage to poach some big-name management guru (poach Toto from Mercedes, get Horner on board, court Brawn in to coming back...I dunno, something!), I fear for Leclerc's career.


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    #1366
    pyramuid man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭pyramuid man


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


    It took Jean Todt, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne for Ferrari to be dominant; Without these, Schumacher would have been lagging around 3rd or 4th row, collecting some podiums and the occasional win much like the various Berger, Alesi, Alonso and now Vettel have been doing.

    As was pointed out earlier on in another post, look at their management right now - it's very heavy in the marketing department. Even Arrivabene, who became team manager when Vettel joined, was a Philip Morris marketer. They haven't had the "racing pedigree" management since Todt left, essentially, slowly regressing to their typically "Italian Company" setup - the "big boss", be it the owner, president or whatnot, calls the shots regardless of their competency.

    That's what the Brawn/Todt management avoided - they steered the team in the "we know racing, we take the decisions. The company has an issue with it, it's with us - not the drivers, the engineers or whatnot". With them on the pitwall, Ferrari seriously risked winning a WDC with Eddie Irvine at the wheel; Barrichello would have been more than enough to easily win 2002 and 2004.

    With different managements, they succeeded to never win anything with Alonso and Vettel in the car. Unless something changes radically in Maranello, they manage to poach some big-name management guru (poach Toto from Mercedes, get Horner on board, court Brawn in to coming back...I dunno, something!), I fear for Leclerc's career.

    I have to agree. It's very easy to put the blame on the driver but when you look at the changes in management and personnel over Vettel's time with Ferrari, it has been a team in disarray.

    I have been thinking lately that maybe the decision may have come after winter testing and there may be something with the car and Ferraris direction may have led to the decision not to sign.

    Toto Wolff has apparently said that Vettel could be considered for a Mercedes drive and having a German driver again would be desirable.

    If Mercedes policy is to let both drivers race and whoever is coming out on top the championship takes the lead driver role, as they consistently say it is, a Hamilton / Vettel team could work very well. A total of 10 drivers championships between them would be great from a marketing perspective as a bonus.


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    #1367
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I wasn't trying to say it was all Schumacher but their successful era starts with him arriving and ends within 2 years of him leaving. Incredible mediocrity before and after in the last 4 decades. I'm assuming some of you saw the video I saw recently talking about the Ferrari management structure and yeah, they're a mess. For quite a while even their race-day management and organisation has been shambolic with forgetting tyres and making terrible strategy calls.


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    #1368
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




    First half of this or so touches on this season and what is happening etc


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    #1369
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    pyramuid man wrote: »
    ...

    Toto Wolff has apparently said that Vettel could be considered for a Mercedes drive and having a German driver again would be desirable.

    If Mercedes policy is to let both drivers race and whoever is coming out on top the championship takes the lead driver role, as they consistently say it is, a Hamilton / Vettel team could work very well. A total of 10 drivers championships between them would be great from a marketing perspective as a bonus.

    I doubt the appeal of a German driver in the German team. Mercedes presumably have the German market pretty much saturated. The real appeal would in an American driver where the market is huge compared to Germany and China which is an emerging market and will be huge in the future. Or just an English speaking Lewis Hamilton who keeps winning them the championships.

    Listening to Ted Kravits last night and he reckons the ferrari didn't suit Vettel last year and it won't suit him again this year based on feedback from testing so you could be right on that point.

    But ferrari wanted a driver to support LeClerc. Vettel didn't want to do that job so it was moot.

    Mercedes does generally allow the drivers to race but they also picked bottas because they estimated he would be decent but not as fast as Hamilton. It's just a less explicit way to achieve the same thing.

    Joe Saward reckons Vettel is holding out for the Mercedes seat in 2021. He reckons he doesn't want to retire but also has little interest in plodding about in a Renault and helping build a team for someone else to win a championship in a few years. There aren't even rumours of him talking to Renault. Height be happy to let alonso have first dibs while he focuses on merc. Renault might still be there as a fall back if alonso doesn't take it.

    He might have set his sights on the slim chance of Mercedes. Mercedes or retirement with the possibility of Renault as a fall back. And also a very slim chance of taking a year out ans beibg offered a drive at a top team in 2022.


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    #1370
    Sheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    Sheeps wrote: »
    My predictions for 2021.
    Bottas to who gives a ****,
    Vettel to Mercedes,
    Sainz to Ferrari,
    Ric to McLaren,
    Alonso to Renault



    https://www.planetf1.com/news/daimler-pushing-hard-for-sebastian-vettel/


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    #1371
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Sheeps wrote: »
    https://www.planetf1.com/news/daimler-pushing-hard-for-sebastian-vettel/

    It is only obvious they consider the option - it's no mystery Mercedes and Wolff have an appreciation for Vettel.

    On one hand, it'd be a fascinating prospect - the two most successful drivers in the best car on the grid, some competition for Hamilton. It'd be interesting to see if Lewis would relapse into these intermittent "you see my helmet in the car but I'm not really here" week ends like he used to have when partnering Rosberg.

    If Seb goes to Mercedes and finds his "mojo" again, it would hopefully put the final nail in Ferrari's management coffin, as Mercedes would be a mirror of "what Ferrari could've been"

    - Aldo Costa, ousted by Ferrari as he was "incompetent", goes to Merc and designs a dominant car;
    - James Allison, fired by Ferrari after his wife passed away (Marchionne had issues with the fact he wasn't in Maranello all the time), goes to Mercedes and manages the design of a dominant car;
    - Sebastian Vettel, ousted as a "problem", goes to Mercedes and thrives;

    I don't know what more proof they'd need to look in the mirror and finally go "is it the management so?" :D

    On the other hand, boy oh boy, you could hear the screams of "conspiracy" and "sabotage" from Hamilton's fans from the third moon of Neptune as soon as he has some technical issue. The comments section in that very article is already about pretty much that...


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    #1372
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    What I wouldn't give to hear what Niki Lauda would have thought to getting Vettel to join Mercedes-Benz.
    One year gone today.

    https://twitter.com/F1/status/1263058282677223425?s=19


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    #1373
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Interesting theory

    https://twitter.com/harrismonkey/status/1263150048898174979?s=19


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    #1374
    AMKC
    Registered Users Posts: 15,642 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    OSI wrote: »
    I don't see a future for Renault in F1. Next year they'll have no customers running engines, they'll just be a mediocre mid field team spending $150 million dollars to sell cars to nobody.

    What do you mean sell cars to nobody. There is plenty of people who love a stylish, classy, well built French car that is actually very good value too, as Renault have always been and are very well equipped as well. I myself would have a Megane over some boring German thing and a Scenic over any dull bloated German SUV. I have nothing against Germans I even have a German friend and they are funnier than led to believe but by do they make dull cars. Believe it or not but Germans actually prefer French cars over there own Cars.I think the motor industry will recover quicker than a lot of other industries including the Airline and Travel one.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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    #1375
    This is it
    Registered Users Posts: 5,217 ✭✭✭This is it


    AMKC wrote: »
    What do you mean sell cars to nobody. There is plenty of people who love a stylish, classy, well built French car that is actually very good value too, as Renault have always been and are very well equipped as well. I myself would have a Megane over some boring German thing and a Scenic over any dull bloated German SUV. I have nothing against Germans I even have a German friend and they are funnier than led to believe but by do they make dull cars. Believe it or not but Germans actually prefer French cars over there own Cars.I think the motor industry will recover quicker than a lot of other industries including the Airline and Travel one.

    Consumers worldwide don't agree,.not in the top 10 apparently


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    #1376
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    This is it wrote: »
    Consumers worldwide don't agree,.not in the top 10 apparently
    The Renault–Nissan–Mitsubishi Alliance is a French-Japanese strategic partnership between the automobile manufacturers Renault (based in Boulogne-Billancourt, France), Nissan (based in Yokohama, Japan) and Mitsubishi Motors (based in Tokyo, Japan), which together sell more than 1 in 9 vehicles worldwide.

    It's a bit of a misleading chart, to be fair.


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    #1377
    rock22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭rock22


    OSI wrote: »
    I don't see a future for Renault in F1. Next year they'll have no customers running engines, they'll just be a mediocre mid field team spending $150 million dollars to sell cars to nobody.

    I think OSI is referring to customers for their F1 engine. Without customers, Renault will have to bear the full cost of ongoing development .

    Renault , globally , are also in a bit of a mess, with their alliance with Nissan sure to cause problems in the future. F1 is probably a distraction( an expensive distraction) for the board, at the moment .


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    #1378
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,410 ✭✭✭Harika


    Latest rumour is Russell to Mercedes next year. Two Alphas won't work, bottas is a winner but no championship contender. Russell from the junior team next in line. If all fails, ric is parked at McLaren


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    #1379
    g1983d
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭g1983d


    Harika wrote: »
    Latest rumour is Russell to Mercedes next year. Two Alphas won't work, bottas is a winner but no championship contender. Russell from the junior team next in line. If all fails, ric is parked at McLaren

    Ric is already at McLaren
    What about Ocon, is he not a merc driver too and represented by Toto?
    Maybe I'm wrong but would he not get the nod over Russell.
    Maybe its nostalgia for Vettel but still think he is going to get a merc seat.
    Where does Bottas end up with all of this , out of F1, back in Williams


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    #1380
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,998 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    g1983d wrote: »
    Ric is already at McLaren
    What about Ocon, is he not a merc driver too and represented by Toto?
    Maybe I'm wrong but would he not get the nod over Russell.
    Maybe its nostalgia for Vettel but still think he is going to get a merc seat.
    Where does Bottas end up with all of this , out of F1, back in Williams

    Lots of midfield teams would have Bottas. Maybe not for the money he's on because he's being paid as a driver that helps win the constructors and will be Hamilton's no.2 when needed.

    Ocon is not strictly a Merc driver anymore but I don't really think it makes much practical difference. If Mercedes offered him a seat he would obviously take it. It just means that he can also drive for whoever else he wants which presumably his merc contract would have only allowed him to drive for them (or through a deal with them)


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    #1381
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,506 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    could vettel go to formula e


This discussion has been closed.
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