Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

cython · 18-04-2017 2:43pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

This is beyond any reasonable doubt what Varadkar intended when he wrote the new statutory instrument: no cycle tracks are mandatory for cyclists to use, apart from cycle tracks that go through pedestrian zones, and cycle tracks situated in contraflow bus lanes.

My understanding is that the SI refers to contraflow cycle tracks, not cycle tracks in contraflow bus lanes. Bicycles are already allowed into contraflow bus lanes, but the provision in this act refers to contraflow cycle tracks on a normal one-way street, so that at least bicycles travelling against traffic in them are under an onus to do so in a controlled manner. Slightly ironic that you prefaced it with "beyond any reasonable doubt", as an aside

tomasrojo · 18-04-2017 3:11pm

cython wrote: »

My understanding is that the SI refers to contraflow cycle tracks, not cycle tracks in contraflow bus lanes. Bicycles are already allowed into contraflow bus lanes, but the provision in this act refers to contraflow cycle tracks on a normal one-way street, so that at least bicycles travelling against traffic in them are under an onus to do so in a controlled manner. Slightly ironic that you prefaced it with "beyond any reasonable doubt", as an aside

Yes, you're right. My mistake. Writing off the top of my head.

The "beyond reasonable doubt" is a reference to the notion that the current SI by accident or by intent makes tracks obligatory to use in all circumstances. It is beyond reasonable doubt that the minister intended his SI to make them not mandatory to use, with two exceptions, and if the text says differently, it is because of ambiguity of language, which can be resolved by referring to the, in this instance, perfectly clear intentions of the then minister.

Roland27 · 18-04-2017 4:10pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yes, you're right. My mistake. Writing off the top of my head.

The "beyond reasonable doubt" is a reference to the notion that the current SI by accident or by intent makes tracks obligatory to use in all circumstances. It is beyond reasonable doubt that the minister intended his SI to make them not mandatory to use, with two exceptions, and if the text says differently, it is because of ambiguity of language, which can be resolved by referring to the, in this instance, perfectly clear intentions of the then minister.

tomasrojo / cython: thats very helpful, was very unclear on use of cycle tracks, thanks very much.

cython · 18-04-2017 4:27pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yes, you're right. My mistake. Writing off the top of my head.

The "beyond reasonable doubt" is a reference to the notion that the current SI by accident or by intent makes tracks obligatory to use in all circumstances. It is beyond reasonable doubt that the minister intended his SI to make them not mandatory to use, with two exceptions, and if the text says differently, it is because of ambiguity of language, which can be resolved by referring to the, in this instance, perfectly clear intentions of the then minister.

Ah yeah, I completely knew what you were getting at with the "beyond reasonable doubt" qualifier, but couldn't resist the smart ass opportunity when it sat up like that :pac:

tomasrojo · 18-04-2017 4:29pm

Roland27 wrote: »

tomasrojo / cython: thats very helpful, was very unclear on use of cycle tracks, thanks very much.

No problem. Irishcycle.com has a lot of coverage of this story (think he broke the story about the Department of Transport claim that Varadkar had never rescinded obligatory use), and he doesn't make basic factual errors the way I just did!

tomasrojo · 18-04-2017 4:31pm

cython wrote: »

Ah yeah, I completely knew what you were getting at with the "beyond reasonable doubt" qualifier, but couldn't resist the smart ass opportunity when it sat up like that :pac:

As a holder of a smart-ass licence myself, I know they can be revoked for passing up sitters like that.

WAPAIC · 18-04-2017 6:00pm

I'd love to organise a day of "action" where a large number of cyclists around the country fix some sort of camera to their head/helmet/bike and actually report everything that happened that day. Don't go looking for it, don't be a plonker, just report something if it happens, however small.

Corca Baiscinn · 18-04-2017 7:46pm

D3PO, Robert Foster, Cram, and maybe someone else, (just taking last 24 hours of this thread) the scenarios you are describing are shocking in the extreme. The Min for Justice, Min for Transport, Garda, Dub Bus Management and Unions all need to make it clear that it is NEVER ok for a bus-driver to take the law into his/her own hands, act as an enforcer, endanger a cyclist etc etc etc. How to get them to do that though, whether jointly or separately? By all means complain to Dub Bus, Traffic Watch, etc but would any of you be willing to go public and have your story covered by one of the more sympathetic journalists who cycles, ie Cathal Mc Coille, Matt Cooper, Ronan somebody from IT? Alternatively, or also, could you lobby your TD from FG or Indep to set up a meeting with Shane Ross or F Fitzgerald? Posting on Boards elicits a lot of sympathy and fellow-feeling from other "there but for the grace of God" cyclists but I don't think anything is going to change until we kick up an almighty fuss and get media attention. D3PO was it you who said you could so easily have gone under the wheel of the bus and been the next cycling statistic? Cram, you are so right re basic human decency being at stake here, never mind legality. Saw an interesting post today from Phl Skelton on those lines, that respect is due to us because of our humanity and doesn't have to be "earned" by good behaviour. Def looks like the "mandatory" use needs testing/amending asap too.

punisher5112 · 18-04-2017 7:53pm

I would also like to add it ain't always the person in the vehicle.

I've been driving and had many many near misses of cyclists going on a rampage or just putting themselves into dangerous situations.

I've had them hold onto rear of vehicle at speed and while going around a bend or full turn go up the inside/outside where they could easily go under the rear wheels or even be pinned by the body of the large vehicles I would be driving.

Share the road and try and stay as safe as possible.

Earlier had an incident with a 4x4 towing a trailer with no lights jam on to try cause a collision, driver ended up wanting a fight words exchanged and few digs thrown..

Was well able for him and after he cooled down and all apologetic we continued on he was actually quite upset he had flown off the handle and changed his tune. Now have a new friend;-)

Corca Baiscinn · 18-04-2017 8:01pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would also like to add it ain't always the person in the vehicle.

I've been driving and had many many near misses of cyclists going on a rampage or just putting themselves into dangerous situations.

I've had them hold onto rear of vehicle at speed and while going around a bend or full turn go up the inside/outside where they could easily go under the rear wheels or even be pinned by the body of the large vehicles I would be driving.

Share the road and try and stay as safe as possible.

Right now, this thread is discussing serious punishment/intimidation attempts by drivers of large powerful vehicles on cyclists, so could we stick to that? Of course some cyclists are dicks as are some motorists, motor-cyclists, pedestrians etc but what cyclist X does/did when you were driving has no bearing on what happened to cyclists A, B and C in Fairview or on the N11.

Chuchote · 18-04-2017 8:15pm

Could we have a special thead for all "This cyclist did that" interpolations, the way there's one for all the people who want to fight about helmets?

punisher5112 · 18-04-2017 8:32pm

I'm just giving a point that's all.

Last week was going past a cyclist safely when at next side road on the right car comes out as cyclist is at that point. I was amazed he stayed upright as he had to go off the road onto stones and rough grass. Stopped at roundabout see was he OK and he was very pissed off understandably.

Annie get your Run · 18-04-2017 8:32pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Cram, you are so right re basic human decency being at stake here, never mind legality. Saw an interesting post today from Phl Skelton on those lines, that respect is due to us because of our humanity and doesn't have to be "earned" by good behaviour. Def looks like the "mandatory" use needs testing/amending asap too.

Just on this, had a ridiculously close pass this evening. The car was so close I almost felt it skim me as she passed and naturally the bike wobbled with the draft. Of course she got stuck at the junction which was about 100m ahead, I cycled up beside her and said she had passed me far too closely and that I was a human being too, her response? What's that got to do with anything....!! There was no talking to her, as far as she was concerned she had done nothing wrong - I have to say I went off almost in tears with pure frustration - why do motorists have such little regard for their fellow road users? :mad: As far as I'm concerned we get no support from the government, RSA, Garda or local councils who have a duty of care to protect everyone. Things were good for about 5 mins after the publicity on the RPDL but they've actually gotten worse now. There's no chance I"m giving up the bike and I've been thinking about getting a camera for a wile now, I probably need to to just go and do that. I would never treat anyone else the way I'm treated daily on the road - I know it's not every motorist and there are plenty of great ones out there (I can't help feeling those ones are also cyclists...) but it's every.single.day.

Corca Baiscinn · 18-04-2017 9:02pm

https://www.facebook.com/stayinaliveat1.5/posts/1416976815032997:0

This is the Phil Skelton post re Respect I referred to earlier, from his FB page
You've often heard it in regard to cyclists..
We won't respect cyclists because THEY run red lights..THEY don't pay 'road tax'...THEY aren't insured etc...
Let's take a look 👀
You can walk out into the street, see hundreds of people whom youâ€™ve never met before in your life, and you can respect them. You can let them do what theyâ€™re doing, wear what theyâ€™re wearing, say what theyâ€™re saying. Itâ€™s perfectly normal and natural and â€“ by and large â€“ everyone does this. Itâ€™s basic respect that we all have for each other by default.
Yet, somehow, many people seem to have a philosophical problem with extending this to the idea of driving in such a way as to simply ensure that these people stay alive.
EARNED BY WHOM?
Bicycle riders across the globe do not have a secret meeting place where THEY all decide to behave exactly the same. The notion of collective responsibility is just nuts..
If theyâ€™d never met, how can the driver have determined whether a particular cyclist had or had not â€œearnedâ€ sufficient respect.
If the idea of earning respect is ludicrous, the idea that it should be earned by others on a victimâ€™s behalf is sheer lunacy.
If a teenager was stabbed to death in the street, would people comment to the effect that some other teenagers are rude and noisy, and teenagers need to earn respect?
If a woman was violently raped, would people comment to the effect that some other women are flirty and wear too few clothes, and women need to earn respect?
If a driver was fatally injured in a road rage attack, would people comment to the effect that some other drivers regularly exceed the speed limit, jump red lights, use mobile phones, tailgate, read the newspaper, fail to ensure their tyres are legal, are distracted by satnavs or park illegally, and drivers need to earn respect?
I suspect not..
Yet on many occasions, the death of a teenager, a woman or a driver who happens to be on a bicycle at the time can be hideously rationalised by some as unimportant, on the basis that some other people jump lights. Not even them â€“ as if that might justify killing or injuring â€“ but people who have nothing to do with them.
HOW HARD IS IT NOT TO KILL SOMEONE?
When behind the wheel of the car, contrary to what many would believe, people do know deep down what their vehicle can do when things go wrong. Consciously or not, they know it can easily kill: we all have the same basic instinct for the physics of life-threateningly fast and heavy objects and weâ€™ve all been taught as children that you donâ€™t step in front of a car because it will kill you. But, for whatever reason, people blank this out when they get behind the wheel. They donâ€™t make the very easy and simple choice of bringing it to the front of their mind.
All it really takes to make people safe is to decide never to kill someone.
All it takes is to think about how you would feel if you did. To think about how you would feel if someone else killed your son, or your wife, or anyone for whom you cared deeply. All it takes is to think about that whenever you turn the ignition key.
Yes, for reasons Iâ€™ve yet to fathom, many people are reluctant to adopt this frame of mind. How hard is it to simply decide that the most important aspect of driving is not to kill?
RESPECT IS A CHOICE
Respect is not earned. Respect can â€“ should â€“ be voluntarily given, not least because those who need it may not have the opportunity to earn it. To respect people is a choice. In most aspects of life people choose to do so unquestioningly. Yet not on the road.
To use this excuse to diminish the value of lives lost on the road is cheap and morally bankrupt, and is a cover for a baffling reluctance to make just one decision: that not killing someone is the most important thing you will do today.
The most basic respect of all is surely to respect someoneâ€™s mere existence.
If you feel that such a fundamental level of respect needs to be earned, then you are a deeply dangerous human being.

looie · 18-04-2017 9:02pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

why do motorists have such little regard for their fellow road users?

Don't necessarily disagree with you (had a car today paying no attention to the fact that a cycle lane existed, not fun) but at the same time the amount of cyclists breaking the lights was equally frustrating. Basically all road users just need to use some common sense and it would make a world of difference.

Danbo! · 18-04-2017 9:06pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

...I have to say I went off almost in tears with pure frustration - why do motorists have such little regard for their fellow road users? :mad: ...

I know the feeling. I'm generally very calm and if I do end up talking to a driver I do my best to keep my cool and explain my point of view, but the last few weeks I've gotten very tense.

The accident where the poor girl was killed in templeogue and Friday's accident in Harolds cross are on my commute, and with these in mind I've been seeing some awful behaviour. Had a skip truck come into the bus lane inbound towards Emmet bridge this morning, no indication, no mirror checks. Just before he reaches the traffic jam, he realises the right lane is actually clear to go straight so darts out of the bus lane, again no indication, and must have been doing 55-60km/h over the bridge. In a bloody skip truck in rush hour traffic.

I was absolutely seething. It wasn't a close call but with his quick jerky driving any cyclist anywhere near him would have been taken out, it just wasnt possible in the timeframe for him to possibly check mirrors or blind spots. I really wanted to have a go at him given Friday's incident but I didnt want to get near him even stopped.

I f**king love commuting on the bike but I've found it very stressful recently.

punisher5112 · 18-04-2017 9:06pm

Red mist sets in in a lot of cases.
Some would have terrible spaciail awareness.
Some do it as a punishment of sorts.
Some believe the road is there's and screw anyone that is in the way or could hold them up an extra few seconds.

Madness what goes on to be honest.

Teach it in school at a young age or things will never change.

Corca Baiscinn · 18-04-2017 9:07pm

He has also shared this post from PSNI who seem to be about to emulate WMP in having plain clothes police on bikes watching out for close passes but also for errant cyclists. Border Poll anyone!

PSNI CraigavonLike Page
Yesterday at 13:00 Â·
Afternoon folks,

Cyclists. Never a topic that gets much attention on social media...yeah right!

Over the next while, you'll hopefully start to see "See the cyclist" logos appearing. This is an initiative started this week by our colleagues in Belfast but it sounds like a cracking good idea so we're already looking at how we can implement it down here.

This operation involves plain clothes officers and video evidence! Whilst that may sound fairly sneaky, it's actually pretty low tech, and very simple.

We're going to have officers out in plain clothes on bikes with cameras attached. They will be cycling around, posing as normal cyclists, but keeping an eye out for the 'close pass' when drivers don't give a safe space when overtaking cyclists, or when they force cyclists off a road. They'll also be looking out for any offences other cyclists commit. Running red lights, cycling on the footpath, cycling more than 2 abreast etc

Basically, if you take a chance and don't treat a cyclist with the respect and safety that you should, you could be on camera! We'll have uniformed colleagues nearby in support that will be called in to deal with any motorists or cyclists who are witnessed committing offences.

This operation, wherever it is in place, will have 2 phases. The first is education. Unless it's really dangerous, we won't be prosecuting people straight away. We'll be talking to as many drivers as possible and getting the message out there. That will soon be replaced with the second phase, prosecutions, tickets etc if it continues.

The roads are for everyone. There is no doubt that in the cyclist v motorist debate there are good and bad on both sides. This is about making our roads safer, sharing that road to zero, and lowering the number of casualties we have every year.

So what can you do? Well, it is called 'See The Cyclist'. We want cyclists to have lights fitted day and night, always being prepared for poor visibility. High viz clothing makes what is a small object a lot more visible. We also want cyclists to fit cameras. If you witness or are victim of any dangerous drivers, you can bring that footage to us.

Equally, drivers, it's about looking out for cyclists. Give them as much room as you would a car, remembering that they have as much right to be on the road as you do. If you have a dash cam or witness offences, you can do likewise and report it to us.

So beware. Next time you scrape by a bike with no consideration, it could be us!

M

#KeepingPeopleSafe

#ShareTheRoadToZero

#SeeTheCyclist

Fighting Tao · 18-04-2017 9:14pm

I love the replies that Craigavon PSNI give to people being idiots replying to their post as highlighted by Corca Baiscinn above. https://www.facebook.com/PSNI.Craigavon/photos/a.390441237658321.78651.380466805322431/1268144083221361/?type=3&theater

Annie get your Run · 18-04-2017 9:45pm

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I love the replies that Craigavon PSNI give to people being idiots replying to their post as highlighted by Corca Basicinn above. https://www.facebook.com/PSNI.Craigavon/photos/a.390441237658321.78651.380466805322431/1268144083221361/?type=3&theater

Lol, that's cheered me up

am going to send that to RSA DOT and AGS tomorrow. For all the good it'll do!

Excellent article above too, certainly sums up how I feel most days.

RacoonQueen · 18-04-2017 9:46pm

RobertFoster wrote: »

No contact details for the Traffic Corps, and the Garda phoned from a private number.

Yes, that's it. There's even a sign at the bus stop https://goo.gl/maps/iEQWVQxk7EM2

I was blared out of it along there, the one time I cycled there about 4 years ago by a driver not happy I was on the road (and we were all sitting at a red light at the time). I think I know someone who drives that route actually...

This thread has just taught me that I'm glad I don't commute by bike anymore.

CramCycle · 18-04-2017 9:51pm

Someone from Craigavon PSNI, not only cycles but has a fairly hefty amount of common sense and respect for everyone. They get my thumbs up

Mercian Pro · 18-04-2017 10:13pm

mp31 wrote: »

Ring Dublin Bus to make a complaint even if you don't have your own video footage. Tell them the route, the bus number, the time of the incident and they will be able to locate the driver and hopefully the video footage from the on-board video cameras. Get them to ring you back with a case number and make a call to Traffic Watch with that case number to report the incident to the Garda.

Posted here about an incident at the end of February where a Dublin Bus driver cut in on me on a combined bus/bike lane along by Glasnevin Cemetery. He was pissed off that I hadn't gone on the alternative bike lane on the footpath. This is regularly blocked by illegally parked cars so I stay on the road.

I complained with details to both Dublin Bus and the GardaÃ. Dublin Bus issued a very courteous reply and stated that they had identified the driver and that "whatever action is deemed necessary to prevent a recurrence will be taken". Despite two reminders, all I have heard from the Gardai in that a member from Finglas GS will be in touch. I'm no longer holding my breath.

Chuchote · 18-04-2017 10:36pm

The phone business is beyond a laughing matter now. Cycling today I saw two people reading their phone at lights; both of them were still reading it (one as she leaned over to put it down, so not even her face was facing forward) as they drew away from the lights.

CramCycle · 18-04-2017 10:45pm

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Dublin Bus issued a very courteous reply and stated that they had identified the driver and that "whatever action is deemed necessary to prevent a recurrence will be taken".

I got the same from BE, and it is just unacceptable IMO. It is the weirdest thing. I didn't want to press charges, I did not want him fired, I wanted either a Sorry (I would have shaken his hand and said no worries) or for him to see a picture of my kids (not fair, not all cyclists have kids and that does not make me more important, but we all have friends or family) and just accept that, it was not worth it.

That's what gets me in the end, I have made mistakes, reacted incorrectly or inappropriately but I would like to think, I realised afterwards (I might not have, which is harder to admit, I often do not realise till I have ranted here and someone points it out to me). They may not realise and that to me is oddly, far more upsetting or annoying than the incident itself.

CramCycle · 18-04-2017 10:59pm

Chuchote wrote: »

The phone business is beyond a laughing matter now. Cycling today I saw two people reading their phone at lights; both of them were still reading it (one as she leaned over to put it down, so not even her face was facing forward) as they drew away from the lights.

Your getting complacent if you only saw two (no offence intended). I have a longer commute than some but I probably see two on mobiles before my first traffic light (under two minutes from my door). 20 in the first five minutes, after that it actually gets noticeable. I have even gotten to the point where I only notice the bad ones after I get half way in, and wonder how much less traffic would be if everyone could tolerate no phones or make up for 30 minutes in the morning.

ED E · 19-04-2017 1:05am

In about 20 mins of a homebound route I'll see a minimum of 20 phone zombies, but normally more like 40. Less in the mornings.

Chuchote · 19-04-2017 6:34am

ED E wrote: »

In about 20 mins of a homebound route I'll see a minimum of 20 phone zombies, but normally more like 40. Less in the mornings.

It's quite incredible how little this is policed. Fish in a barrel, or maybe, since it's so deadly, piranha in a barrel. A US study:

http://blog.zendrive.com/distracted-driving/

Crocked · 19-04-2017 8:34am

Two near misses on a spin the other day

First as I was heading up the ramp at the Pitch and Putt course just before you drop down to Johnny Foxes, Ballyedmond road? it's a narrow twisty road and a taxi passed, but just as I was thinking it was on the silly side rather than dangerous side of things another car followed, this one was definitely dangerous as they had no sight line at all apart from just following the taxi in front who was a couple of seconds ahead of them. Inevitably a car was coming the other direction around the blind bend, couple of tenths of a second and it'd have been carnage. Given the standard of driving of the second car passing I've little doubt in my mind that if a decision had to be made to either have a head on collision or take out the two young lads from the club who had just passed me, it'd be the young lads would have paid the price.

Second one was as I was descending past the Mick Wall memorial on stocking road, there was a car literally blocking the entire road at the entrance to the house there. Dropped the anchors and stopped in plenty of time. All the while the driver looking at me like a rabbit in the headlights. I stopped and waited for them to complete what ever stupid maneuver they were attempting but when they stalled I just went around them via the driveway. On the plus side I got to test the braking to the limit on some new wheels, had to feather the rear bake a bit to stop it locking up and fishtailing.

I should put the cameras back on the bike.

Pinch Flat · 19-04-2017 9:21am

Coming in to work today, I was alerted by some guy beeping his horn. This started at the hill approaching the junction of Bridge Street / High Street, just at Christchurch. The roads are quiet these mornings, and I tend to take the lane anyway. Plenty of room to pass me on my right. The beeping was constant and sometimes continuous. It was happening perhaps 100 meters or so behind me. It got my attention a few times, I glanced around and could see a car behind a cyclist, travelling at the cyclists speed. There was plenty of room to pass on the right - three lanes as you approach Christchurch, then effectively a dual carriageway to St. Patrick's cathedral.

Anyway, the horn blaring continued around through Jury's down the hill at Patrick Street and around the corner to the junction of Kevin Street. The cyclist behind me (the subject of the horn blaring) caught up with me at the lights and said some nutcase had tailgated him, horn blaring, all the way from the quays to the junction at Kevin Street, where the driver now got caught in traffic. Personally, I would have found it hard to inquire as to what exactly the problem was, given the roads are quiet and there's plenty of room to pass, but he let it go. Mentioned reporting it to the guards, but not sure if he got any details. I pass the cyclist regularly on my commute, so would be happy to go as a witness to this.

Cars send people mad people, be careful out there.

Chuchote · 19-04-2017 9:42am

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Coming in to work today, I was alerted by some guy beeping his horn. This started at the hill approaching the junction of Bridge Street / High Street, just at Christchurch. The roads are quiet these mornings, and I tend to take the lane anyway. Plenty of room to pass me on my right. The beeping was constant and sometimes continuous. It was happening perhaps 100 meters or so behind me. It got my attention a few times, I glanced around and could see a car behind a cyclist, travelling at the cyclists speed. There was plenty of room to pass on the right - three lanes as you approach Christchurch, then effectively a dual carriageway to St. Patrick's cathedral.

Anyway, the horn blaring continued around through Jury's down the hill at Patrick Street and around the corner to the junction of Kevin Street. The cyclist behind me (the subject of the horn blaring) caught up with me at the lights and said some nutcase had tailgated him, horn blaring, all the way from the quays to the junction at Kevin Street, where the driver now got caught in traffic. Personally, I would have found it hard to inquire as to what exactly the problem was, given the roads are quiet and there's plenty of room to pass, but he let it go. Mentioned reporting it to the guards, but not sure if he got any details. I pass the cyclist regularly on my commute, so would be happy to go as a witness to this.

Cars send people mad people, be careful out there.

Time for more people to have cameras. I've noticed drivers behaving rather more carefully in the couple of days since I put the camera on. When they see it, they suddenly start behaving.

Pinch Flat · 19-04-2017 9:59am

Chuchote wrote: »

Time for more people to have cameras. I've noticed drivers behaving rather more carefully in the couple of days since I put the camera on. When they see it, they suddenly start behaving.

I have a dual light on my bike - one's as strobe, the other a flood light. It's a kind of odd looking thing. The odd time' I'll point at it like it's a camera and it seems t work. It's a bit like those fake CCTV camera you put on your house.:pac:

But yeah, a proper one would be a worthwhile investment. It's going to be crazy next week when the schools go back......

D3PO · 19-04-2017 11:48am

Thank you for all your comments re my near miss yesterday. I sent in a complaint to Dublin bus so lets see what happens. I don't hold out much hope of them doing anything other than pay lipservice to the complaint based on others similar experiences but lets see.

Over a day on and I still feel the adrenaline from it.

mp31 · 19-04-2017 11:53am

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Posted here about an incident at the end of February where a Dublin Bus driver cut in on me on a combined bus/bike lane along by Glasnevin Cemetery. He was pissed off that I hadn't gone on the alternative bike lane on the footpath. This is regularly blocked by illegally parked cars so I stay on the road.

I complained with details to both Dublin Bus and the GardaÃ. Dublin Bus issued a very courteous reply and stated that they had identified the driver and that "whatever action is deemed necessary to prevent a recurrence will be taken". Despite two reminders, all I have heard from the Gardai in that a member from Finglas GS will be in touch. I'm no longer holding my breath.

Please don't let that stop you from reporting incidents in the future. As for the current complaint I'd suggest ringing Traffic Watch again and telling them that no one has called you back.

Danbo! · 19-04-2017 11:54am

Was an interesting post on Dash cam thread in motors this morning, general gist was some guy listed a load of things that annoy him about cyclists and that they're a hazard on the roads and there should be a penalty point system. The list was the usual - breaking lights, no high viz or helmets, etc.. The post, along with my reply, have since been deleted because it's "not the place", but his attitude seems in line with what everyone is reporting in this thread tbh.

A bunch of cyclists not playing by the rules giving all of us a bad name, along with poor interpretation of the rules, along with just downright ignorance, resulting in not giving a sh*t about cyclists.

robyntmorton · 19-04-2017 12:01pm

The trouble with it is that motorists only ever notice the bad ones. If you were to ask a motorist to tell you how many cyclists they passed on the way to work this morning, they wouldn't have a clue, unless of course one of them broke a red light, took the lane or so on.

Really, as cyclists we only really pay attention to the bad drivers too, but the bad drivers have tonnes of vehicle around them, which can do even more damage.

Tenzor07 · 19-04-2017 12:05pm

Danbo! wrote: »

A bunch of cyclists not playing by the rules giving all of us a bad name, along with poor interpretation of the rules, along with just downright ignorance, resulting in not giving a sh*t about cyclists.

Firstly though, who's "all of us?" I mean.. bicyclists are one of the most diverse group of people out there.. kinda like.. society really!

Also respect from motorists towards cyclists(many of whom are motorists also) should not have to be earned it should be a given!

Tenzor07 · 19-04-2017 12:07pm

robyntmorton wrote: »

The trouble with it is that motorists only ever notice the bad ones. If you were to ask a motorist to tell you how many cyclists they passed on the way to work this morning, they wouldn't have a clue, unless of course one of them broke a red light, took the lane or so on.

I pondered that one...in a lot of near misses or close passes, the common response by the motorist is "Sorry mate I didn't see you"... therefore, how are bicyclists noticed when they go through a red traffic signal?

Danbo! · 19-04-2017 12:08pm

robyntmorton wrote: »

The trouble with it is that motorists only ever notice the bad ones. If you were to ask a motorist to tell you how many cyclists they passed on the way to work this morning, they wouldn't have a clue, unless of course one of them broke a red light, took the lane or so on.

Really, as cyclists we only really pay attention to the bad drivers too, but the bad drivers have tonnes of vehicle around them, which can do even more damage.

This was the basis of my, now deleted, reply. In a car, you might see hundreds of cyclists pass you, but only a limited number of cars around you. On a bike, you will see hundreds of cars but only a few cyclists around you.

Either way, the majority of cars behave well and are therefore unremarkable, but you'll remember the bad ones. But for some reason cyclists are an easy target for some people to write off as "all the same".

Danbo! · 19-04-2017 12:11pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Firstly though, who's "all of us?" I mean.. bicyclists are one of the most diverse group of people out there.. kinda like.. society really!

Anyone who uses a bike. Can I not categorise cyclists into a collective group?

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Also respect from motorists towards cyclists(many of whom are motorists also) should not have to be earned it should be a given!

I never said it should be earned. I'm saying that there is a minority of road users out there that believe this respect, whether earned or given, can be revoked from all cyclists based on their own experiences or ignorance of the rules.

tomasrojo · 19-04-2017 12:13pm

I have to say that the narrative surrounding bad drivers, at least here, is just that there are SOME terrible drivers out there. Despite the claims may by blow-ins, nobody very often says anything like "I hate motorists". It would be silly anyway, as you'd hate most or a very substantial minority of all the adults you know.

Tenzor07 · 19-04-2017 12:13pm

Danbo! wrote: »

Either way, the majority of cars behave well and are therefore unremarkable, but you'll remember the bad ones. But for some reason cyclists are an easy target for some people to write off as "all the same".

Sorry, but the majority break speed limits daily, so much so that casual speeding is almost socially acceptable! (though not widely publicised)
Also such things as use of a mobile phone, it's an epidemic, figures put the rate of which people look at there smartphones as being around 110 times a day, even a 2 second glance at 80kph is enough to leave you essentially blind for almost 2 basketball court lengths!

AndrewJRenko · 19-04-2017 12:16pm

Danbo! wrote: »

Either way, the majority of cars behave well and are therefore unremarkable, but you'll remember the bad ones.

82% of motorists break urban speed limits, according to the RSA Speed Survey.

So that's 18% who behave well.

tomasrojo · 19-04-2017 12:17pm

And parking on the footway is endemic. In fact, motorists frequently eschew the legal option (parking fully on the road), to climb up on the footway (which is illegal) as a "courtesy" to other drivers.

I suspect that that's the closest analogue to red light breaking by cyclists. Speeding has a disproportionately high effect on road injuries and fatalities. Footway parking is just uncivil and sometimes places vulnerable people in hazardous situations, or just makes their life that bit worse. Sometimes it's unbelievably dickish.

tomasrojo · 19-04-2017 12:17pm

"Eschew" seems to be my new favourite word.

Tenzor07 · 19-04-2017 12:20pm

Danbo! wrote: »

Anyone who uses a bike. Can I not categorise cyclists into a collective group?

that would be an ecumenical matter!

Though it's a bit like saying everyone from X country or X race behaves in a certain manner.. It's just too broad a statement to bunch a group of very diverse people into one group and just re-enforces the "Them and us" cyclist Vs. Motorist debate that the media love!

Danbo! · 19-04-2017 12:25pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

that would be an ecumenical matter!

Though it's a bit like saying everyone from X country or X race behaves in a certain manner.. It's just too broad a statement to bunch a group of very diverse people into one group and just re-enforces the "Them and us" cyclist Vs. Motorist debate that the media love!

That is exactly my point though. A few people on bikes behaving badly results in some people losing respect for all cyclists.

Tenzor07 · 19-04-2017 12:31pm

Danbo! wrote: »

That is exactly my point though. A few people on bikes behaving badly results in some people losing respect for all cyclists.

Yea sorry, just don't get how two people, say a cyclist and a motorist who have never met, just happen to "lose respect" for each other, despite never having met?
How can the driver have determined whether a cyclist had or had not “earned” sufficient respect?

Not saying it's your exact opinion but "bikes behaving badly" seems just like an excuse not to admonish bad or potentially dangerous behavior by motorists..

tomasrojo · 19-04-2017 12:33pm

I don't think a few people behaving badly results in other people losing respect. The others just seize on the bad behaviour to rationalise their dislike.

It's the unfortunate position of being in a minority or out-group. Individuals are treated as representative of the whole in a way that never happens with the majority.

Ian Walker writes about this a fair bit:
https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-25/edition-9/interview-vulnerable-road-users

See especially the section that beings:

A report from the Transport Research Laboratory and University of Strathclyde a few years ago led by Lynn Basford (PDF via tinyurl.com/7qk877b) suggested that there’s some classic social psychology at work here – cyclists represent an outgroup such that the usual outgroup effects are seen, particularly overgeneralisation of negative behaviour and attributes – ‘They all ride through red lights all the time’. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that something of this sort is going on.

Danbo! · 19-04-2017 12:37pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yea sorry, just don't get how two people, say a cyclist and a motorist who have never met, just happen to "lose respect" for each other, despite never having met?
How can the driver have determined whether a cyclist had or had not â€œearnedâ€ sufficient respect?

Not saying it's your exact opinion but "bikes behaving badly" seems just like an excuse not to admonish bad or potentially dangerous behavior by motorists..

I was just saying that the general gist of the post in the motors forum had tones of that, and that I could not understand why someone would decide to decide to disrespect all cyclists based on their interactions with some. Basically, I see motorists driving poorly daily but do not all of a sudden have the opinion all motorists are a hazard, so I'm wondering why it (at least seems to) happen with cyclists.

Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

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