Journalism and cycling

magicbastarder · 04-10-2018 11:36am

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

CramCycle · 04-10-2018 11:37am

Fian wrote: »

Most rural roads are 100km/h not 80km/h.

Irelands speed limits are based on road designations. National roads are 100kmph (N**) but all Local and regional (L**** and R***) roads are 80kmph unless with special exemption.

In fact very little of them are 80km/h in my experience - it is 100 km/h in teh countryside dropping down in towns and villages.

It really depends on the road but you will find you are incorrect, the majority of roads in the countryside are not 100kmph, the majority are 80kmph or less

of course limits are not targets and people generally drive at a speed appropriate to the road not 100km/h.

Alas if this were true then there would not be so many road deaths.

meeeeh · 04-10-2018 11:56am

magicbastarder wrote: »

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

Yes it happens. That's also why people don't get sentenced for it. You might disagree with law, court, judge, Guards but for now you opinion doesn't count as superior.

CramCycle · 04-10-2018 12:26pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes it happens. That's also why people don't get sentenced for it. You might disagree with law, court, judge, Guards but for now you opinion doesn't count as superior.

Disagree with the Judge or the state but not the law or the Gardai. They get charged with it, and the law itself is reasonably clear. The judge can alleviate the sentence to nothing based on what he believes are acceptable but extenuating circumstances. The state may not prosecute based on the fact that they believe a conviction will not be reached or is not in the best interest of the people. Gardai issue or arrest and charge.

The fact that people get menial or non existent sentences does not absolve them of guilt. You are referring to a Judicial system where some of the clangers that come out of certain Judges mouths can only be considered criminal in and of itself.

Macy0161 · 04-10-2018 12:26pm

Fian wrote: »

Most rural roads are 100km/h not 80km/h.

In fact very little of them are 80km/h in my experience - it is 100 km/h in teh countryside dropping down in towns and villages.

Since 2007, the standard speed limits for roads not National Primary or Secondary (or Motorway) is 80km/hr. Not that you'd know it...

Fian wrote: »

of course limits are not targets and people generally drive at a speed appropriate to the road not 100km/h.

Really not sure if this is sarcasm, trolling or just very naive.

meeeeh · 04-10-2018 12:29pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Disagree with the Judge or the state but not the law or the Gardai. They get charged with it, and the law itself is reasonably clear. The judge can alleviate the sentence to nothing based on what he believes are acceptable but extenuating circumstances. The state may not prosecute based on the fact that they believe a conviction will not be reached or is not in the best interest of the people. Gardai issue or arrest and charge.

The fact that people get menial or non existent sentences does not absolve them of guilt. You are referring to a Judicial system where some of the clangers that come out of certain Judges mouths can only be considered criminal in and of itself.

So only sentences you agree are justified and when there is no prosecution or sentence people are still guilty. I think I get it now.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2018 12:54pm

are you saying we *shouldn't* disagree with sentences that have been handed down? that we're not qualified to disagree?

xckjoo · 04-10-2018 12:54pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

That aimed at me?
As I said, the poster was obviously trying to give an example of a case where you wouldn't see the object until you're upon it. Instead of getting caught up on the semantics of his phrasing it would be a bit more productive to address what he was actually trying to discuss which was if the driver would be held at fault.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2018 1:00pm

xckjoo wrote: »

No because you're supposed to drive with "due care" or whatever the wording is. There's no condition where you would reasonably expect to come across someone lying in the middle of the road in the dark so you wouldn't expect people to drive with that expectation.

just to remind you, i'm also addressing what *you* were saying.

meeeeh · 04-10-2018 1:44pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

are you saying we *shouldn't* disagree with sentences that have been handed down? that we're not qualified to disagree?

You can disagree with anything but it's an opinion and completely irrelevant. As what you are qualified for I have no idea.

CramCycle · 04-10-2018 1:49pm

meeeeh wrote: »

So only sentences you agree are justified and when there is no prosecution or sentence people are still guilty. I think I get it now.

Whether I think a sentence is justified or not is irrelevant, and you are willfully misinterpreting what I am saying.

They are still guilty if the judge finds them guilty, the judge will often suspend a sentence in the scenario I described. So they have been found guilty but in practical day to day terms, nothing else happens to them. I think you are purposefully just misreading what I am saying. Just because someone does not get a sentence, or it is suspended, it does not mean they were not guilty. Judge John Neilan is a good judge to look up, he has actually come out with some brilliantly offensive and illegal ones.

I think the most famous was suggesting it was OK for shopping centres to ban "coloured people" due to an increase in shop lifting in the area.

meeeeh · 04-10-2018 2:36pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Whether I think a sentence is justified or not is irrelevant, and you are willfully misinterpreting what I am saying.

They are still guilty if the judge finds them guilty, the judge will often suspend a sentence in the scenario I described. So they have been found guilty but in practical day to day terms, nothing else happens to them. I think you are purposefully just misreading what I am saying. Just because someone does not get a sentence, or it is suspended, it does not mean they were not guilty. Judge John Neilan is a good judge to look up, he has actually come out with some brilliantly offensive and illegal ones.

I think the most famous was suggesting it was OK for shopping centres to ban "coloured people" due to an increase in shop lifting in the area.

I actually misread your post, I thought that you claimed that even if there is no prosecution or someone is found not guilty that they are still guilty. Sorry about that. My point stands though extreme cases tend not to be even prosecuted. I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road. Two managed to avoid him someone even called Gardai and while they were on the way another unfortunate car killed him. You can't really blame the driver for that. As by the by I don't know how statistically significant it is but there is a tendency in Ireland not to classify suicide as a suicide if there is another option. Car crashing into the wall, someone driving of the pier and similar are often not accidents.

magicbastarder · 04-10-2018 3:58pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road.

it'd be a particularly odious move from the DPP to push ahead with an attempted prosecution here.
a friend of mine was driving a car when he struck and killed a pedestrian, who fell out into the road. the gardai, and the family of the victim, assigned no blame whatsoever.

xckjoo · 04-10-2018 5:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

just to remind you, i'm also addressing what *you* were saying.

Ya I know. I'm just not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding my point or not; that sometimes we can't expect the unexpected. In the situation described by the poster (night, winding road, person lying down), I seriously doubt they'd even be prosecuted.

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be a particularly odious move from the DPP to push ahead with an attempted prosecution here.
a friend of mine was driving a car when he struck and killed a pedestrian, who fell out into the road. the gardai, and the family of the victim, assigned no blame whatsoever.

That's rough. Hope you're friends doing okay. Not sure I'd be able to get drive again after that. You'd be watching everyone near the road on the off chance they end up in front of you.

monument · 04-10-2018 7:10pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

This speed limit sign says "drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions". If they've killed you, they weren't. Simple as...

Actually...

The default rural speed limit needs to come down to 60km/h. Only regional and higher standard local roads should be 80km/h and really segregated cycle paths should be provided at that speed.

AndrewJRenko · 04-10-2018 8:28pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I actually misread your post, I thought that you claimed that even if there is no prosecution or someone is found not guilty that they are still guilty. Sorry about that. My point stands though extreme cases tend not to be even prosecuted. I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road. Two managed to avoid him someone even called Gardai and while they were on the way another unfortunate car killed him. You can't really blame the driver for that. As by the by I don't know how statistically significant it is but there is a tendency in Ireland not to classify suicide as a suicide if there is another option.

Has there been any independent reporting of such suicide attempts by pedestrians? Any coroners reports or similar?

Duckjob · 04-10-2018 8:29pm

monument wrote: »

Actually...

The default rural speed limit needs to come down to 60km/h. Only regional and higher standard local roads should be 80km/h and really segregated cycle paths should be provided at that speed.

Doesn't matter a fiddlers fart what the speed limit when there's no enforcement. People are driving on rural roads like they're in Mad Max.

Agree with you on the segregated cycle paths though. The crazier things get on the roads the more I find I don't mind taking little detours to get away from the loonies for a bit more of my trip. I'd rather arrive 5 minutes later to where I'm going than not arrive at all.

meeeeh · 04-10-2018 9:58pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Has there been any independent reporting of such suicide attempts by pedestrians? Any coroners reports or similar?

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

rubadub · 04-10-2018 9:59pm

Miriam O'C on RTE1 right now making me cringe, asking how long gardai should spend investigating a crime such as robbing a bike. The TD on was going more on about burglary, but it is like she is trying to belitte burglary as a crime not worth investigating that much. Keeps downplaying burglary by bringing up robbed bikes.

Have said several times that gardai appear to treat bicycle theft or any bicycle related crime like it is some "schoolyard crime", and not to be taken seriously -just as she is doing.

listening continually now, she keeps bringing up bikes!! as though she is going to make these "idiots" see the light and go "jaysus miriam, when you put it like that, you made me look an idiot thinking gardai should waste time looking into the theft of a simple auld bike, sure that's to be expected".

AndrewJRenko · 04-10-2018 10:17pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

CramCycle · 04-10-2018 10:56pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

It has happened on the M50, not sure how common it is. There are a few deaths on the M50 that could have been but evidence was not clear cut so I think you won't find too many reports of it. Google it though and there is definitely one.

I came from a part of Ireland where suicide by young men was quite common, to be honest, there hasn't been a question on suicide here that I haven't heard or seen the answer too in my youth. I would be very doubtful that the Gardai or the Coroner ruled suicide, typically death by misadventure if memory serves.

AndrewJRenko · 04-10-2018 11:05pm

CramCycle wrote: »

It has happened on the M50, not sure how common it is. There are a few deaths on the M50 that could have been but evidence was not clear cut so I think you won't find too many reports of it. Google it though and there is definitely one.

I came from a part of Ireland where suicide by young men was quite common, to be honest, there hasn't been a question on suicide here that I haven't heard or seen the answer too in my youth. I would be very doubtful that the Gardai or the Coroner ruled suicide, typically death by misadventure if memory serves.

Just to be absolutely clear - are you saying it has happened by people running out on the M50, or by jumping from bridges?

And if the reports are as vague as you suggest, does it really make any sense for us to be taking this into account in road safety discussions?

CramCycle · 04-10-2018 11:08pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just to be absolutely clear - are you saying it has happened by people running out on the M50, or by jumping from bridges?

And if the reports are as vague as you suggest, does it really make any sense for us to be taking this into account in road safety discussions?

Apologies, report did not say suicide, ran out in front of truck at Junction. Pedestrian on the M50 without car / vehicle. Could be a range of reasons though. Most suicides on the M50 are from bridge jumping AFAIK

http://www.thejournal.ie/long-delays-on-m50-3170474-Jan2017/

Macy0161 · 05-10-2018 9:13am

Walked up to my strength and conditioning class last night. Good job I did have my torch, as despite wearing my ProViz 360, it's feck all use when it's dark and so many are driving around on daylight running lights....

CramCycle · 05-10-2018 9:16am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And if the reports are as vague as you suggest, does it really make any sense for us to be taking this into account in road safety discussions?

I think that is more a case of attitudes towards mental health in Ireland rather than road safety, if someone wants to kill themselves, they will succeed. A judge would have discretion if charges were brought, which would be doubtful as the DPP would simply say no unless there was some doubt.

cjt156 · 05-10-2018 9:38am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

There was a case of a St John of God's patient running in front of a Dublin Bus on the N11 some years back. I know because my sister was on the bus.

Such cases are probably very rare - as with train suicides. But as they are harder to define as suicides they may be regarded as even rarer. The same goes for single vehicle occupant fatalities. In many cases we can never know for sure.

Steoller · 05-10-2018 10:11am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

There was a lad in my younger brother's year in secondary school did it. On the town's (then) new bypass.

Eamonnator · 05-10-2018 10:21am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

In the last 25 years, I am aware of two cases, where young men stepped out in front of lorries, one in Louth, one in Meath.
As far as I remember, neither was recorded as suicide.

Rechuchote · 05-10-2018 10:22am

meeeeh wrote: »

I actually misread your post, I thought that you claimed that even if there is no prosecution or someone is found not guilty that they are still guilty. Sorry about that. My point stands though extreme cases tend not to be even prosecuted. I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road. Two managed to avoid him someone even called Gardai and while they were on the way another unfortunate car killed him. You can't really blame the driver for that. As by the by I don't know how statistically significant it is but there is a tendency in Ireland not to classify suicide as a suicide if there is another option. Car crashing into the wall, someone driving of the pier and similar are often not accidents.

Anyone who has spent time with someone who's having a psychotic breakdown will say "yes, sadly, maybe" to this. Tragic that the Gardaí didn't arrive in time.

Rechuchote · 05-10-2018 10:33am

Gardai urged to investigate road rage incidents against cyclists (they really should be talking to some of the shock jocks too, about whether their incitement is appropriate)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/investigate-road-rage-against-cyclists-garda-urged-tf8p0l9m9

check_six · 05-10-2018 10:45am

Rechuchote wrote: »

Gardai urged to investigate road rage incidents against cyclists (they really should be talking to some of the shock jocks too, about whether their incitement is appropriate)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/investigate-road-rage-against-cyclists-garda-urged-tf8p0l9m9

Heard a bit on the radio on the lunchtime show on newstalk yesterday with a fellow from The Times (Richard Oakley, maybe?). He spoke very well about cycling in the city, cyclists rights, cyclepath laws, and motorists responsibilities. It was unusual as they didn't have some headbanger on roaring about cyclists as faux balance. Inevitably, there were a couple of texts in from oddbods later, but I thought it was a refreshing change from previous newstalk efforts. Who can forget a previous incumbent of the evening drivetime slot constantly harranguing and dehumanising cyclists at every opportunity to a listenership who were mostly behind the wheel as the show was on.

Macy0161 · 05-10-2018 10:59am

Rechuchote wrote: »

(they really should be talking to some of the shock jocks too, about whether their incitement is appropriate)

Again, not cycling, but the way they covered pedestrian road safety on their motoring slot on the Last Word last night was appauling. Not sure who the presenter was (wasn't Cooper), but he was 100% focused on victim blaming, and it was the motoring hack that kept trying to bring it back to car tech and driver behaviour. Seemingly all incidents are "phone zombies" just walking in front of cars*.

*I've had a few near misses with pedestrians on the bike with them wandering onto cycle lanes, stepping off the curb and then looking. I can't remember a single incident in the car though!

schemingbohemia · 05-10-2018 11:06am

There was one case in the recent past where one of the deaths of a person cycling was likely due to suicide but wasn't recorded as such by the coroner. The coroner then tried to push non-helmet use as a cause of death.

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2018 1:08pm

Steoller wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

There was a lad in my younger brother's year in secondary school did it. On the town's (then) new bypass.

Is there any definitive, reputable reports of this case?

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2018 1:12pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.

We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.

Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?

In the last 25 years, I am aware of two cases, where young men stepped out in front of lorries, one in Louth, one in Meath.
As far as I remember, neither was recorded as suicide.

Are there any definitive, reputable reports of these cases?

And if they are as rare as this, do we really need to take them into account in roads policy?

meeeeh · 05-10-2018 1:35pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any definitive, reputable reports of this case?

No they won't be. Mostly is people who know the families or deceased and know what happened. There is a stigma around reporting of the suicide. I'm posting a Sindo article because it short but you can find more reliable sources online about suicide under reporting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/some-coroners-underreport-cases-of-suicide-26838359.html

I'm not saying it will significantly change the traffic statistics but frankly I doubt that many people alone in the car suddenly crash into the wall at high speed by accident.

Hurrache · 05-10-2018 1:48pm

The euphemism is usually 'died tragically' or similar in a lot of reported cases. I have wondered in the past if there's also consideration so as to avoid issues around life assurance.

Eamonnator · 05-10-2018 1:58pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are there any definitive, reputable reports of these cases?

And if they are as rare as this, do we really need to take them into account in roads policy?

In the two cases, that I mentioned, there was an "understanding" between Gardai, Local state solicitor, medical people and coroner. So, no, no reports.

Steoller · 05-10-2018 2:06pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any definitive, reputable reports of this case?

Possibly. You would have to write to the Coroner's court to get the verdict they returned, though, as the verdicts are not publicly available online.

Rechuchote · 05-10-2018 2:16pm

meeeeh wrote: »

frankly I doubt that many people alone in the car suddenly crash into the wall at high speed by accident.

Depends. I've fallen asleep at the wheel in the days when I used to work 12-hour shifts; I've also passed out for a microsecond halfway through a turn a couple of weeks after having a light anaesthetic.

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2018 2:17pm

Steoller wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any definitive, reputable reports of this case?

Possibly. You would have to write to the Coroner's court to get the verdict they returned, though, as the verdicts are not publicly available online.

Would it not have been reported in the press, like most Coroner's verdicts?

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2018 2:24pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are there any definitive, reputable reports of these cases?

And if they are as rare as this, do we really need to take them into account in roads policy?

In the two cases, that I mentioned, there was an "understanding" between Gardai, Local state solicitor, medical people and coroner. So, no, no reports.

Am I naive to think (or to hope) that the days of such 'understandings' have passed? And that the public duty of these officials would take priority over the hush hush scandal games?

Steoller · 05-10-2018 2:29pm

In the case I've told you about, evidently not, or I would have linked it.

As an aside, I don't understand why you're railing against this, like it doesn't happen, or it's a myth because we can't produce the reports for you. Society in this country has a terrible attitude to mental health as a whole and suicide in particular. Is it so hard to believe that reporters, doctors, and Gardai in such a society would omit suicide as a cause of death in these circumstances, to spare a family? That they would find it too ghoulish to record it that way officially unless they had no other choice?

CramCycle · 05-10-2018 2:29pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is there any definitive, reputable reports of this case?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Am I naive to think (or to hope) that the days of such 'understandings' have passed? And that the public duty of these officials would take priority over the hush hush scandal games?

Alas you are Naive. It is not as common as it used to be, or maybe it is, with people accepting it is a thing and there is nothing to be gained by hiding it but it definitely still happens, between people still hiding notes till years later and my local paper still describing such events as "tragic accidents" when it's been made clear friends of the family have reached out and asked for it not to be phrased that way.

meeeeh · 05-10-2018 2:29pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

Depends. I've fallen asleep at the wheel in the days when I used to work 12-hour shifts; I've also passed out for a microsecond halfway through a turn a couple of weeks after having a light anaesthetic.

That can happen, I'm not denying that but you have to be a bit unlucky to do it just when you approaching a wall on deserted country road.

Steoller · 05-10-2018 2:29pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Eamonnator wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are there any definitive, reputable reports of these cases?

And if they are as rare as this, do we really need to take them into account in roads policy?

In the two cases, that I mentioned, there was an "understanding" between Gardai, Local state solicitor, medical people and coroner. So, no, no reports.

Am I naive to think (or to hope) that the days of such 'understandings' have passed? And that the public duty of these officials would take priority over the hush hush scandal games?

Old and bad habits die hard, unfortunately.

Chips Lovell · 05-10-2018 2:31pm

While the press is allowed attend any inquest, it usually only reports on a small number of them.

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2018 2:54pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

While the press is allowed attend any inquest, it usually only reports on a small number of them.

Press can attend ALL Coroner's inquests, surely?

Chips Lovell · 05-10-2018 3:00pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Press can attend ALL Coroner's inquests, surely?

Yes, that's correct.

hans aus dtschl · 05-10-2018 4:16pm

Hurrache wrote: »

The euphemism is usually 'died tragically' or similar in a lot of reported cases. I have wondered in the past if there's also consideration so as to avoid issues around life assurance.

This. Anybody who's ever had an insurance claim will know it can be difficult to get them to pay out.

Journalism and cycling

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