leap card app

bobbyss · 17-09-2020 10:34am #1

Don't know much about technology. Couldn't aee my history on mobile. The leap app it seems is only for top ups. Went to their website. Ive registered etc. Rang leap. They have no app to register etc only go to their website. I asked why no app to check history update prpfile etc. He said there's too much information on it.
So on a mobile for a few weeks there's no history available.
No app available to check your history.
Why in rhe name of God don't they have one?
Seems ludicrous.

Dravokivich · 17-09-2020 10:37am

It's just a website, why do you need an app to function as a html wrapper, when you can just use a web browser?

Mrs OBumble · 17-09-2020 10:44am

They have one. Its called Chrome, and it lets you do a truckload of other things too.

bobbyss · 17-09-2020 7:05pm

Dravokivich wrote:

It's just a website, why do you need an app to function as a html wrapper, when you can just use a web browser?

Html wrapper?
What in the name of God is that?

Why do i need an app? I thought apps were handier to use? I could go on rte website and look for the weather there or i could download a weather app which would be handier to access s5nd give more information. Something along those lines.

bk · 17-09-2020 8:09pm

bobbyss wrote: »

Html wrapper?
What in the name of God is that?

HTML is the main language that websites are written in.

HTML Wrappers are poor apps, which take the website and wrap it as an app, but really they are still just the website and offer nothing more then what the website offers.

Such apps are pointless, it is easier to just go to leap.ie, then install an app like this.

Native apps are only worth it if they can offer some extra functionality over what the website can offer. The Leap topup app is an example of this, as it does something (topup your card) that the website can't do.

There are actually a number of Third Party Leap "HTML wrapper" apps available for iPhones if you want. But note, that means giving your username and password to a third party and giving them access to your travel data. I don't think there are any on Android.

coylemj · 18-09-2020 11:38am

bobbyss wrote: »

So on a mobile for a few weeks there's no history available.
No app available to check your history.
Why in rhe name of God don't they have one?
Seems ludicrous.

Hold your card to the phone and the app will show you your last 5 deductions, including the amount, date and time. If you want more history, visit the website when you're at home.

What's the problem?

bb1234567 · 18-09-2020 11:39am

bk wrote: »

HTML is the main language that websites are written in.

HTML Wrappers are poor apps, which take the website and wrap it as an app, but really they are still just the website and offer nothing more then what the website offers.

Such apps are pointless, it is easier to just go to leap.ie, then install an app like this.

Native apps are only worth it if they can offer some extra functionality over what the website can offer. The Leap topup app is an example of this, as it does something (topup your card) that the website can't do.

There are actually a number of Third Party Leap "HTML wrapper" apps available for iPhones if you want. But note, that means giving your username and password to a third party and giving them access to your travel data. I don't think there are any on Android.

TIL an interesting fact

markpb · 18-09-2020 12:36pm

Why is the OP getting such abuse? The vast majority of apps do nothing that a decent website couldn’t and yet apps are popular with users. For a lot of people, using your phone means using apps.

Maybe it’s because app developers seem to make a better effort at designing apps to look and feel good on a mobile device instead of relying on responsive CSS which does an adequate job but never feels quite right.

The Leapcard website definitely falls into the second category. The pages are long and rambling, the banners take up half the screen, there are two different menus for some reason, the table for displaying card information have been given no thought for mobile devices at all, the table for displaying trip history scrolls off to the right so it’s not responsive at all, the list is endless.

bk · 18-09-2020 1:51pm

Yes, they are currently developing a new app for iPhone to enable topup's from iPhone. Perhaps they could add this functionality to this app then.

However keep in mind, that the data on the website doesn't accurately represent the state and balance currently on the card. It can take up to 48 hours for transactions to appear on the website, so it can be somewhat misleading. The Topup App showing you your cards balance and 5 last transactions is actually far more accurate then the site as it shows the true current state of the card.

So the data on the website is really of very little benefit to most people and probably not worth making a lot of effort integrating it into the app.

Having said that, I do think it is a pity that you can't export the data as a spreadsheet or do other graphs and statistics to show your monthly/yearly spend, etc. Could be helpful to see if worth getting taxsaver cards, etc.

With the project to move to next generation account based ticketing, I do expect they will put a lot more effort into the mobile apps.

In the meantime, an iPhone topup app is the most useful app they can create IMO.

Stephen Strange · 18-09-2020 6:50pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, they are currently developing a new app for iPhone to enable topup's from iPhone. Perhaps they could add this functionality to this app then.

However keep in mind, that the data on the website doesn't accurately represent the state and balance currently on the card. It can take up to 48 hours for transactions to appear on the website, so it can be somewhat misleading. The Topup App showing you your cards balance and 5 last transactions is actually far more accurate then the site as it shows the true current state of the card.

So the data on the website is really of very little benefit to most people and probably not worth making a lot of effort integrating it into the app.

Having said that, I do think it is a pity that you can't export the data as a spreadsheet or do other graphs and statistics to show your monthly/yearly spend, etc. Could be helpful to see if worth getting taxsaver cards, etc.

With the project to move to next generation account based ticketing, I do expect they will put a lot more effort into the mobile apps.

In the meantime, an iPhone topup app is the most useful app they can create IMO.

The website should become more up to date with the introduction of the iPhone app though, shouldn't it? I was under the impression that the iPhone app was to coincide with moving the transactions to account based rather than on the card if that makes sense, I'm not explaining it well.

Dravokivich · 18-09-2020 7:15pm

Account based is a long way off. And its unclear if you think that means web account. Account based means a relationship to an account in the leap back end for the NFC device in use, be it a bank card / phone/ watch or whatever gets implemented as the authenticator.

It has nothing to do with the website or a payment method for the leap card.

Stephen Strange · 18-09-2020 7:27pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Account based is a long way off. And its unclear if you think that means web account. Account based means a relationship to an account in the leap back end for the NFC device in use, be it a bank card / phone/ watch or whatever gets implemented as the authenticator.

It has nothing to do with the website or a payment method for the leap card.

Ah, I thought they were linked given iPhone's locked down NFC

beauf · 18-09-2020 7:43pm

Never liked any part of this system. Haven;t use it in a while. Maybe they've improved it.

I misspelt a username there is no way to fix it.
Decided I'd change my email to a dummy one and just start again.
It doesn't let you reuse an email thats been registered even if no longer in use, with another account.
Makes me wonder about the database design, these might be primary keys.
It might be security but I doubt it as doesn't anticipate typos.

Shows you the zone fare taken, and the amount refunded when you tap off. But not the balance. When its really only the balance that you want to see. The exact amount that the Journey cost you.

The buses aren't live but 24hrs out of date. You have to go to a train or luas stop to get a current update on your card.

Maybe this is me but the annual personalized leap card seems to lose signal (go faulty) far more often than a normal leap card. I had to replace a number of them, but none of non-personalized cards. The process for replacement is cumbersome and takes some time. When it starts to go bad I find it only tags on/off at certain pads and not others. So I have to tap them all till I find one that it works at. Usually the one getting on my train caused the most problems.

Decades ago I used systems in Europe and you tapped at the start of your journey, you could then wander all over the transport system, swap from bus to train and tram, only taping off at the end, and it worked out that multi mode journey. Leap still can't do that.

I'm grateful that its there. But it felt ancient even when new. The whole website/application difference also feels old.
Personally, I'd like to the cards dropped and the ability to do it from your phone or watch, possibly automatically.

Not used it since covid and didn't renew my annual tickets in Dec. I hope I'll be using it less in the future if we get to WFH more.

beauf · 18-09-2020 7:45pm

Also the existing App was very hit and miss with any NFC phone I tried. Often took many attempts to get it read if you have a few cards (family). Seems to struggle to refresh when you presented it with a different card.

bk · 18-09-2020 8:48pm

Stephen Strange wrote: »

The website should become more up to date with the introduction of the iPhone app though, shouldn't it? I was under the impression that the iPhone app was to coincide with moving the transactions to account based rather than on the card if that makes sense, I'm not explaining it well.

Well, first of all, let me point out that I don't work for the NTA or anything like that, my info is based on publicly available info, but might not be 100% correct.

There seems to be 2 or 3 different apps/projects happening at the same time:

1) iPhone Leap "Topup" App

The NTA seem to have already issued or about to issue a contract to a company called Vix Technologies for the development of this app.

This is basically a copy of the existing Android "Topup" App, but for iPhone.

You can hold your existing Leap card to your iPhone and the app allows you to check the balance on the card, view the last 5 transactions, add cash and tickets to the card. Just like the Android app that has been there for the past 4 years.

This isn't part of the next generation ticketing account.

2) Commuter Ticket App

Last year, the NTA contracted with Cubic Systems to develop an app to allow people to buy tickets on their phone and then show them as QR codes on the phone to the driver/ticket checker.

This is aimed at long distance services like Irish Rail and BE. I think this app is already developed and it is currently in beta testing.

3) Next Generation Account Based Ticket

This is a much bigger overall project then the above two, a complete revamping of the whole ticketing system. Moving to account based ticketing, Apple/Google Pay, contactless cards, etc. Suppose to take the next 7 years or so.

I'd assume this will come with new website, apps, etc.

I'd guess some of the two companies and apps above might end up being involved with this too and those apps getting merged in, but just a guess.

p_haugh · 19-09-2020 12:49am

bk wrote: »

2) Commuter Ticket App

Last year, the NTA contracted with Cubic Systems to develop an app to allow people to buy tickets on their phone and then show them as QR codes on the phone to the driver/ticket checker.

This is aimed at long distance services like Irish Rail and BE. I think this app is already developed and it is currently in beta testing.

This app is called TFI Go and is currently being trialled on Bus Eireann Route 133, but you can only buy 10 journey tickets for Adult & student so far. Meant to be rolled out to more routes/operators at some stage down the line.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-go-app/

Peregrine · 21-09-2020 12:37am

bk wrote: »

1) iPhone Leap "Topup" App

The NTA seem to have already issued or about to issue a contract to a company called Vix Technologies for the development of this app.

This is basically a copy of the existing Android "Topup" App, but for iPhone.

You can hold your existing Leap card to your iPhone and the app allows you to check the balance on the card, view the last 5 transactions, add cash and tickets to the card. Just like the Android app that has been there for the past 4 years.

This isn't part of the next generation ticketing account.

Yeah, this was awarded in April so development should be under way. Vix in partnership with Snapper. Same as the Android app.

bk wrote: »

3) Next Generation Account Based Ticket

This is a much bigger overall project then the above two, a complete revamping of the whole ticketing system. Moving to account based ticketing, Apple/Google Pay, contactless cards, etc. Suppose to take the next 7 years or so.

It's a big project, of course, but I think most of the benefits to passengers will be very front-loaded. Contract yet to be awarded but I'd expect contactless, G Pay/Apple Pay and 90 min fare by 2022. They said it'll start in 2021 but the tender was supposed to go out in early 2020 and that only happened two weeks ago.

bobbyss · 21-09-2020 6:20am

markpb wrote:

Why is the OP getting such abuse? The vast majority of apps do nothing that a decent website couldnâ€™t and yet apps are popular with users. For a lot of people, using your phone means using apps.

What's interesting and disappointing is the first poster who replied, a moderator I believe, either didn't read or ignored the first five words of my post.

bk · 21-09-2020 11:12am

Peregrine wrote: »

It's a big project, of course, but I think most of the benefits to passengers will be very front-loaded. Contract yet to be awarded but I'd expect contactless, G Pay/Apple Pay and 90 min fare by 2022. They said it'll start in 2021 but the tender was supposed to go out in early 2020 and that only happened two weeks ago.

Yes, even that will be great, I can't wait for T90 + contactless payment, I think it will make a big difference.

Dravokivich · 21-09-2020 7:23pm

bobbyss wrote: »

What's interesting and disappointing is the first poster who replied, a moderator I believe, either didn't read or ignored the first five words of my post.

I didn't ignore any of your post. What was your problem with my response?

bobbyss · 21-09-2020 10:57pm

Dravokivich wrote:

I didn't ignore any of your post. What was your problem with my response?

What's with all this defensive language: 'What was your problem... .? '

Just read the first post and then read your post.

Dravokivich · 21-09-2020 11:04pm

bobbyss wrote: »

What's with all this defensive language: 'What was your problem... .? '

Just read the first post and then read your post.

You are the one loading my response. All I said was making an app to do what you wanted, would just be recreating a web browser. What's your problem with that?

devnull · 21-09-2020 11:15pm

bobbyss wrote: »

What's interesting and disappointing is the first poster who replied, a moderator I believe, either didn't read or ignored the first five words of my post.

Firstly, the poster you mention is not a moderator of this forum, but another forum on boards, therefore they are treated and should be treated as a regular poster just like you and others contributing to this thread.

Secondly if you have a problem with a post or think it breaks the rules, you should report it to us and we will take a look and whether action needs taking.

Thirdly, lets stick to the topic at hand and not argue backwards and forwards among each other about if someone should have posted something or not.

- Moderator

bobbyss · 22-09-2020 4:21am

devnull wrote:

Secondly if you have a problem with a post or think it breaks the rules, you should report it to us and we will take a look and whether action needs taking.

Thank you.

AndrewJRenko · 24-09-2020 3:54pm

The interface is poor. The 'add credit' option isn't too obvious on the front screen, and then they change terminology with 'top up' on the second screen. The dial to choose the amount is a bit fiddly, especially if you're wearing gloves or have a shaky hand. Buttons would be much better.

Peregrine · 26-12-2020 11:18pm

Peregrine wrote: »

It's a big project, of course, but I think most of the benefits to passengers will be very front-loaded. Contract yet to be awarded but I'd expect contactless, G Pay/Apple Pay and 90 min fare by 2022. They said it'll start in 2021 but the tender was supposed to go out in early 2020 and that only happened two weeks ago.

The contract for account based ticketing won't be awarded until Q3 2022 so it'll be 2023 before we see payments via bank cards, GPay etc.

BusConnects network implementation will start in March 2021 with the H spine and more significant changes are planned for Q3 2021 with the implementation of the C spine. Still quiet on the 90 min fare front. Maybe we'll hear something once the NTA takes control of the farebox. Impossible to do the network changes without it.

legend99 · 29-12-2020 1:20am

I always thought a major aim of a Smart Card for transport was to help speed up the loading of passengers. I find it incredible that Leap has actually slowed it down.

You still have to tell the driver your destination so he knows what fare to charge. She/He then, it appears to me, has to set the machine to charge that much, and the card takes upwards of 5-8 seconds to give it the okay? Is there a lookup back to the actual database or how can it take so long for the card to report its balance? And why do we not just have a system where you deduct your fare while waiting, like for Luas, and then just walk straight onto the bus. The monetary cost of buses wasting so much time loading must be enormous??

AndrewJRenko · 29-12-2020 2:01am

legend99 wrote: »

I always thought a major aim of a Smart Card for transport was to help speed up the loading of passengers. I find it incredible that Leap has actually slowed it down.

You still have to tell the driver your destination so he knows what fare to charge. She/He then, it appears to me, has to set the machine to charge that much, and the card takes upwards of 5-8 seconds to give it the okay? Is there a lookup back to the actual database or how can it take so long for the card to report its balance? And why do we not just have a system where you deduct your fare while waiting, like for Luas, and then just walk straight onto the bus. The monetary cost of buses wasting so much time loading must be enormous??

You need to tag on AND tag off on the Luas.

legend99 · 29-12-2020 10:12am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You need to tag on AND tag off on the Luas.

Yes. But both are done on the street. The Luas is not stopped while you queue to do it. Right now, certainly in Cork, the loading time of buses has not improved at all with Leap. If anything it is worse.

bk · 29-12-2020 12:05pm

Ah you are in Cork. Yes the implementation of Leap in Cork is particularly bad. It is better in Dublin!

In Dublin there is a second leap card validator on the right hand side next to the door. This validator can be used without interacting with the driver and is used by folks with monthly/yearly passes and those paying the full fare or child fares. This is much faster then interacting with the driver and does speed things up greatly.

For those looking to pay shorter fares, they have to interact with the driver, which is slower then the right hand validator, but about the same or slightly faster then cash.

* Cork is particularly mad because there is no right hand validator, despite most routes in Cork being flat fare unlike Dublin! And for some reason interacting with the driver for leap is much slower in Cork then Dublin. It seems to require more button presses by the driver from what I can see. That sounds like a software issue.

There are supposed to be some improvements coming over the next year or so. I believe right hand validators are coming to Cork and in Dublin they should be getting the 90 minute ticket which should mean most people use the right hand validator.

Long term there will be new faster ticket machines and readers and support for contactless debit/credit card and mobile payments (Apple pay, etc.).

* I haven’t been on a bus in Cork in about a year, so some of these may have already been improved on, but this was what it was like up to last year.

Thelonious Monk · 29-12-2020 2:52pm

are there any plans to just scan your phone or bank card like it is in London and everywhere else these days? Leap technology must be 20 years old at this stage.

coylemj · 29-12-2020 5:06pm

legend99 wrote: »

I always thought a major aim of a Smart Card for transport was to help speed up the loading of passengers. I find it incredible that Leap has actually slowed it down.

You still have to tell the driver your destination so he knows what fare to charge. She/He then, it appears to me, has to set the machine to charge that much, and the card takes upwards of 5-8 seconds to give it the okay?

I always declare the fare so the driver doesn't have to work out anything, all he has to do is press the second button to deduct €2.25 which is what I usually pay when I interact with the driver.

The delay you're describing is principally caused by the time it takes the driver's machine to read the card. I have often seen him with his finger over the €2.25 button, waiting for the machine to read my card to verify the balance.

Thelonious Monk · 29-12-2020 5:55pm

Can you not tag on and tag off Dublin buses and it charges you appropriately? Why arent there flat fares like in most places?

p_haugh · 29-12-2020 6:50pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Can you not tag on and tag off Dublin buses and it charges you appropriately? Why arent there flat fares like in most places?

If you go to tag off on Dublin bus it just charges you the full fare. The NTA are working on making it a flat fare for Dublin bus & go ahead within the next year or so hopefully

bk · 29-12-2020 6:54pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

are there any plans to just scan your phone or bank card like it is in London and everywhere else these days? Leap technology must be 20 years old at this stage.

Yes, contactless debit/credit cards + mobile payment (apple pay, etc.) are part of the next generation Leap project. Though it sounds like it is still more then a year away and a few years for full implementation.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Can you not tag on and tag off Dublin buses and it charges you appropriately? Why arent there flat fares like in most places?

No, there is no tag-off on buses in Dublin, tag-off is only on Luas and Rail. Buses is similar to Cork. Either tag-on at the right hand validator and pay the most expensive fare (longest distance) or interact with the driver if going a shorter distance and paying a cheaper fare like €2.25

There is a plan to introduce a sort of flat fare in Dublin. A 90 minute fare that you can use across multiple buses for 90 minutes. That will be the default fare and the one most people will get. Strictly speaking there will be one other fare, for very short distances, you'll need to interact with the driver to get that fare, however the vast majority of people will be covered by the 90 minute one and it should simplify and speed things up.

They have been working towards this for a few years now, they have already turned the child fare basically into a flat fare and hopefully we will have the 90 minute one too soon.

coylemj wrote: »

I always declare the fare so the driver doesn't have to work out anything, all he has to do is press the second button to deduct €2.25 which is what I usually pay when I interact with the driver.

The delay you're describing is principally caused by the time it takes the driver's machine to read the card. I have often seen him with his finger over the €2.25 button, waiting for the machine to read my card to verify the balance.

I do the same in Dublin, just say €2.25. But in Cork it is even slower! You have the same wait for the machine to read the card, but then the driver looks like they have to press 3 buttons or so, even though on most routes in cork it is a flat fare

Vic_08 · 30-12-2020 12:42am

bk wrote: »

I do the same in Dublin, just say €2.25. But in Cork it is even slower! You have the same wait for the machine to read the card, but then the driver looks like they have to press 3 buttons or so, even though on most routes in cork it is a flat fare

This may have changed since I used them, but it sounds like they haven't.

The delay is primarily down to the machines looking for a valid ticket, failing to find one, displaying a message to that effect and then switching to the ticket from e-purse page.

This can be shortcutted by the driver by pressing a button BEFORE the card is presented which immediately presents the fare deduction menu but if that is done and the passenger is just validating a period ticket it won't validate, just wait for the driver to deduct a fare. In that case the card needs to be removed and re-scanned after the machine resets.

Drivers can try to question the passenger before they preesent their Leap card but that takes as long and some passengers assume the driver is being bolshie and take the hump, eventually the drivers just give up and let the rubbish TIMs do their ponderous thing.

It was explained many times to the developers by the drivers who initially trialled the leap implementation that requiring the passenger to state their ticketing requirements before presenting the card was stupid and impractical but of course the highly paid IT graduates knew better.

We had already been through it with the introduction of those crap Wayfarer TGX 150s, the machines were poor and ancient when BE bought them but the implementation was unnecessarily awful to use, if the input of drivers had been sought and taken on board before programming them then they would have been significantly quicker and easier to use.

Even something as ridiculously simple as the machine remaining in the same menu was too much trouble for them to implement, so you had the situation where to issue the same ticket to a long queue of passengers would require multiple button presses to display the correct ticket for each passenger as the machine would automatically revert to the base menu 5 seconds after each issue, if you tried to beat the timer and pressed it as it was reverting it could issue the ticket you wanted or the wrong one so you would have to take the ticket yourself and check it was the correct one.

That is only scratching the surface of how bad those machines are.

legend99 · 30-12-2020 1:44pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

This may have changed since I used them, but it sounds like they haven't.

The delay is primarily down to the machines looking for a valid ticket, failing to find one, displaying a message to that effect and then switching to the ticket from e-purse page.

This can be shortcutted by the driver by pressing a button BEFORE the card is presented which immediately presents the fare deduction menu but if that is done and the passenger is just validating a period ticket it won't validate, just wait for the driver to deduct a fare. In that case the card needs to be removed and re-scanned after the machine resets.

Drivers can try to question the passenger before they preesent their Leap card but that takes as long and some passengers assume the driver is being bolshie and take the hump, eventually the drivers just give up and let the rubbish TIMs do their ponderous thing.

It was explained many times to the developers by the drivers who initially trialled the leap implementation that requiring the passenger to state their ticketing requirements before presenting the card was stupid and impractical but of course the highly paid IT graduates knew better.

We had already been through it with the introduction of those crap Wayfarer TGX 150s, the machines were poor and ancient when BE bought them but the implementation was unnecessarily awful to use, if the input of drivers had been sought and taken on board before programming them then they would have been significantly quicker and easier to use.

Even something as ridiculously simple as the machine remaining in the same menu was too much trouble for them to implement, so you had the situation where to issue the same ticket to a long queue of passengers would require multiple button presses to display the correct ticket for each passenger as the machine would automatically revert to the base menu 5 seconds after each issue, if you tried to beat the timer and pressed it as it was reverting it could issue the ticket you wanted or the wrong one so you would have to take the ticket yourself and check it was the correct one.

That is only scratching the surface of how bad those machines are.

I don't envy any driver dealing with that. In Cork the load time of buses is crazy. It is beyond inefficient. I really don't understand why someone can't just analyse say ten cities and take the best of each and build that here.

bk · 30-12-2020 3:58pm

Vic_08, that sounds like an absolutely dreadful design and user interface! And it confirms much of what I could guess from the customer side.

However I might slightly defend the overpaid IT graduates. I don't have any inside knowledge, but I'd seriously doubt they designed it in this way on purpose.

I suspect there are severe limitations on what they can do based on how poor and underpowered the Wayfarer machines are. I suspect the machines have such limited memory and processing power that they can only be in one mode at a time and thus the crazy switching between modes.

I suspect the requirements for Leap are far beyond what the ancient Wayfarer is really capable of. It looks like it was a machine really only designed to handle basic cash fares that is now being asked to do too much!

I could be wrong, if they didn't design it like this, without a good technical reason for it, then yes, they should be shot out of a canon!

legend99 wrote: »

I don't envy any driver dealing with that. In Cork the load time of buses is crazy. It is beyond inefficient. I really don't understand why someone can't just analyse say ten cities and take the best of each and build that here.

It is an age old story with public sector "technology" projects (happens in private sector too, but less often IME). Take a broken manual process and try and fix it by simply layering expensive technology on top of it, without actually allowing the broken manual process to first or also be fixed. Of course it always ends up the same, a process that is still broken and inefficient, but now with expensive technology on top that doesn't really help and can even make it worse!

The expensive IT consultants usually know this, and will tell the civil servants, but often it gets ignored, usually the civil servants are afraid of making major process changes. In the end the IT consultants can only bid on the contract offered and have to deliver it to the spec specified in the contract which would normally not all for such change (at least in the past).

Most of the Dublin Bus ticketing issues stem from very poor decisions made when they decided to get rid of ticket checkers. Back then you had an almost European style system, two door buses, you don't interact with the driver, just get on and sit and buy the ticket from the ticket checker. Nice and fast.

But when they (understandably) got rid of the ticket checkers, they replaced them with the worst process possible. They got rid of the second door and made you buy the ticket from the driver, with a complicated fare stage system. It was a complete disaster!

When Leap came along, they just layered the Leap card ontop of this already broken system and on top of that they used the ancient and insufficient ticket machines. Of course it didn't fix anything!

What's worse about this, is that even back in the 80's a better system existed all over mainland Europe and even without any fancy tickets.

You bought a book of tickets in a shop, buses have 3/4 doors, enter/exit through any door, validate ticket on the bus by having the date/time printed on a paper ticket + inspectors. Sort of similar to how the Luas works.

A system that has existed since before the 1950's all over Europe! Very fast and efficient and didn't need any fancy tech. Now a lot of those systems have replaced the paper ticket with a smart card/app, but the overall system is the same and as efficient as ever.

Instead in the 80's someone made the poor decision to force everyone through one door and to interact with the driver, it is the worst system possible and we still continue to suffer from this mistake.

Fortunately it looks like these mistakes were recognised and they are VERY slowly being corrected. Obviously Luas went with the correct approach from the start. Single door buses are being replaced by dual door buses and they are slowly moving towards a flat fare and less driver interaction. Plus eventually new ticket machines and mobile payments, etc.

It isn't the perfect system IMO, but it should be a lot better then what we currently have.

It is all pretty much a text book example of not how to do major technology projects and process change.

GT89 · 30-12-2020 6:59pm

When were the TGX150s first bought for DB and BE. I've heard they date back to the 90s but they introduced on DB and BE sometime in the mid noughties iirc. So I'm guessing they were outdated when they were bought.

GT89 · 30-12-2020 7:06pm

I think the one positive to come from CV19 has been the use of both doors by all drivers and passengers lets hope it remains that way for good now.

Peregrine · 23-02-2021 4:05am

A new ticketing platform for Expressway including contactless, Google Pay and Apple Pay launched today. The contract was awarded to Turnit mid last year. The NTA are still 18 months away from awarding their contract.

https://twitter.com/ExpresswayIRE/status/1363926533421760512?s=20

bk · 23-02-2021 11:26am

Peregrine wrote: »

A new ticketing platform for Expressway including contactless, Google Pay and Apple Pay launched today. The contract was awarded to Turnit mid last year. The NTA are still 18 months away from awarding their contract.

Great that Expressway is now offering this.

But Aircoach has been offering the same ticketing options for more then a year and a half now, what took BE so long?!

Also NTA actually awarded a contract to Cubic Systems back in 2019 for a similar mobile ticketing system for commuter PSO routes and actually started trialling it on the 133 mid last year:

https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/

However I suspect it's rollout has been delayed due to Payzone suing the NTA in the high court over the contract:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-31008177.html

I wonder does anyone know how that court case is going?

If you mean the next generation leap card, well that is something very different to the above and vastly more complicated.

All of the above are pretty simple evolutions on the existing ticketing systems. They still require driver interaction, either asking the driver to buy a ticket and then offering your contactless card to pay for it rather then cash or buying a ticket on your phone first and showing the driver your ticket on the phone as you board. All not that different from the past, just a contactless or mobile, rather then cash or a printed ticket/email.

This is good that these are happening, these are suitable technologies for long range intercity and commuter type services.

However the next gen leap project is a whole different kettle of fish. It is aimed at short distance mass transit services. It needs to be rolled out across Dublin Bus, GAI, Luas, DART, BE city services, etc.

Unlike the above options, the goal would be to eliminate driver interaction. It needs to correctly handle capping, transfers, etc.

Technically speaking, it is a vastly more complicated project. I too am annoyed at how long it is taking, but it isn't at all comparable to the above MyExpress ticketing system.

Xterminator · 23-02-2021 1:04pm

yep, with the bus connects strategy, a lot of people will be changing more often, and less people will be going direct to their destination. this is a change people will have to get used to.

It also means the ticketing system needs to be able to handle the complexities of someone using the bus to say a luas stop, then jumping on a dart from the luas, and possible using a bus to complete the journey, and for the ticket to treat this as one journey.

Mrs OBumble · 23-02-2021 6:49pm

bk wrote: »

Great that Expressway is now offering this.

.

However introducing it at the same time as removing through ticketing from non-expressway services could have some interesting consequences.

It's now impossible to buy a Bus Eireann ticket that involves any change of bus on their website. Even if both buses are PSO.

bk · 23-02-2021 7:13pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

However introducing it at the same time as removing through ticketing from non-expressway services could have some interesting consequences.

It's now impossible to buy a Bus Eireann ticket that involves any change of bus on their website. Even if both buses are PSO.

Yes, that sounds like a major downgrade!!

Xterminator · 25-02-2021 11:33am

you cannot buy a ticket on swords express or matthews coaches that allows you to use the luas etc.
Who would you expect BE to operate differently?

markpb · 25-02-2021 11:45am

Xterminator wrote: »

you cannot buy a ticket on swords express or matthews coaches that allows you to use the luas etc.
Who would you expect BE to operate differently?

Because you could for at very long time?

Greenlights16 · 23-03-2021 10:35pm

Disappointing but not surprising in 2021 ireland that the two leap card apps on the App Store for iPhone are a complete shambles. Wont even let you log in or else crashes despite re downloading and deleting multiple times.

Can you top it up online? Or do you literally have to go to a machine or something?

“ Apple has protected the use of its NFC chip and has prevented its use by third parties.” some cop out

bk · 24-03-2021 12:01am

Greenlights16 wrote: »

Disappointing but not surprising in 2021 ireland that the two leap card apps on the App Store for iPhone are a complete shambles. Wont even let you log in or else crashes despite re downloading and deleting multiple times.

Can you top it up online? Or do you literally have to go to a machine or something?

“ Apple has protected the use of its NFC chip and has prevented its use by third parties.” some cop out

Both of those apps on the Apple App store are third party apps and have no relationship with the NTA/Leap.

When you give these apps your password, they are behind the scenes using your password to log into the Leap card website and basically screen scrapping out the data.

You are basically trusting your password, data and privacy to a third party and you have no guarantee that it will continue to work. If it breaks, it isn't Leap/NTA's fault.

There is an official app on Android that can actually read the card and top it up directly using NFC on phones that have NFC.

Until recently this wasn't possible on iPhones as Apple stopped apps from using the NFC on the iPhone. They recently removed this restriction and supposedly the NTA are supposed to be working on a similar app for the iPhone, though it hasn't launched yet.

antimatterx · 28-03-2021 10:48am

bk wrote: »

Both of those apps on the Apple App store are third party apps and have no relationship with the NTA/Leap.

When you give these apps your password, they are behind the scenes using your password to log into the Leap card website and basically screen scrapping out the data.

You are basically trusting your password, data and privacy to a third party and you have no guarantee that it will continue to work. If it breaks, it isn't Leap/NTA's fault.

There is an official app on Android that can actually read the card and top it up directly using NFC on phones that have NFC.

Until recently this wasn't possible on iPhones as Apple stopped apps from using the NFC on the iPhone. They recently removed this restriction and supposedly the NTA are supposed to be working on a similar app for the iPhone, though it hasn't launched yet.

The IOS app hasn't officially been released. Some people got notifications through the TFI app offering them beta access. A friend of mine has it, and it works seamlessly.

dublinman1990 · 22-05-2021 12:17am

bk wrote: »

Great that Expressway is now offering this.

But Aircoach has been offering the same ticketing options for more then a year and a half now, what took BE so long?!

Also NTA actually awarded a contract to Cubic Systems back in 2019 for a similar mobile ticketing system for commuter PSO routes and actually started trialling it on the 133 mid last year:

https://www.thejournal.ie/nta-mobile-ticketing-app-5169192-Aug2020/

However I suspect it's rollout has been delayed due to Payzone suing the NTA in the high court over the contract:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-31008177.html

I wonder does anyone know how that court case is going?

If you mean the next generation leap card, well that is something very different to the above and vastly more complicated.

All of the above are pretty simple evolutions on the existing ticketing systems. They still require driver interaction, either asking the driver to buy a ticket and then offering your contactless card to pay for it rather then cash or buying a ticket on your phone first and showing the driver your ticket on the phone as you board. All not that different from the past, just a contactless or mobile, rather then cash or a printed ticket/email.

This is good that these are happening, these are suitable technologies for long range intercity and commuter type services.

However the next gen leap project is a whole different kettle of fish. It is aimed at short distance mass transit services. It needs to be rolled out across Dublin Bus, GAI, Luas, DART, BE city services, etc.

Unlike the above options, the goal would be to eliminate driver interaction. It needs to correctly handle capping, transfers, etc.

Technically speaking, it is a vastly more complicated project. I too am annoyed at how long it is taking, but it isn't at all comparable to the above MyExpress ticketing system.

That mobile ticketing app is now called TFIGo. It's on iOS and Android now.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-go-app/

leap card app

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