Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

AnRothar · 16-10-2020 4:45pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's with the requirements to narrow the runways?

Seems counterintuitive to remove landing area?

A bit more info.
Runways are designed with the typically expected aircraft types who will use it in mind.

Most historic runways were designed when the DC8/B707 were still common.
These 4 engine types then drove the runway design.
Specifically the 2 outer engines.
They were closer to the ground than the newer 4 engine designs (B747/A340) hence the need for "wide" runways.
Some older runways had an additional "shoulder" facilitate this.

Bar the legacy 4 engine types all new build large passenger aircraft are twin engines.

EASA recognised this and it was part of the recommendations in its recent document on runway design.
Why build extra unnecessary pavement.

Kevski · 16-10-2020 5:05pm

theguzman wrote: »

Has anyone flown into Dublin airport domestically from either Kerry or Donegal this year in Covid times or else in recent years. I myself last flew Kerry to Dublin in 2010 with Ryanair and I really can't remember at the time but I think there was no checkpoint.

I think it is truly horrendous that you have to clear immigration and get your passport scanned to fly domestically despite it being an internal flight domestically within the Republic of Ireland, it has a real big brother feel to it. Is this domestic immigration checkpoint something new resulting from Covid or what? E.g. we can fly to the UK and waltz through with no checks but fly to Dublin (same country) and you get checked and interrogated.

There’s no segregation between passengers coming from domestic and non-domestic flights on landing so all have to pass through immigration.

Locker10a · 16-10-2020 5:53pm

Kevski wrote: »

There’s no segregation between passengers coming from domestic and non-domestic flights on landing so all have to pass through immigration.

You can flash your boarding pass to avoid digging out ID

LXFlyer · 16-10-2020 6:30pm

theguzman wrote: »

Has anyone flown into Dublin airport domestically from either Kerry or Donegal this year in Covid times or else in recent years. I myself last flew Kerry to Dublin in 2010 with Ryanair and I really can't remember at the time but I think there was no checkpoint.

I think it is truly horrendous that you have to clear immigration and get your passport scanned to fly domestically despite it being an internal flight domestically within the Republic of Ireland, it has a real big brother feel to it. Is this domestic immigration checkpoint something new resulting from Covid or what? E.g. we can fly to the UK and waltz through with no checks but fly to Dublin (same country) and you get checked and interrogated.

It is not a new thing. It was exactly the same back in 2010 and prior years.

There has not been a segregated domestic arrivals corridor.

Idbatterim · 22-10-2020 7:45pm

if this has already been discussed elsewhere, I apologise. What do you lads think the future outlook is for airport?s Will the larger ones like dublin etc with a critical mass, will bounce back quite a bit, if as I expect, ryanair etc, will cull large amount of routes from cork, shannon , belfast etc, when we come out of this **** show, as demand will take a long time to return?

cork should have flights to our own dublin hub here, its ridiculous that passengers route via london etc, when dublin has a colossal amount of the popular routes.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 10:50am

Been done to death. Cork-Dublin motorway has killed off any prospect of that route returning.
Once the Cork-Limerick motorway is built, ORK should close really :eek:

The idea that this island could sustain six or seven international airports was ridiculous before the crisis never mind after.

MJohnston · 23-10-2020 11:57am

How much control do we have over security theatre on internal flights?

If you could minimise that for those flights, reduce the preflight process so that you’d only have to arrive a few minutes before, as you do for the train, and make it quicker to exit afterwards. If you could do all that, internal flights might have a chance of flourishing again.

Of course, even post-Covid the airline industry is going to have to reckon with decarbonisation very soon

Stephen Strange · 23-10-2020 12:31pm

MJohnston wrote: »

How much control do we have over security theatre on internal flights?

If you could minimise that for those flights, reduce the preflight process so that you’d only have to arrive a few minutes before, as you do for the train, and make it quicker to exit afterwards. If you could do all that, internal flights might have a chance of flourishing again.

Of course, even post-Covid the airline industry is going to have to reckon with decarbonisation very soon

Given that pax would mix with international passengers, absolutely no control at all.

Chris_5339762 · 23-10-2020 1:00pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Been done to death. Cork-Dublin motorway has killed off any prospect of that route returning.
Once the Cork-Limerick motorway is built, ORK should close really :eek:

The idea that this island could sustain six or seven international airports was ridiculous before the crisis never mind after.

They were actually considering reinstating it before COVID.

MJohnston · 23-10-2020 1:08pm

Stephen Strange wrote: »

Given that pax would mix with international passengers, absolutely no control at all.

But say there was separation, hypothetically — I presume there are bare minimum rules set by the EU, even on internal flights?

VG31 · 23-10-2020 1:42pm

MJohnston wrote: »

But say there was separation, hypothetically — I presume there are bare minimum rules set by the EU, even on internal flights?

I might be mistaken but I think some of the Scottish island flights have no security.

cgcsb · 23-10-2020 1:51pm

A new high speed rail study will look at providing Cork and Belfast with high speed links to Dublin City and Airport. If such a link is built then certainly one of Belfast's airports would close, likely Aldergrove. Cork and Belfast City airports would still have an important regional function. Internal flights Dub to Cork cannot compete with existing rail journey times or ticket prices so in a future with high speed rail there's no chance of this, the Dub to Kerry flight will likely be gone too in the future leaving Dub to Donegal the last internal flight.

Decarbonisation policy will eventually target air travel and the first tool in that struggle is to replace it with rail where possible, not just here but across Europe. In Spain their newly built high speed rail network was struggling to attract pax, a 2 birds with one stone solution is banning most internal flights with exceptions for the islands.

As an island we depend on air travel a lot and that's unlikely to change but new internal flights is a counter productive idea

LXFlyer · 23-10-2020 3:17pm

VG31 wrote: »

I might be mistaken but I think some of the Scottish island flights have no security.

Correct - the PSO flights from Kirkwall to the strips on the Orkney islands don't go through security.

LXFlyer · 23-10-2020 3:19pm

MJohnston wrote: »

But say there was separation, hypothetically — I presume there are bare minimum rules set by the EU, even on internal flights?

I cannot imagine that any flight from an international airport, even with fully segregated passageways would not involve a full security check.

The risk of someone getting onto the ramp alone would be too great.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 3:25pm

The naivete that an internal flight could not be targeted by terrorists is somewhat disturbing.

and having two airports in the Belfast region is crazy, it ensures neither can develop.

MJohnston · 23-10-2020 3:33pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The naivete that an internal flight could not be targeted by terrorists is somewhat disturbing.

Meh, it's not disturbing at all nor is it naïveté, I just think 90% of airport security is pure theatre, largely foisted upon us by America, and nothing more.

Shedite27 · 23-10-2020 3:47pm

What's the Aran Islands - Galway flight like?

Idbatterim · 23-10-2020 4:27pm

high speed rail FFS! Its comedy! cant even build a few km metro in dublin, where the population will probably grow by as much as cork city in the next decade...

Where is the sustainability, in having a cork to dublin route for high speed rail , I really dont get this nonsense of huge commutes, when you actually just provide a proper transport system in dublin and cork , DU and MN primarily and have people walking, cycling, working from home etc or travelling 2km, not 200 :rolleyes:

bk · 23-10-2020 5:39pm

Yes, the idea of Cork to Belfast true high speed rail * simply isn't going to happen in the next 40 to 50 years. Far too expensive (12 billion+), with far too little demand and far more important projects to work on in the meantime.

It is a nice dream, but we simply don't have big enough cities to justify the high cost of high speed rail and our cities are relatively too close for it and as Idbatterim says above, the really useful projects that need building are the likes of DU, Metros, etc.

If a route between two cities doesn't even have enough demand for an air route, it certainly doesn't have enough demand for much more expensive HSR.

* Note I'm talking about true HSR here, which requires an entirely new routing/track. Of course we should be making sensible upgrades to the existing tracks and services to get better and faster journey times out of the existing infrastructure and trains.

Metrolink will be much more useful to Dublin Airport then a HSR.

Idbatterim · 23-10-2020 6:08pm

dublins transport network is so appalling, why cant they have a large park and ride around m50 etc, that you could park your car for very little or nothing, and then take a bus down to cork etc... getting into heuston station on the transport here is a joke, simply takes too long.

because at the moment, people just wont or cant travel to there etc say red cow area park and ride, in dublin with the appalling transport network, with any reasonable journey time... You would wonder, with battery technology, would they start running electric buses down motorway at even 130/140kmph?

as an extra incentive to get people out of cars or even reduce car speed limit, probably way off topic..

L1011 · 23-10-2020 10:08pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

What's the Aran Islands - Galway flight like?

You're weighed holding your carry-on baggage... as far as I remember that's it. You watch a safety video in the terminal. Left the job that had me going over there a few times a year in 2013 so it could very easily have changed.

Ben D Bus · 24-10-2020 7:03pm

So does RWY 28L/10R now have big L/R painted on either end of the runway?

conor_mc · 24-10-2020 7:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Decarbonisation policy will eventually target air travel and the first tool in that struggle is to replace it with rail where possible, not just here but across Europe. In Spain their newly built high speed rail network was struggling to attract pax, a 2 birds with one stone solution is banning most internal flights with exceptions for the islands.

As an island we depend on air travel a lot and that's unlikely to change but new internal flights is a counter productive idea

I think the prospect of decarbonisation in aviation over the coming 10-20 years is actually a huge opportunity to revive internal flights. We’ve seen just this past month tests of hydrogen-powered 6/8-seater size aircraft over at Cranfield. Size that tech up to ATR size aircraft, and obviously hope to reduce the cost of hydrogen electrolysis via renewables, and you could see it as a viable alternative to 2-3 hours on the motorway followed by parking/check-in/security hassle at DUB.

Hydrogen-powered flight from Irish and UK regions to DUB is a huge opportunity, because it has the potential to be cleaner/cheaper than 737/A320’s on the same routes, never mind the infrastructure for high speed rail.

The problem though is that DUB needs to have a product that can support smaller, higher-frequency flights. Bigger runways/terminals might be a little counter-productive in that case as it increases the costs for all operators. It’s a difficult balance to get right for any major airport admittedly.

sparrowcar · 24-10-2020 7:26pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

So does RWY 28L/10R now have big L/R painted on either end of the runway?

Depends on what you consider big....

24-10-2020 9:10pm

Ben D Bus wrote: »

So does RWY 28L/10R now have big L/R painted on either end of the runway?

Yes it does, in accordance with international standards

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Runway_Designators

If you have three parallel runways, the middle one has a “C” for Centre. Four and five parallel runways is even more interesting. The numerical designators - based on the compass heading of the runways, are changed to prevent confusion. Atlanta is a good example.

https://uk.flightaware.com/resources/airport/ATL/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf

yannakis · 24-10-2020 9:20pm

This one is even more recent
https://wego.here.com/?map=53.42987,-6.25286,15,satellite

Beechwoodspark · 24-10-2020 9:23pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It is not a new thing. It was exactly the same back in 2010 and prior years.

There has not been a segregated domestic arrivals corridor.

Just reading some of the posts from last week

It’s simply extremely poor from Dublin Airport authority they don’t facilitate domestic flights exit straight into the arrivals hall. These are Domestic flights. We should not be asked “to produce your papers” in this case. Crazy

HTCOne · 24-10-2020 10:14pm

yannakis wrote: »

This one is even more recent
https://wego.here.com/?map=53.42987,-6.25286,15,satellite

Plenty if room to lengthen 28L/10R there, shame the DAA will be too broke to do it for the foreseeable! What could have been if it hadn't been shortened at planning stage due the lobbying in the South West of the country!

Irish Steve · 24-10-2020 11:32pm

HTCOne wrote: »

Plenty if room to lengthen 28L/10R there, shame the DAA will be too broke to do it for the foreseeable! What could have been if it hadn't been shortened at planning stage due the lobbying in the South West of the country!

Not quite that simple. one of the roads that cross the centre line would have to be moved or lowered in order to move the approach lights, the cheapest one would be the St Margaret's end, in a tunnel, as that's a lower volume of traffic than the other end.

And yes, it would have been a lot better if the Shannon lobby had been stuffed down their hole when they raised all manner of absurd objections to the originally planned length. Parish pump politics have damned way too many infrastructure projects for way too long.

HTCOne · 24-10-2020 11:40pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

Not quite that simple. one of the roads that cross the centre line would have to be moved or lowered in order to move the approach lights, the cheapest one would be the St Margaret's end, in a tunnel, as that's a lower volume of traffic than the other end.

And yes, it would have been a lot better if the Shannon lobby had been stuffed down their hole when they raised all manner of absurd objections to the originally planned length. Parish pump politics have damned way too many infrastructure projects for way too long.

Instrumentation would indeed need to be moved, but that first bit of tarmac you see crossing the centerline at the 10R end is within the airport perimeter, its a road for aiport ops vehicles. If you compare the distance of the 10L threshold to a public road vs the distance of 10R (public road illustrated in yellow on that image), you could easily add a couple of hundred M to the runway without needing to alter the public road in any way.

Not that there’ll be much demand for it with the new runway available. Unlikely DUB will be seeing anything larger than the A350 or 77W for the foreseeable. The A359 can actually get off 10R/28L as is at MTOW, even when wet, something the A330s can’t even do I believe.

Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

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