Waterford Airport.

Bhoy1967 · 14-11-2020 12:32am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...and its this type if thinking fcuks the whole thing up, relying on market forces, me arse, having a functioning transport system is critical to such developments, if such an expansion is gonna happen, this will be a critical component, waiting for the passengers to show up, is too late.

I don't disagree with you - I was talking about the airport public transport - I believe the proposed NQ will fuel demand for the airport and in turn the public transport for the airport - and yes there should be an element of forward thinking and planning! Waterford will be a different place in 5 years time

Harry Palmr · 14-11-2020 7:30pm

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/mccarthy-clinches-contract-for-aer-lingus-regional-39745380.html

Dublin Aerospace founder Conor McCarthy is understood to have clinched the contract to operate the Aer Lingus Regional service from 2023.

Conor McCarthy is one the group that has committed to investment for the airport, I'm not drawing any conclusions.

Dum_Dum · 17-11-2020 11:23pm

Some dross from Cork based Ralph Riegel of the Independent:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/delay-over-12m-waterford-airport-runway-extension-plan-39756143.html

Know your place little Waterford:

"In its final year of commercial flight operations, Waterford handled 13,511 passengers.... This was around 7,000 less than the total number of passengers handled by Connemara Airport"

Anyway, any updates as to why the decision was put back 4 months?

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 1:51am

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Some dross from Cork based Ralph Riegel of the Independent:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/delay-over-12m-waterford-airport-runway-extension-plan-39756143.html

Know your place little Waterford:

"In its final year of commercial flight operations, Waterford handled 13,511 passengers.... This was around 7,000 less than the total number of passengers handled by Connemara Airport"

Anyway, any updates as to why the decision was put back 4 months?

Before Covid they were struggling with the level of demand, less than half of cases would be decided within the 18 week statutory time frames.

With Covid they accumulated a backlog and pressure to prioritise housing applications.

In many ways it's a blessing that this project hasn't commenced yet, as the industry experts fear that it'll take years for the sector to recover.

Wanderer78 · 18-11-2020 6:39am

hardybuck wrote:

In many ways it's a blessing that this project hasn't commenced yet, as the industry experts fear that it'll take years for the sector to recover.

This is very unfortunate, as I think over the coming years, with the increase in city activities from the developments, this could be viable once again, I guess we 'll just have to wait and see.

Dum_Dum · 18-11-2020 11:09am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

This is very unfortunate, as I think over the coming years, with the increase in city activities from the developments, this could be viable once again, I guess we 'll just have to wait and see.

Who cares about viability? None of the other regional airports are viable. Free handouts to everyone except us.

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 11:16am

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Who cares about viability? None of the other regional airports are viable. Free handouts to everyone except us.

Imagine for a moment that Waterford got the money a couple of years ago, and opened up just before Covid, or even if it got the money a year ago and couldn't open because nobody is flying anywhere. That would probably be the final nail in the coffin.

They've been fortunate in many ways because they've not missed out on anything while they've been in planning, because the sector is effectively frozen.

Industry commentators seem to think it'll be at least end 2023 before the industry starts to recover, with many expecting it to take far longer than that. Timing might be kind to Waterford once more as they might be in a position to open as the sector is picking back up again.

Dum_Dum · 18-11-2020 11:18am

hardybuck wrote: »

Before Covid they were struggling with the level of demand, less than half of cases would be decided within the 18 week statutory time frames.

With Covid they accumulated a backlog and pressure to prioritise housing applications.

In many ways it's a blessing that this project hasn't commenced yet, as the industry experts fear that it'll take years for the sector to recover.

In Kerry their Councillors get on the backs of An Bord Pleanala on any delays:
https://www.radiokerry.ie/cllr-asks-bord-pleanala-delay-south-kerry-greenway-delay/

One month later - permission granted:
https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1112/1177676-kerry-greenway/

As for hanging around waiting for the industry picks up - don't be ridiculous. Cork Airport just got 5 million to resurface their runway because with low traffic volumes it's 'a good time to do it'.

Harry Palmr · 18-11-2020 11:26am

I'd view Waterford Airport as a strategic asset, actually thinking about we're about to see a wave of capital spending in the city which in theory could head for a 800m euro (NQ, SQ, Micheal St, Kilbarry) and yet we're getting held up by another delay in the PP (for reasons we don't know) and the fear that the state won't actually pony up about 5m. Just seems odd, if I were the Falcon boys I'd be looking at the airport as part of the mix.

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 11:28am

Dum_Dum wrote: »

In Kerry their Councillors get on the backs of An Bord Pleanala on any delays:
https://www.radiokerry.ie/cllr-asks-bord-pleanala-delay-south-kerry-greenway-delay/

One month later - permission granted:
https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1112/1177676-kerry-greenway/

As for hanging around waiting for the industry picks up - don't be ridiculous. Cork Airport just got 5 million to resurface their runway because with low traffic volumes it's 'a good time to do it'.

Well resurfacing existing infrastructure is definitely a good idea when it's quiet and it's not going to cause as much disruption.

Regarding Kerry, that's really amusing to think that a councillor asking for an update got the decision over the line. You didn't mention that they were waiting over a year after the oral consultation to hear anything.

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 11:36am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I'd view Waterford Airport as a strategic asset, actually thinking about we're about to see a wave of capital spending in the city which in theory could head for a 800m euro (NQ, SQ, Micheal St, Kilbarry) and yet we're getting held up by another delay in the PP (for reasons we don't know) and the fear that the state won't actually pony up about 5m. Just seems odd, if I were the Falcon boys I'd be looking at the airport as part of the mix.

The State can't give the money to a company before they get planning - imagine the egg on their face if planning wasn't approved.

What you've described about NQs etc. is all true - and again the timing of these project is all coming together perfectly as they won't be getting anything started on that until the middle of 2021.

I think that there's a few lads here who're struggling to switch off the negatively setting and are nearly looking for the next thing to crib about since the huge tranche of funding for the quays was approved.

BBM77 · 18-11-2020 11:41am

hardybuck wrote: »

Before Covid they were struggling with the level of demand, less than half of cases would be decided within the 18 week statutory time frames.

With Covid they accumulated a backlog and pressure to prioritise housing applications.

In many ways it's a blessing that this project hasn't commenced yet, as the industry experts fear that it'll take years for the sector to recover.

Silly thing to write. So working on the project now so the infrastructure is in place for when things are back to normal would be a bad thing!

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 11:55am

BBM77 wrote: »

Silly thing to write. So working on the project now so the infrastructure is in place for when things are back to normal would be a bad thing!

Come on, if you want to call me silly, a kid doing Junior Cert Business will grasp the basics of this.

The sector is in really dire straights. Airlines are barely hanging in there, airports are like ghost towns.

It'll be a number of years before demand for flights from you and me (consumers) returns to the levels they were at and it'll be a number of years before the companies who offer flights, lease aircrafts, make aircrafts, can get back to where they were.

So yes I think the company will do really well to avoid all of that, as I think they'd find it very difficult to reopen and try to add extra supply into a very depressed market. Basic supply and demand stuff.

Dum_Dum · 18-11-2020 12:32pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Come on, if you want to call me silly, a kid doing Junior Cert Business will grasp the basics of this.

The sector is in really dire straights. Airlines are barely hanging in there, airports are like ghost towns.

It'll be a number of years before demand for flights from you and me (consumers) returns to the levels they were at and it'll be a number of years before the companies who offer flights, lease aircrafts, make aircrafts, can get back to where they were.

So yes I think the company will do really well to avoid all of that, as I think they'd find it very difficult to reopen and try to add extra supply into a very depressed market. Basic supply and demand stuff.

Waterford must be subjected to the hard laws of economics while the rest of the country gets free money. Basic supply and demand stuff.

We'll sit tight while the bailouts rain down elsewhere. Get the auld wans to say a few Hail Mary's in the Friary and we might get a runway.

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 12:43pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Waterford must be subjected to the hard laws of economics while the rest of the country gets free money. Basic supply and demand stuff.

We'll sit tight while the bailouts rain down elsewhere. Get the auld wans to say a few Hail Mary's in the Friary and we might get a runway.

The credibility of your point starts to erode when you point the finger in other directions.

However the likes of Cork are they're definitely very fortunate to be run by the Dublin Airport Authority, which was very profitable in recent years and has paid dividends of around €125m to the State in the last four years after investing in infrastructure etc.

I think you can sit tight until next spring and wait for An Bord Pleanala to do their thing, and thank God that the an expensive new facility in Waterford Airport isn't gathering dust while the a*** has fallen out of the sector.

You can also say your prayers and hope that the State can continue to borrow tens of billions next year to keep funding Covid supports, otherwise we'll all become reacquainted with the term 'bailout' again.

Dum_Dum · 18-11-2020 12:50pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The credibility of your point starts to erode when you point the finger in other directions.

However the likes of Cork are they're definitely very fortunate to be run by the Dublin Airport Authority, which was very profitable in recent years and has paid dividends of around €125m to the State in the last four years after investing in infrastructure etc.

I think you can sit tight until next spring and wait for An Bord Pleanala to do their thing, and thank God that the an expensive new facility in Waterford Airport isn't gathering dust while the a*** has fallen out of the sector.

You can also say your prayers and hope that the State can continue to borrow tens of billions next year to keep funding Covid supports, otherwise we'll all become reacquainted with the term 'bailout' again.

You're playing the wrong game in Ireland's logic defying Parish Pump Economy. It's like you dropped in from space to instruct us on the right way of doing things.

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 12:55pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

You're playing the wrong game in Ireland's logic defying Parish Pump Economy. It's like you dropped in from space to instruct us on the right way of doing things.

So if I've picked you up correctly, you think that the Government should deposit the money in the airport company's account now and/or instruct An Bord Pleanala to give this project planning as soon as possible?

curmudgeonly · 18-11-2020 1:33pm

Lads please don't derail this thread, WFD is most probably never going to do the numbers of say Cork Or Knock, but and here's the rub, it has a potential to be the repair hub and air freight HUB for Ireland, that is the stark reality. As the bigger airports get back to a real economy after the pandemic , they don't want these industries taking up slots, this is the market WFD is aiming at and a few PAX flights a day.

BBM77 · 18-11-2020 2:35pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Come on, if you want to call me silly, a kid doing Junior Cert Business will grasp the basics of this.

The sector is in really dire straights. Airlines are barely hanging in there, airports are like ghost towns.

It'll be a number of years before demand for flights from you and me (consumers) returns to the levels they were at and it'll be a number of years before the companies who offer flights, lease aircrafts, make aircrafts, can get back to where they were.

So yes I think the company will do really well to avoid all of that, as I think they'd find it very difficult to reopen and try to add extra supply into a very depressed market. Basic supply and demand stuff.

This is BS in fairness. As others said we should not bother with the runaway extension and let others get funding for projects instead.

Thanks though for explaining the basics to me and my demand for flights over the coming years. 🙄

azimuth17 · 18-11-2020 5:35pm

The airport is there. It can either be closed or progress. The sector is down at the moment but will surely have huge rebound post Covid. If the facility is to be kept open then a jet runway is desirable. The cost is not prohibitive in light of proposed general spending on new national infrastructure and there are private backers in the wings (sorry!). It is difficult to understand all the "experts" obviously from outside Waterford who think we should just abandon our plans. Should we just rollover? Better let university and hospital services to Cork or Dublin while we're at it.

A new motorway from Cork to Ringaskiddy has just been cleared by the High Court. Traffic is light on motorways at present. Maybe Cork should abandon that piece of infrastructure? Cork airport also had debt forgiveness (rolled into DAA accounts) of nearly €200 m. We nee d less than 10% of that to create a jet runway at Waterford. Why would it not be done?

hardybuck · 18-11-2020 5:43pm

azimuth17 wrote: »

The airport is there. It can either be closed or progress. The sector is down at the moment but will surely have huge rebound post Covid. If the facility is to be kept open then a jet runway is desirable. The cost is not prohibitive in light of proposed general spending on new national infrastructure and there are private backers in the wings (sorry!). It is difficult to understand all the "experts" obviously from outside Waterford who think we should just abandon our plans. Should we just rollover? Better let university and hospital services to Cork or Dublin while we're at it.

A new motorway from Cork to Ringaskiddy has just been cleared by the High Court. Traffic is light on motorways at present. Maybe Cork should abandon that piece of infrastructure? Cork airport also had debt forgiveness (rolled into DAA accounts) of nearly €200 m. We nee d less than 10% of that to create a jet runway at Waterford. Why would it not be done?

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here, or elsewhere for that matter, has made any suggestions about plans being abandoned.

An Bord Pleanala is currently reviewing their planning application.

Harry Palmr · 18-11-2020 6:00pm

I just wish I knew what needs reviewing after months of reviewing time.

space2ground1 · 18-11-2020 8:01pm

curmudgeonly wrote: »

Lads please don't derail this thread, WFD is most probably never going to do the numbers of say Cork Or Knock, but and here's the rub, it has a potential to be the repair hub and air freight HUB for Ireland, that is the stark reality. As the bigger airports get back to a real economy after the pandemic , they don't want these industries taking up slots, this is the market WFD is aiming at and a few PAX flights a day.

Just thinking this too. The impression I get is that Waterford could be a solid base for maintenance and cargo. It’s expected that global demand for air cargo jets is expected to grow by over 60% in the next 20 years so regardless of the governments view on the airport, you can be sure that commercial projections like that are catching the attention of companies that would like a piece of that business and are extremely sensitive to costs. A bespoke setup with plenty of hangar and storage space could be very attractive if that expansion comes to fruition. Add in a few passenger flights to the UK or Central Europe and you’d have a solid operation. I’d be hopeful.

Wanderer78 · 19-11-2020 7:48am

space2ground1 wrote:

Just thinking this too. The impression I get is that Waterford could be a solid base for maintenance and cargo. Itâ€™s expected that global demand for air cargo jets is expected to grow by over 60% in the next 20 years so regardless of the governments view on the airport, you can be sure that commercial projections like that are catching the attention of companies that would like a piece of that business and are extremely sensitive to costs. A bespoke setup with plenty of hangar and storage space could be very attractive if that expansion comes to fruition. Add in a few passenger flights to the UK or Central Europe and youâ€™d have a solid operation. Iâ€™d be hopeful.

I'd be taking all economic projections with a rather large pinch of salt at the moment, this virus is throwing things all over the place, then we still have things such as brexit to contend with, the next few years could be rocky, it could go either way, we could largely gain, or largely lose, who knows

curmudgeonly · 19-11-2020 10:11am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'd be taking all economic projections with a rather large pinch of salt at the moment, this virus is throwing things all over the place, then we still have things such as brexit to contend with, the next few years could be rocky, it could go either way, we could largely gain, or largely lose, who knows

You covered all the angles there with an added dose of negativity, sometimes if you have nothing to say it is better to say nothing.

Dum_Dum · 19-11-2020 10:11am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'd be taking all economic projections with a rather large pinch of salt at the moment, this virus is throwing things all over the place, then we still have things such as brexit to contend with, the next few years could be rocky, it could go either way, we could largely gain, or largely lose, who knows

Waterford is sat down philosophising about coronavirus and Brexit while the rest of country is spending free money like goodo.

Wanderer78 · 19-11-2020 10:25am

curmudgeonly wrote: »

You covered all the angles there with an added dose of negativity, sometimes if you have nothing to say it is better to say nothing.

economic predictions/projections are notoriously fickle, particularly if theyre equilibrium based, the idea of turning waterford airport into a cargo base is extremely good though, being a largely passenger oriented airport is very risky, particularly at the moment

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Waterford is sat down philosophising about coronavirus and Brexit while the rest of country is spending free money like goodo.

money is rarely free, as its critical that serious attempts are made to pay the debts its based on, back, as our monetary systems have limited buffering capacity from things such as defaults and none performing loans. money only truly becomes free when these debts are defaulted upon or forgiven, which is rare enough.

Dum_Dum · 19-11-2020 4:48pm

hardybuck wrote: »

So if I've picked you up correctly, you think that the Government should deposit the money in the airport company's account now and/or instruct An Bord Pleanala to give this project planning as soon as possible?

Yes - something like that.

You see real power in government works like this: set up a South East Aviation Development Authority (SEAVIDA with brochures/nice logo) to 'build upon the South East's strategic location for European aviation' or some other bull$hit. It could bypass all the boring planning stuff (e.g. SDZ/Shannon Free Zone etc.). Runway built. Millions pumped into the Airport.

Next develop a centre of excellence for intermodal transport and logistics (INTERMOD with brochures/nice logo). Now link the Airport with the Port i.e. nice free tunnel under the Suir/ ring road complete. Add a sprinkling of green technologies and watch the money flow in.

Make sure the inevitable multi-million euro websites are developed in locally. All HQ's contrived in such a way as to be a massive liability on the State e.g. local council as landlord creaming in the rent and rates.

That's the cookbook. That's real power.

julyjane · 20-11-2020 9:36pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Some dross from Cork based Ralph Riegel of the Independent:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/delay-over-12m-waterford-airport-runway-extension-plan-39756143.html

Know your place little Waterford:

"In its final year of commercial flight operations, Waterford handled 13,511 passengers.... This was around 7,000 less than the total number of passengers handled by Connemara Airport"

Anyway, any updates as to why the decision was put back 4 months?

Comparing WAT to Connemara airport is like comparing apples with sausages. Connemara airport serves 3 offshore islands with heavily subsidised rates for islanders, I think islanders with free travel can fly for something like a fiver, if I had free travel and nothing else to be doing living on an island I'd be flying over to the mainland every second day.

dzilla · 23-11-2020 4:04pm

julyjane wrote: »

Comparing WAT to Connemara airport is like comparing apples with sausages. Connemara airport serves 3 offshore islands with heavily subsidised rates for islanders, I think islanders with free travel can fly for something like a fiver, if I had free travel and nothing else to be doing living on an island I'd be flying over to the mainland every second day.

It was a really weak stat that he used. Like in 2016 the airport had operations for like 5 and 1/2 months so that value he gave is only for less than a half a years operations... even if he averaged out from 2008 to 2016 it comes in at 68k pax per annum and that includes a recessionary period where less people would travel.

I get that he is trying to make the article as sensational as he can but at least give us the real facts not just some quick calculation/assumption he has made from wikipedia. The people paying for the examiner deserve that at least.

Waterford Airport.

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