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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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  • 11-04-2020 9:24pm
    #1
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭


    I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

    Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

    After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

    MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
    There will be a warning for anyone who:
    a) moans about teachers holidays
    b) moans about teachers pay
    c) moans for the sake of moaning
    D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
    Usual forum rules also apply.


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  • Options
    #2
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    political analyst wrote: »
    I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

    Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

    After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

    Another question
    What happens if a student /teacher develops covid 19 during the 2 weeks of classes /during exams
    Obviously the whole school community has to self isolate
    What happens exams then...........
    I really hope they are working on the background on alternative to LC in case it’s not safe to run it
    We do not want another postponement and another poorly thought out “plan”


  • Options
    #3
    Die Hard 2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 362 ✭✭Die Hard 2019


    km79 wrote: »
    Another question
    What happens if a student /teacher develops covid 19 during the 2 weeks of classes /during exams
    Obviously the whole school community has to self isolate
    What happens exams then...........
    I really hope they are working on the background on alternative to LC in case it’s not safe to run it
    We do not want another postponement and another poorly thought out “plan”

    There will not be traditional state exams this summer, the dept is just playing along so people don't panic, the lockdown will continue for far far longer than people realise.


  • Options
    #4
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    political analyst wrote: »
    I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

    Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

    After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

    They were separated out to alleviate the stress on exam students. English is a lot of writing. One of those exams in a day is enough.


  • Options
    #5
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I thought it was one a day so that students would not be congregating at lunchtimes.

    I just don't see how they will get all practicals, LCA tasks and orals done in the 2 weeks before the exams. There is just so much of it to get through, and often times it is the same examiner taking up a number of positions, which won't be possible if all on at the same time.


  • Options
    #6
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Random sample wrote: »
    They were separated out to alleviate the stress on exam students. English is a lot of writing. One of those exams in a day is enough.

    True
    Not sure whether spreading them out over a month might end up being counter productive in terms of motivation etc


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  • Options
    #7
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I thought it was one a day so that students would not be congregating at lunchtimes.

    I just don't see how they will get all practicals, LCA tasks and orals done in the 2 weeks before the exams. There is just so much of it to get through, and often times it is the same examiner taking up a number of positions, which won't be possible if all on at the same time.
    The practices have to go the same way as the Orals
    In fact I think the music one did ? Seems unfair students studying the other practical subjects are not getting treated the same
    They will when /if the time comes though imo


  • Options
    #8
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I'd imagine so, because 14 days for all of them is just an impossibility.


  • Options
    #9
    ooter
    Registered Users Posts: 2,983 ✭✭✭ooter


    km79 wrote: »
    Another question
    What happens if a student /teacher develops covid 19 during the 2 weeks of classes /during exams
    Obviously the whole school community has to self isolate
    What happens exams then...........

    that's what I have been wondering, as things stand pupils who become unexpectedly ill during the exam period must still sit their papers but that's not going to happen if a student(s) contracts C 19.


  • Options
    #10
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    political analyst wrote: »
    I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

    Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

    After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

    Both English exams on the same day is cruel in terms of the writing quantity in my opinion.

    However in the current crisis and uncertainty I’d be inclined to be getting as many over as possible in case a centre gets a diagnosed case etc.

    So even
    English P1 maths P1,
    English P2, Maths P2.
    Then break up a little with smaller subjects as usual
    Irish P1 with Home ec,
    Irish P2 with Engineering.
    Then revert to normal. Means in four days the three key matriculation ones are done so even if things go belly up....

    Interesting coverage of the proposal today though. Colm of Rourkes headline is funny if accurate


  • Options
    #11
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Both English exams on the same day is cruel in terms of the writing quantity in my opinion.

    However in the current crisis and uncertainty I’d be inclined to be getting as many over as possible in case a centre gets a diagnosed case etc.

    So even
    English P1 maths P1,
    English P2, Maths P2.
    Then break up a little with smaller subjects as usual
    Irish P1 with Home ec,
    Irish P2 with Engineering.
    Then revert to normal. Means in four days the three key matriculation ones are done so even if things go belly up....

    Interesting coverage of the proposal today though. Colm of Rourkes headline is funny if accurate

    If he agrees with us we know that’s things are bad


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  • Options
    #12
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭political analyst


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I thought it was one a day so that students would not be congregating at lunchtimes.

    I just don't see how they will get all practicals, LCA tasks and orals done in the 2 weeks before the exams. There is just so much of it to get through, and often times it is the same examiner taking up a number of positions, which won't be possible if all on at the same time.

    I was referring to the usual schedule for the exams, not this year's emergency schedule, which hasn't even been compiled yet.


  • Options
    #13
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    So when the exam finishes, they won't congregate and have an old fashioned postmortem?


  • Options
    #14
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    727 new cases today (I am aware of german lab results etc)
    I hope they have a contingency/are working on contingency for no LC taking place

    Never mind 430 the rest were from German tests
    Still not great


  • Options
    #15
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    km79 wrote: »
    If he agrees with us we know that’s things are bad

    That's exactly what I thought when I read the piece this morning!:D


  • Options
    #16
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Both English exams on the same day is cruel in terms of the writing quantity in my opinion.

    However in the current crisis and uncertainty I’d be inclined to be getting as many over as possible in case a centre gets a diagnosed case etc.

    So even
    English P1 maths P1,
    English P2, Maths P2.
    Then break up a little with smaller subjects as usual
    Irish P1 with Home ec,
    Irish P2 with Engineering.
    Then revert to normal. Means in four days the three key matriculation ones are done so even if things go belly up....

    Interesting coverage of the proposal today though. Colm of Rourkes headline is funny if accurate


    Ya I don't see any reason not to have two subjects in a day even if the core (English, Irish, Maths) were 1 per day for the first few days. All the rest are choice subjects, and once you get some of the more popular ones out of the way like Biology, French, Geography, there's no reason you couldn't have two in a day. I teach Physics and it's a small subject and would have small enough classes around the country. Can't imagine there's any school with more than one LC class. No reason that couldn't be paired with Geography or something similar where the chances of a large cohort of students doing both is small by virtue of the fact that Physics classes are smaller anyway. Same with lots of the random minority subjects like Latin, Italian, Applied Maths etc.


  • Options
    #17
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    political analyst wrote: »
    I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

    Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

    After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

    It's too heavy going in the first three days. Both English papers used to be on the same day until 2009, until an examiner gave out Paper 2 in the morning instead of Paper 1, realised his mistake a couple of minutes later but students had seen some of the questions. He should have run the exam and the students be kept in with no contact with outside (no phones at lunch, lunch brought into them etc) and run paper 1 in the afternoon. He didn't do that, he didn't inform the SEC and a student from the school when they left English Paper 1 tweeted about Paper 2 and that's how the SEC found out. Paper 2 for the afternoon was cancelled and a new paper was run on the Saturday. Think it cost the SEC around €1 million to re-run the exam.

    After that English was split over two days to prevent that happening again. Irish and Maths were already on separate days so the issue wouldn't arise. Splitting of English would have been welcomed anyway as it's a very heavy day with 5 or so hours of writing, so it was a welcome decision overall I think.


  • Options
    #18
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    km79 wrote: »
    727 new cases today (I am aware of german lab results etc)
    I hope they have a contingency/are working on contingency for no LC taking place

    Never mind 430 the rest were from German tests
    Still not great

    No, but if the backlog is cleared over the next week, and it's looking like it will, it might give a clearer picture where things stand. While it's not great, it's encouraging that we are not producing over 1000 new cases every day.


  • Options
    #19
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    That's exactly what I thought when I read the piece this morning!:D

    He makes an awful lot of the same points we have made though to be fair


    Seems fine with teachers correcting JC papers though ......no mention of that


  • Options
    #20
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    km79 wrote: »
    He makes an awful lot of the same points we have made though to be fair


    Seems fine with teachers correcting JC papers though ......no mention of that

    Ya that part was conspicuously absent.


  • Options
    #21
    Mehan2000
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Mehan2000


    How will they facilitate junior cert exams if half of third years do TY and half do fifth year?


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    #22
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    If they can't manage the LC and whatever is necessary to get it done, how will they manage college, work, the real world.


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    #23
    RH149
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭RH149


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It's too heavy going in the first three days. Both English papers used to be on the same day until 2009, until an examiner gave out Paper 2 in the morning instead of Paper 1, realised his mistake a couple of minutes later but students had seen some of the questions. He should have run the exam and the students be kept in with no contact with outside (no phones at lunch, lunch brought into them etc) and run paper 1 in the afternoon. He didn't do that, he didn't inform the SEC and a student from the school when they left English Paper 1 tweeted about Paper 2 and that's how the SEC found out. Paper 2 for the afternoon was cancelled and a new paper was run on the Saturday. Think it cost the SEC around €1 million to re-run the exam.

    After that English was split over two days to prevent that happening again. Irish and Maths were already on separate days so the issue wouldn't arise. Splitting of English would have been welcomed anyway as it's a very heavy day with 5 or so hours of writing, so it was a welcome decision overall I think.


    English had already been split before that- I remember telling my English class that for once the Dept of Ed had seen sense and acknowledged that two English papers on one day was far too much writing. That was why the mistake with the examiner accidentally giving out the wrong paper couldn't be rectified...it wasn't a matter of holding the students in the centre over lunch, he would have had to hold them there overnight as English P2 was scheduled for the following afternoon. Rescheduling for Saturday and using the back up paper was the only option.

    I don't supervise for the State exams but ever since that disaster I don't just double check I triple check any mock papers before i hand them out!


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    #24
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya that part was conspicuously absent.

    To be honest I don’t think there’s going to be any discussion about the ridiculousness that is the junior cert proposal until the LC is clarified and a bit more set up


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    #25
    alroley
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭alroley


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It's too heavy going in the first three days. Both English papers used to be on the same day until 2009, until an examiner gave out Paper 2 in the morning instead of Paper 1, realised his mistake a couple of minutes later but students had seen some of the questions. He should have run the exam and the students be kept in with no contact with outside (no phones at lunch, lunch brought into them etc) and run paper 1 in the afternoon. He didn't do that, he didn't inform the SEC and a student from the school when they left English Paper 1 tweeted about Paper 2 and that's how the SEC found out. Paper 2 for the afternoon was cancelled and a new paper was run on the Saturday. Think it cost the SEC around €1 million to re-run the exam.

    After that English was split over two days to prevent that happening again. Irish and Maths were already on separate days so the issue wouldn't arise. Splitting of English would have been welcomed anyway as it's a very heavy day with 5 or so hours of writing, so it was a welcome decision overall I think.


    I did my LC that year and paper 2 was already meant to be on a different day because I remember finding out later that evening that it had been moved to Saturday.


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    #26
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Rosita


    Mehan2000 wrote: »
    How will they facilitate junior cert exams if half of third years do TY and half do fifth year?

    I think schools will have to hold the exams more or less straightaway at the start of the year (if there isn't too much talk of molly-coddling them for a few weeks beforehand) and defer the other students coming back for a week or two. It'd be mad to form TY and Fifth Year classes (well actually forming them is no harm) - but not much point in doing so and then creating disruption and hassle to timetabled classes.

    On the other hand there looks like a good chance students will be coming in on a part-time piecemeal basis in September anyway so organising the exams might be less hassle than if the school was trying to be up and running fully with a full cohort of students.

    All that said, the Dept statement said they would send out the papers and if that's the case the exams will gave to be timetabled the same in every school if the exam is not to be leaked far and wide. They also want assessment tasks/projects completed with no mention of when. That's one if the enormously ill-thought out issues raised by that the Dept statement re. the JC. Though I suppose it is only a proposal albeit a publicly-announced one.


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    #27
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I'm thinking since Friday about how implausible it is for schools to have all assessments and practicals done in a 2 week block.

    Was trying to make a list about what might happen when.

    Mid July - in 2 weeks we have:
    Computer Science Project
    Engineering Project finished
    Engineering Practical
    History booklet
    Geography booklet
    Ag Science booklet
    Art
    PE performance test
    Construction
    Religion
    Politics and Society

    All the while teaching blocks?


    August - extra exams to be timetabled:
    Computer Science Exam
    LCVP Exam
    LCA ICT Exam
    LCA Tasks Interviews


    This is far from a complete list but I'd love if others added to it, just to see how hair brained it is when it's all put together.


  • Options
    #28
    CWF
    Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭CWF


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I'm thinking since Friday about how implausible it is for schools to have all assessments and practicals done in a 2 week block.

    Was trying to make a list about what might happen when.

    Mid July - in 2 weeks we have:
    Computer Science Project
    Engineering Project finished
    Engineering Practical
    History booklet
    Geography booklet
    Ag Science booklet
    Art
    PE performance test
    Construction
    Religion
    Politics and Society

    All the while teaching blocks?


    August - extra exams to be timetabled:
    Computer Science Exam
    LCVP Exam
    LCA ICT Exam
    LCA Tasks Interviews


    This is far from a complete list but I'd love if others added to it, just to see how hair brained it is when it's all put together.

    LC Engineering Project deadline was March 6th so tools are down there. You can add the JC Metalwork practical to be done in that two week time frame


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    #29
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya I don't see any reason not to have two subjects in a day even if the core (English, Irish, Maths) were 1 per day for the first few days. All the rest are choice subjects, and once you get some of the more popular ones out of the way like Biology, French, Geography, there's no reason you couldn't have two in a day. I teach Physics and it's a small subject and would have small enough classes around the country. Can't imagine there's any school with more than one LC class. No reason that couldn't be paired with Geography or something similar where the chances of a large cohort of students doing both is small by virtue of the fact that Physics classes are smaller anyway. Same with lots of the random minority subjects like Latin, Italian, Applied Maths etc.

    School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

    There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
    There can’t be any clashes


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    #30
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

    There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
    There can’t be any clashes
    2 physics
    2 chemistry
    5 biology
    2 geography
    1 applied maths in our school


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    #31
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    School I teach in has two LC Physics classes, 2 LC Chemistry classes and 3 LB Bio glasses as well as 2 applied maths classes and LC PE.

    There’s a lot of crossover with geography, even with some of the physics students so it’s a non runner.
    There can’t be any clashes

    No I didn't mean that they should run at the same time, I meant one in the morning and one in the afternoon. I was just picking physics as an example. There are plenty of subjects which have small enough numbers which would mean the number of students who would sit two exams on one day (and be hanging around during the lunch break) would be small enough.

    I'm going to take a wild guess that the numbers taking home economics and DCG probably don't overlap too much. Wouldn't be too hard to pick subjects with small number of overlapping students to try and get two subjects done on some days, if the current proposal is to have only one exam per day.


This discussion has been closed.
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