When will men get liberated from gender roles?

mr_fegelien · 08-02-2020 10:41am #1

60 years ago, any woman who would have worn trousers would have been laughed at like a man wearing skirts in modern times. Today, women wearing pants elicits no response.

Women also can take up STEM subjects, don't have to get married, can act masculine, are leaders of countries etc...

Yet men are still ridiculed for wearing feminine attire, choosing careers like nursing, etc..

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

s7ryf3925pivug · 08-02-2020 10:42am

I'd be more concerned about what happens to fathers in the event of separation.

08-02-2020 10:51am

My concept of gender is fixed, not fluid. Thanks for asking.

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 11:03am

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Yet men are still ridiculed for wearing feminine attire, choosing careers like nursing, etc..

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

Because men in women’s clothing look ridiculous, and people aren’t afraid to show their disdain for such nonsense. Men are ridiculed for taking low-paying ****e jobs because they’re expected to be capable of more. Men don’t have a “feminine side”, they’re men - masculine. Men are expected to behave like men and not behave like women. Why should men who want to behave like women expect people to accept that sort of behaviour?

I don’t think anyone is “afraid” to show their feminine side or their masculine side. I think they’re fully conscious that there are social standards expected of them and nobody in society can simply be who they want and expect other people should just accept that. Society has no time for selfish individuals.

Leg End Reject · 08-02-2020 11:04am

Women campaigned for change and equal rights.

I hope you're going to lead the way for men to have the right to wear skirts without ridicule, Mr_F.

But a quick point, I don't think any normal person mocks male nurses in this day and age.

08-02-2020 11:08am

Leg End Reject wrote: »

Women campaigned for change and equal rights.

Actually, quite a few men were there with them during those campaigns. My father marched with my mother for equal rights throughout the 60s/70s.

whisky_galore · 08-02-2020 11:10am

Which pretty frock are you going to wear today, OP?

ILoveYourVibes · 08-02-2020 11:11am

They have always been free to do this. They just don't want to. They look down on feminine men.

The only people keeping men oppressed in a way that has anything to do with gender is MEN.

Leg End Reject · 08-02-2020 11:12am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, quite a few men were there with them during those campaigns. My father marched with my mother for equal rights throughout the 60s/70s.

I was wasn't suggesting they didn't, nor trying to score points. I'm just not sure feg understands the issues men should be campaigning for, skirts are either a very low, or nonexistent, issue.

Fair play to your father though.

ILoveYourVibes · 08-02-2020 11:15am

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about what happens to fathers in the event of separation.

Do you not think that is a cultural by product of these gender roles?

08-02-2020 11:15am

Any time something at work needs carried it's the men called on to help. Even though it's often light stuff. The office is very warm so you end up back at your desk all sweaty. Pisses me off.

ILoveYourVibes · 08-02-2020 11:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

Any time something at work needs carried it's the men called on to help. Even though it's often light stuff. The office is very warm so you end up back at your desk all sweaty. Pisses me off.

You are physically stronger. Be mature.

08-02-2020 11:18am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are physically stronger. Be mature.

Its light stuff easily carried by men or woman. Some of the women could do with the exercise too.

I'm going to be refusing from now on. Bad back will be the excuse.

johnmcdnl · 08-02-2020 11:21am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Any time something at work needs carried it's the men called on to help. Even though it's often light stuff. The office is very warm so you end up back at your desk all sweaty. Pisses me off.

How about next time someone asks you for help carrying something, ask me or some of your other male (or female) colleagues to do it instead if it's that big of an issue for you.

08-02-2020 11:22am

Leg End Reject wrote: »

I was wasn't suggesting they didn't, nor trying to score points. I'm just not sure feg understands the issues men should be campaigning for, skirts are either a very low, or nonexistent, issue.

Fair play to your father though.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were. It's just a fairly common thing to see where males are excluded from any involvement for women's rights. It's something that they needed to do in the face of male resistance.. yadda yadda yadda (irrespective that a lot of the resistance came from other women).

I would agree that men's rights should be more concerned with actual rights. Equality in the workplace/society, the removal of gender quotas, fathers rights, better funding for male related health concerns, educational problems for males in schooling.

TBH, I think campaigning for male rights is pretty useless. Feminism has momentum built in that area, and male rights are generally perceived as being opposed to female rights. You can't have one without taking away from the other, which means there will be serious resistance regardless of how reasonable the argument is.

Instead, males should be pushing for egalitarianism. Equality of opportunity, and a society that stops placing so much emphasis on gender.

suicide_circus · 08-02-2020 11:24am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They have always been free to do this. They just don't want to.

and its a good thing too. we can thank all the traditional male types for our warm dry homes with plumbing and electricity, every time our waste is collected, every time we get on a plane, train or automobile.

08-02-2020 11:25am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

How about next time someone asks you for help carrying something, ask me or some of your other male (or female) colleagues to do it instead if it's that big of an issue for you.

Ask you?

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 11:25am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Do you not think that is a cultural by product of these gender roles?

To be fair, it’s more commonly known as empathy. For that poster, of greater concern to them is how separated fathers are treated, than men who choose to wear women’s clothing.

Fathers separated because they want to wear women’s clothing might present something of a conundrum as to how far their empathy goes :pac:

08-02-2020 11:26am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are physically stronger. Be mature.

Maybe. That's an assumption based on outdated stereotypes. Many males these days aren't particularly strong. I have very little muscle on my upper body. I'm 192 cm tall, and I can use my height/weight in terms of strength, but I don't have much strength for carrying things. My sister is half my height, carries three children around daily, and is far stronger than me.

In a fight, I'd win. In terms of carrying things, she'd win easily.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 11:28am

I don't know about you lot, but I am such a basic bitch sometimes. OMG I can't EVEN!!!

Your Face · 08-02-2020 11:30am

Kilts.

So now what?

08-02-2020 11:37am

I don't mind carrying items for an old woman or if something is particularly heavy. Often its old files and they are light enough but there can be lots off them. Its sweaty work in a warm office.

s7ryf3925pivug · 08-02-2020 11:37am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Do you not think that is a cultural by product of these gender roles?

It results from perceived gender roles, which is why I posted it. However I don't think a man needs to come across as feminine in any way to be a good father or be kind or gentle etc. I don't care whether a guy wants to be effeminate or dress in womens clothes or anything else. I just think it's irrelevant to whether or not he possesses nurturing traits. Hence I'm more concerned with what happens to fathers when they separate. In general they are assumed to be the lesser parent just because they are male.

Peatys · 08-02-2020 11:39am

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Yet men are still ridiculed for wearing feminine attire, choosing careers like nursing, etc..

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

Think you're 30 years behind the times. I don't know anyone who would think twice about a male nurse.

What sort of ridicule have you seen?

Alf Veedersane · 08-02-2020 11:41am

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

Because I can't sit with my legs closed for too long and if I wear a skirt, i have to wait until the warmer weather for less ridicule...

chrissb8 · 08-02-2020 12:22pm

Be whoever you're comfortable being. Anyone who cares about anyone else's business is a pathetic loser who needs to get a grip of themselves.

That said, societal behaviours are distinct. In that, they have been around and changed over 100's of years. So when a person is born and raised they are presented with a "how to" in terms of how to act. For both genders, there is a general way to act and be. It's a logical way in which people can construct their personality around it, or even against it.

I don't think this is a bad thing as you can discover who you are when you have a framework to work off in how to construct identity. So you end up with men who adopt purely masculine traits and come out as a very masculine person than you have others who adopt predominately from the feminine side and have less masculine traits.

Gender norms are in society for a reason because they give structure. How each person formulates their identity from these or even against them, as I said, is upto them. This could all change in years and most likely will but the admonishing of men being men makes no sense. That is who they are comfortable being.

There's just idiots out there who would believe us all to be one or the other. Which would be incredibly boring. Just embrace each other.

ArchXStanton · 08-02-2020 12:24pm

When men abandon them

One of the bonuses of feminism was liberating men from chains they didn't know they had

Brian? · 08-02-2020 12:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My concept of gender is fixed, not fluid. Thanks for asking.

Who says you have to belieb gender is fluid to wear a dress?

I think the question in the OP is a good one. Men get ridiculed and judged for wearing women's clothes, but not vice versa.

Brian? · 08-02-2020 12:25pm

Valentino Old-fashioned Spacecraft wrote: »

I'd be more concerned about what happens to fathers in the event of separation.

You know you can be concerned by multiple things at once?

Fr_Dougal · 08-02-2020 12:28pm

Do your research a bit better, OP.

Google “bell bottom trousers’, you’re way off.

Mad_maxx · 08-02-2020 12:36pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

60 years ago, any woman who would have worn trousers would have been laughed at like a man wearing skirts in modern times. Today, women wearing pants elicits no response.

Women also can take up STEM subjects, don't have to get married, can act masculine, are leaders of countries etc...

Yet men are still ridiculed for wearing feminine attire, choosing careers like nursing, etc..

Why is this? When will men "women up" and not be afraid of showing their feminine side?

Soc Dem voter eh

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 12:41pm

ArchXStanton wrote: »

When men abandon them

One of the bonuses of feminism was liberating men from chains they didn't know they had

I had to laugh at that one...Feminism is fighting mother nature...nobody has ever won that battle.

They tried all this when the Jews established the Kibbutz over 100 years ago...removing gender roles and expectations...women were free to work the same jobs as men, nobody got married, kids were raised in separate dwellings so as not to contaminate them...

Guess what happened...it took a generation or two but women wanted to get married and live with their husbands and kids and work different jobs to men, today, men in the kibbutz do the majority of farm and tech work, women look after everything else....

Look around you, does anyone actually believe we are emotionally healthier than we were....what do people think is driving the epidemic of narcissism, anxiety, loneliness...we will start to see this reflected in marriage and birth rates...there will be a huge increase in the amount of women who will never experience motherhood at a time when we all get to live well into our 80s and 90s....that is a long long life to be on your own without family.

Maybe there was a reason societies built themselves on what gender roles best suited the genders....

Mad_maxx · 08-02-2020 12:46pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I had to laugh at that one...Feminism is fighting mother nature...nobody has ever won that battle.

They tried all this when the Jews established the Kibbutz over 100 years ago...removing gender roles and expectations...women were free to work the same jobs as men, nobody got married, kids were raised in separate dwellings so as not to contaminate them...

Guess what happened...it took a generation or two but women wanted to get married and live with their husbands and kids and work different jobs to men, today, men in the kibbutz do the majority of farm and tech work, women look after everything else....

Look around you, does anyone actually believe we are emotionally healthier than we were....what do people think is driving the epidemic of narcissism, anxiety, loneliness...we will start to see this reflected in marriage and birth rates...there will be a huge increase in the amount of women who will never experience motherhood at a time when we all get to live well into our 80s and 90s....that is a long long life to be on your own without family.

Maybe there was a reason societies built themselves on what gender roles best suited the genders....

The notion - advanced argument that conforming to "traditional gender stereotypes" is what results in male suicide or general mental health problems is laughable at best and at worst designed to lead young men and boys astray

Fifty years ago men were far more likely to conform to traditional male characteristics yet there was nothing like the level of mental health issues compared to today

When will we stop paying attention to liberals, they are wrong about everything

Church on Tuesday · 08-02-2020 1:08pm

My brother is a male nurse and trust me it's not for the faint of heart by times.

Male nurses has been a thing for years now.

ArchXStanton · 08-02-2020 1:13pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I had to laugh at that one...Feminism is fighting mother nature...nobody has ever won that battle.

They tried all this when the Jews established the Kibbutz over 100 years ago...removing gender roles and expectations...women were free to work the same jobs as men, nobody got married, kids were raised in separate dwellings so as not to contaminate them...

Guess what happened...it took a generation or two but women wanted to get married and live with their husbands and kids and work different jobs to men, today, men in the kibbutz do the majority of farm and tech work, women look after everything else....

Look around you, does anyone actually believe we are emotionally healthier than we were....what do people think is driving the epidemic of narcissism, anxiety, loneliness...we will start to see this reflected in marriage and birth rates...there will be a huge increase in the amount of women who will never experience motherhood at a time when we all get to live well into our 80s and 90s....that is a long long life to be on your own without family.

Maybe there was a reason societies built themselves on what gender roles best suited the genders....

I know

Austria! · 08-02-2020 1:19pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The only people keeping men oppressed in a way that has anything to do with gender is MEN.

The legal system oppresses men too.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 2:00pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, quite a few men were there with them during those campaigns. My father marched with my mother for equal rights throughout the 60s/70s.

Yeah that’s the way these things work. A lot of the prominent feminists on these threads are supporters of men’s rights issues. Almost all the opposition to men’s tights issues comes from men though which is a shame.

Ultimately things change when proper make them change. Some things do change by accident as a consequence of other changes - which people pushed for. If men don’t campaign to change the things they want to see change, then nothing will happen.

There are some really clear and fairly uncontroversial issues which affect men and would be ripe for change. Boys falling behind in education, men’s mental and physical health, fathers’ treatment in family courts.

Alas, the push for change probably has to come from men and, at the moment, enough men are not actively pursuing those changes.

Fr_Dougal · 08-02-2020 2:30pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The only people keeping men oppressed in a way that has anything to do with gender is MEN.

Wow...victim blaming...

Silentcorner · 08-02-2020 2:33pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah that’s the way these things work. A lot of the prominent feminists on these threads are supporters of men’s rights issues. Almost all the opposition to men’s tights issues comes from men though which is a shame.

Ultimately things change when proper make them change. Some things do change by accident as a consequence of other changes - which people pushed for. If men don’t campaign to change the things they want to see change, then nothing will happen.

There are some really clear and fairly uncontroversial issues which affect men and would be ripe for change. Boys falling behind in education, men’s mental and physical health, fathers’ treatment in family courts.

Alas, the push for change probably has to come from men and, at the moment, enough men are not actively pursuing those changes.

See...the problem with all that is...no one knows what feminism is anymore...how can any reasoned individual can (often proudly) identify themselves as a feminist is beyond me...the feminism we see in media is all unbalanced gibberish from mainly women who are completely ill informed when it comes to anything that doesn't involve themselves with a cult like loyalty to a rather infantile theory/ideology of "patriarchial oppression".

I have to say, maybe with one or two exceptions, on boards, feminists are even more ignorant of issues facing men than most men are and that is saying something.

What you have identified are real issues and certainly men and women need to educate themselves properly on how our society treats one another but what doesn't help is a clearly divisive movement that is well funded and afforded way more influence than it should receive, the movement itself abuses that power repeatedly...often to the detriment of women I might add...selling useless Gender Studies degrees to women is immoral but what do I know!!!

VayNiice · 08-02-2020 2:38pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because men in women’s clothing look ridiculous, and people aren’t afraid to show their disdain for such nonsense. Men are ridiculed for taking low-paying ****e jobs because they’re expected to be capable of more. Men don’t have a “feminine side”, they’re men - masculine. Men are expected to behave like men and not behave like women. Why should men who want to behave like women expect people to accept that sort of behaviour?

I don’t think anyone is “afraid” to show their feminine side or their masculine side. I think they’re fully conscious that there are social standards expected of them and nobody in society can simply be who they want and expect other people should just accept that. Society has no time for selfish individuals.

Jaysus you sound like you're living in the 1950s. I bet you abuse lads for wearing fashionable clothes too?

spurious · 08-02-2020 2:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Instead, males should be pushing for egalitarianism. Equality of opportunity, and a society that stops placing so much emphasis on gender.

I agree. That is feminism, when you take away the cartoon version so many in AH are attached to.

the_pen_turner · 08-02-2020 2:46pm

spurious wrote: »

I agree. That is feminism, when you take away the cartoon version so many in AH are attached to.

historically femanism was about freeing women , getting the right to vote, not be raped or attacked in their own homes, right to get a job etc. all great causes

now its twisted into a big mess that is caused by all the crazies out there creating issues out of nothing and brainwashing people into believeing this crap.

08-02-2020 2:50pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

historically femanism was about freeing women , getting the right to vote, not be raped or attacked in their own homes, right to get a job etc.

That's all small fry.

Now it's on to the big stuff like men talking about football at their desks and mens razors being cheaper than womens.

pawdee · 08-02-2020 2:52pm

The first time I heard the term "gender fluid" was when the lad in RTE announced that he was going to be wearing a frock and wanted to be called Rachel two days a week. He had a handbag and everything. I haven't heard anything about him (her?) since. I wonder how he / she's getting on? I'd heard of brake fluid, transmission fluid, Jeye's Fluid etc but never gender fluid. Every day's a school day I suppose.

jimgoose · 08-02-2020 3:11pm

pawdee wrote: »

...transmission fluid...

It's "cismission" fluid nowadays. "Transmission" fluid is only used by weird German flappy-paddle DCT setups that are a little bit Bratwurst and a little bit Apfel Strudel.

mc25 · 08-02-2020 3:13pm

About the gender roles in work, I agree it is unfair to always ask the men to do the literal heavy lifting. We should definitely change that!

But for other things, it can be that it's the women always getting asked to do stuff.

For example in my office we have a cake fund (everyone contributes about a tenner a year) and then we use it to get a cake for people on their birthday. In all my 4 years of working there, it has never been a man's job to look after the money, buy the cakes etc.

I've anecdotally (so probably nonsense) heard of women always being asked to take notes, get coffee and such for meetings, but I've never seen it myself

mc25 · 08-02-2020 3:14pm

About the gender roles in work, I agree it is unfair to always ask the men to do the literal heavy lifting. We should definitely change that!

But for other things, it can be that it's the women always getting asked to do stuff.

For example in my office we have a cake fund (everyone contributes about a tenner a year) and then we use it to get a cake for people on their birthday. In 4 years of working there, it has never been a man's job to look after the money, buy the cakes etc.

I've anecdotally (so probably nonsense) heard of women always being asked to take notes, get coffee and such for meetings, but I've never seen it myself

El_Duderino 09 · 08-02-2020 3:25pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

See...the problem with all that is...no one knows what feminism is anymore...how can any reasoned individual can (often proudly) identify themselves as a feminist is beyond me...the feminism we see in media is all unbalanced gibberish from mainly women who are completely ill informed when it comes to anything that doesn't involve themselves with a cult like loyalty to a rather infantile theory/ideology of "patriarchial oppression".

I have to say, maybe with one or two exceptions, on boards, feminists are even more ignorant of issues facing men than most men are and that is saying something.

What you have identified are real issues and certainly men and women need to educate themselves properly on how our society treats one another but what doesn't help is a clearly divisive movement that is well funded and afforded way more influence than it should receive, the movement itself abuses that power repeatedly...often to the detriment of women I might add...selling useless Gender Studies degrees to women is immoral but what do I know!!!

No that " nobody knows what feminism is any more" is not the problem.with what I said. You're entire post referred to feminism. What men's issues needs is a push to address men's issues. If the solution to men's issues was to whinge, piss and moan about feminism. then men's issues would have been solved in no time.

But the way to actually solve men issues is to campaign to change those men's issues.

suicide_circus · 08-02-2020 3:30pm

A Paleo Diet or Caveman Diet is lauded for promoting health by confining your diet to food available to hunter gatherers - meat, berries, nuts etc and no dairy, processed foods, refined sugars etc.

How about Paleo gender roles?

One eyed Jack · 08-02-2020 3:34pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Almost all the opposition to men’s tights issues comes from men though which is a shame.

They’re not designed for men though, of course men are going to have issues wearing them

milehip · 08-02-2020 3:41pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't mind carrying items for an old woman or if something is particularly heavy. Often its old files and they are light enough but there can be lots off them. Its sweaty work in a warm office.

Strip down to revel a mankini, doubt you'll be asked again.

When will men get liberated from gender roles?

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