Bad kids from good parents

13-05-2021 1:23pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It was better than nothing1

No it wasn't.

Are you aware of the scale of abuse that occurred in that place? Boys, buried in unmarked graves that were beaten to death?

My father died over 35 years ago, and he revealed a few details to us of what went on there before any of the clerical abuse scandals ever came to light.

A place like Artane should never exist again.

seamus · 13-05-2021 3:41pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

When Artane was open there was none of that kind of malarkey at the station going on. If parents couldn't mind their kids, the kids were taken to Artane. You could leave your bicycle unlocked in O Connell street and return for it and get it hours later.

Rose-tinted glasses.

Bicycle theft was actually one of the most prolific crimes that Gardai dealt with in the early years of the Republic.

The whole notion that countries under conservative and more penal regimes have less crime, or had less crime in the past, is actually complete crap put forward by people who yearn for the "rare aul times".

Yes in the days of Artane, you could leave your front door unlocked. And thousands got burgled.

Phoenix32 · 13-05-2021 3:49pm

I don't think good parents can raise bad kids. But you can be a nice person and still not be a very good parent and it can cause issues later on. These things aren't black and white. I don't think a bad childhood excuses bad behaviour in adulthood but it certainly explains it and gives us a reason why the person turned out the way that they did. Not too many people with a normal upbringing go on to murder, just saying.

mariaalice · 13-05-2021 4:18pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

When I was a teenager I hung around with some bad people.
I did beat people up and commit some crimes with them. The more you get away with it the more normal you think it is.
If I had been caught it would have probably left me to go down that road for the rest of my life.
Fortunately I never got caught.
Then you come to a point where you eother realize its not cool, or you think its still cool. Thats your turning point for where you go as an adult.
Eventually in my 20s I grew out of such behavior and stopped hanging around with people who were toxic and started hanging around with good people. I havent been in a jot of trouble since and have been a good upstanding member of society.
So what led me there? Simple. They people who I hung out with in my formative years were the people I learned to behave from.
When I was a teenager and was getting kudos for hanging out with the cool guys, I followed them. So happened where I grew up the cool guys were also bad guys and from bad families.
So years later, looking back I can see the people who didnt hang with us, or who even broke off from that crowd before I did, have all done really well for themselves.
Those who stayed in that mode are all either dead, wasters, drug addicts or criminals now.

Watch who your kids are hanging around with when you are not there when they are teenagers. If you let them in, thats who will shape your kids, not you.

PS. I have one friend now who was bullied in school. He has sent his two boys to train to fight from a young age so they could fight back.
Now, both of them at 16 and 17, it turns out are the school bullies now. Im told by someone I know close to the situation, that those twos training has made everyone afraid of them and they now realize it and are taking advantage of it and are running their own little clique of pr1cks. This person thinks these two lads are the next scumbag heavies of the area.
So they were taught to be tough, with good intesions, and it backfired.

You haven't mentioned your parents in all this.

Second, people choose who to hang around with why make that choice and not the other choice.

13-05-2021 4:24pm

mariaalice wrote: »

You haven't mentioned your parents in all this.

Second, people choose who to hang around with why make that choice and not the other choice.

I think that is a very simplistic view. The teenage years are fraught with emotional landmines and longing for acceptance. It is a period of our lives where fitting in is paramount.

Jequ0n · 13-05-2021 4:33pm

mariaalice wrote: »

You haven't mentioned your parents in all this.

Second, people choose who to hang around with why make that choice and not the other choice.

Why make the choice not to chose punctuation?

mariaalice · 13-05-2021 4:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that is a very simplistic view. The teenage years are fraught with emotional landmines and longing for acceptance. It is a period of our lives where fitting in is paramount.

Yes of course, but fitting in can mean joining the scouts or being involved in sport or music or any number of avenues.

There is a difference between doing stupid things as a teenager which we all did versus doing criminal things as a teenager.

mariaalice · 13-05-2021 4:35pm

Jequ0n wrote: »

Why make the choice not to chose punctuation?

So your point is to make a point about grammar?

13-05-2021 4:39pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes of course, but fitting in can mean joining the scouts or being involved in sport or music or any number of avenues.

There is a difference between doing stupid things as a teenager which we all did versus doing criminal things as a teenager.

Joining the scouts? You think a kid who lives in chaos and wants to belong yet doesn't have many options for healthy peer groups can join the scouts?

Or a kid who does have those options but doesn't feel like they do. They look up to the local hard boys and feel a sense of acceptance from them that they don't receive at home.

Or a kid who is too damned scared to walk away.

Jequ0n · 13-05-2021 4:39pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes of course, but fitting in can mean joining the scouts or being involved in sport or music or any number of avenues.

There is a difference between doing stupid things as a teenager which we all did versus doing criminal things as a teenager.

Because it’s more fun, more thrilling and gives you more peer admiration even if you don’t like it.

Regarding your question: yes please break up your sentences with punctuation, they are at times difficult to read

mariaalice · 13-05-2021 4:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Joining the scouts? You think a kid who lives in chaos and wants to belong yet doesn't have many options for healthy peer groups can join the scouts?

Or a kid who does have those options but doesn't feel like they do. They look up to the local hard boys and feel a sense of acceptance from them that they don't receive at home.

Or a kid who is too damned scared to walk away.

Sometimes it's hard to look outside our work or profession.

The vast majority do not live in chaos, do live in a home where they do not feel accepted, the vast majority of children and teens are not involved in drug dealing or criminal behavior they live normal unremarkable lives and that is often overlooked.

catastrophising teenagers and teenage life is not helpful.

13-05-2021 5:00pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Sometimes it's hard to look outside our work or profession.

The vast majority do not live in chaos, do live in a home where they do not feel accepted, the vast majority of children and teens are not involved in drug dealing or criminal behavior they live normal unremarkable lives and that is often overlooked.

catastrophising teenagers and teenage life is not a helpful.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence. It is possible to have an understanding and opinion completely separate from one's profession. I could be a tightrope walker or a neurosurgeon and have the same view.

I am drawing your attention to why it isn't always easy to choose different friends or engage with positive activities. Children in healthy families who are well adjusted are on paper better placed to make better choices. The thing is we don't actually know their inner struggles or the home behind closed doors.

There are still a multitude of factors at play that can lead a child down a path of criminality.
Life is not black and white, for most of us anyways.

Claw Hammer · 13-05-2021 5:12pm

seamus wrote: »

Rose-tinted glasses.

Bicycle theft was actually one of the most prolific crimes that Gardai dealt with in the early years of the Republic.

The whole notion that countries under conservative and more penal regimes have less crime, or had less crime in the past, is actually complete crap put forward by people who yearn for the "rare aul times".

Yes in the days of Artane, you could leave your front door unlocked. And thousands got burgled.

There were 850 break-ins in 1950. Hardly thousands. There were 1300 bicycle thefts that year, less than 1 per county per week. Locking up young thugs is the way to go. The abuse should have been stopped. Just because there was abuse in the pas doesn't meant the principle wasn't correct.

mohawk · 13-05-2021 5:35pm

Phoenix32 wrote: »

I don't think good parents can raise bad kids. But you can be a nice person and still not be a very good parent and it can cause issues later on. These things aren't black and white. I don't think a bad childhood excuses bad behaviour in adulthood but it certainly explains it and gives us a reason why the person turned out the way that they did. Not too many people with a normal upbringing go on to murder, just saying.

Your so right it isn’t a black and white issue. Many parents although nice people just can’t seem to say no to their child, don’t keep an eye on their online activities, give them everything they ask for, don’t set strict boundaries and don’t check out the friends they keep. You have to do the leg work when they are young so they can be more equipped as teenagers to make better choices. There is no perfect parent and even the best parent make mistakes but most people turn out relatively normalish.

I grew up with an abusive, alcoholic step-parent. So I actually tend to have very little sympathy for those that play the poor me I had a tough life card. There are thousands of us who grew up in absolute chaos without the state even noticing that there is abuse in the home. Maybe the state needs to do better helping families with a chaotic home life.

13-05-2021 5:41pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There were 850 break-ins in 1950. Hardly thousands. There were 1300 bicycle thefts that year, less than 1 per county per week. Locking up young thugs is the way to go. The abuse should have been stopped. Just because there was abuse in the pas doesn't meant the principle wasn't correct.

The principle wasn't correct.

You think locking children up in Industrial schools is the way to fix it? Children as young as 8 (the age my father was when he was sent to Artane)?

I suppose you're in favour of bringing back workhouses and the magdelene laundries, too.

Claw Hammer · 13-05-2021 5:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The principle wasn't correct.

You think locking children up in Industrial schools is the way to fix it? Children as young as 8 (the age my father was when he was sent to Artane)?

I suppose you're in favour of bringing back workhouses and the magdelene laundries, too.

Children with a criminal propensity should be taken out of circulation. Workhouses would be a good idea. It would solve homelessness.

13-05-2021 5:51pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There were 850 break-ins in 1950. Hardly thousands. There were 1300 bicycle thefts that year, less than 1 per county per week. Locking up young thugs is the way to go. The abuse should have been stopped. Just because there was abuse in the pas doesn't meant the principle wasn't correct.

I think you will find the recording of crimes was very very different in 1950.

13-05-2021 7:13pm

mohawk wrote: »

Your so right it isn’t a black and white issue. Many parents although nice people just can’t seem to say no to their child, don’t keep an eye on their online activities, give them everything they ask for, don’t set strict boundaries and don’t check out the friends they keep. You have to do the leg work when they are young so they can be more equipped as teenagers to make better choices. There is no perfect parent and even the best parent make mistakes but most people turn out relatively normalish.

I grew up with an abusive, alcoholic step-parent. So I actually tend to have very little sympathy for those that play the poor me I had a tough life card. There are thousands of us who grew up in absolute chaos without the state even noticing that there is abuse in the home. Maybe the state needs to do better helping families with a chaotic home life.

I sort of agree with you.

It's my belief that we are born with our own unique temperament. There is an interplay between that, the environment we grow up in, our caregivers and our experiences. It contributes to who we are as people.
It will also contribute to our resilience and ability to tolerate and withstand adverse situations.

Not every person who grows up in a household similar to you will be ok and not every person who speaks about having had a tough upbringing are playing the "poor me" card.

Parents are humans too. They make mistakes, there will be rupture but their must be repair.

Inconsistency, not always being emotionally available, expecting too much, unhealthy narratives around food and body image, not expressing feelings, etc. These are things that some parents engage in and they can leave their mark.

I always think it's important though for the adult to not get trapped in a blame game and to take full responsibility for their adult selves. While the parents were not always good enough they were most likely operating out of their own limited capacity.

The only exception for this is sustained abuse where you would want to be seriously impaired as an adult to think its ok. My point relates to the more "garden variety" parenting lacks.

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 9:16am

mariaalice wrote: »

You haven't mentioned your parents in all this.

Second, people choose who to hang around with why make that choice and not the other choice.

Well I had one good parent, and one not so good one. but neither of them had a choice in who I hung around with when I wasnt at home. They used to think I was an angel. They still do. They dont know about any of what I got up to when I was a teen. And I am 100% sure too that 99% of children who think they know where and what their teenagers are at are deluding themselves.

One neighbor was on to me and told my Dad. But my Dad believed me and never spoke to that neighbor again.

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 9:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

Joining the scouts? You think a kid who lives in chaos and wants to belong yet doesn't have many options for healthy peer groups can join the scouts?

Or a kid who does have those options but doesn't feel like they do. They look up to the local hard boys and feel a sense of acceptance from them that they don't receive at home.

Or a kid who is too damned scared to walk away.

I think some people just dont really know what goes on in the world today

14-05-2021 10:13am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Children with a criminal propensity should be taken out of circulation. Workhouses would be a good idea. It would solve homelessness.

Ah jesus. Workhouses would solve exactly nothing. They never did.

Prisons of all varieties are very inefficient solutions to crime, only really useful for temporarily taking someone out of circulation who is a danger to the public. They're too expensive and they don't work in the long term.

Opening workhouses for children would probably satisfy some weird, marginal desire for punishment but it only creates more problems. They would serve as academies of crime.

We don't have nearly enough social workers. It's a good social worker that some of these kids need – the "one good adult" theory of a responsible role model who can encourage the child, and bring them on.

More social workers, fewer workhouses.

whisky_galore · 14-05-2021 10:26am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There were 850 break-ins in 1950.

People had fcuk all worth stealing!

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 10:38am

whisky_galore wrote: »

People had fcuk all worth stealing!

Back in the 80s the Gardai came to our school for a talk and were giving out the crime stats for our estate during the lecture.
They said in the previous month there had been 5 burglaries in the estate and we should all keep an eye out and tell our parents to lock doors and windows.
All of us in the class lived in the estate.
The garda said put your hands up anyone whos house has been burgled in the last month. Nearly 20 in the class including the teacher put their hands up

We told him which family was doing the burglaries too. He wasnt interested in that though.

keano_afc · 14-05-2021 10:45am

Lack of attention and role models is the problem.

I worked with some kids from rough areas of Dublin a few years back. We took them away for a week and emphasised that for this week, they'd be the subject of our focus and our attention. We cooked for them, spent time with them and encouraged them by doing team based activities where they had to work together.

At the start of the week, they were hard work. So much in-fighting, and unwillingness to behave. By the end of the week, they were different kids, to the point where they were upset that they had to go back to their families. All they needed was someone to focus on them and give them attention. We could hardly believe the difference.

The problem is most of these kids are in families where they're just seen as an inconvenience. They're a product of their surroundings. I believe all kids are capable of behaving like decent individuals, but it takes work. Sadly, a lot of parents just cant be bothered.

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 10:49am

keano_afc wrote: »

Lack of attention and role models is the problem.

I worked with some kids from rough areas of Dublin a few years back. We took them away for a week and emphasised that for this week, they'd be the subject of our focus and our attention. We cooked for them, spent time with them and encouraged them by doing team based activities where they had to work together.

At the start of the week, they were hard work. So much in-fighting, and unwillingness to behave. By the end of the week, they were different kids, to the point where they were upset that they had to go back to their families. All they needed was someone to focus on them and give them attention. We could hardly believe the difference.

The problem is most of these kids are in families where they're just seen as an inconvenience. They're a product of their surroundings. I believe all kids are capable of behaving like decent individuals, but it takes work. Sadly, a lot of parents just cant be bothered.

Went on some of those trips myself when I was a teenager.
Any notions you get about being a good kid after them are quickly knocked out of you when you get back yo the mates at home.

Ya sap ya ...
Did you get soft while you were away with the priests ...
Look at him, one week away from us and he thinks he is better than us...
Prove you're still one of us by breaking into that garage. If you dont we will kick the living daylights out of you.
And so on.

keano_afc · 14-05-2021 10:51am

JimmyVik wrote: »

Went on some of those trips myself when I was a teenager.
Any notions you get about being a good kid after them are quickly knocked out of you when you get back yo the mates at home.

Ya sap ya ...
Did you get soft while you were away with the priests ...
Look at him, one week away from us and he thinks he is better than us...
Prove you're still one of us by breaking into that garage. If you dont we will kick the living daylights out of you.
And so on.

Absolutely. We'd meet up with them for a reunion a few weeks later and it was almost like nothing had happened. Back to their home routine, back to thinking they only way to get someone's attention was to fight them. It was hard to deal with.

jester77 · 14-05-2021 10:54am

My mom would always say "Show me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are". I think that quote holds some weight. Children may come from a nice family, but if they are hanging around with a bad a group of people then they can be easily influenced, regardless of their home situation.

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 10:58am

jester77 wrote: »

My mom would always say "Show me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are". I think that quote holds some weight. Children may come from a nice family, but if they are hanging around with a bad a group of people then they can be easily influenced, regardless of their home situation.

And all it takes is one charismatic scum bag that the parents dont even know exists.
They get their claws into one person and then its easy to pull in their friends too.
I always think now. The most dangerous years of any childs life (boys anyway) are 12 to 20.
If you can get them through that period, then the next few years they have a brain of their own.

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 11:01am

bubblypop wrote: »

I think you will find the recording of crimes was very very different in 1950.

Just because it was written with pen and ink in 1950 and is typed onto Pulse in 2021 is of no significance.

14-05-2021 11:41am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Just because it was written with pen and ink in 1950 and is typed onto Pulse in 2021 is of no significance.

Ah but you don't know that it was written down at all. Plenty of crimes didn't get reported because the local superintendent or sergeant in the station didn't want the high numbers.
Crimes were not classified as crimes at all, in a lot of cases.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2021 11:54am

mariaalice wrote: »

Sometimes it's hard to look outside our work or profession.

The vast majority do not live in chaos, do live in a home where they do not feel accepted, the vast majority of children and teens are not involved in drug dealing or criminal behavior they live normal unremarkable lives and that is often overlooked.

catastrophising teenagers and teenage life is not helpful.

it's society that they feel doesn't accept them. Straight from a boring unfulfillig education to mundade offers of social conformity like scouts. They get hooked in drug dealing and criminal behaviour as an act of rebellion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2021 11:57am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Just because it was written with pen and ink in 1950 and is typed onto Pulse in 2021 is of no significance.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Children with a criminal propensity should be taken out of circulation. Workhouses would be a good idea. It would solve homelessness.

Are you seriously telligng me you want to go back to the 1950s complete with "Christian" Brothers and Magdaleen laundries ?

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 12:53pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Ah but you don't know that it was written down at all. Plenty of crimes didn't get reported because the local superintendent or sergeant in the station didn't want the high numbers.
Crimes were not classified as crimes at all, in a lot of cases.

What is your source for that? You are making things up.

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 12:55pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you seriously telligng me you want to go back to the 1950s complete with "Christian" Brothers and Magdaleen laundries ?

There are hardly any Christian Brother left and I said nothing about laundries.
Children with a criminal propensity should be removed to institutions where they can be reformed. There should be protections against abuse in those institutions but they should be run on firm lines.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2021 1:01pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There are hardly any Christian Brother left and I said nothing about laundries.
Children with a criminal propensity should be removed to institutions where they can be reformed. There should be protections against abuse in those institutions but they should be run on firm lines.

Institutionalistion ofthe underaged is the biggest darkest stain on this country's history and there were protections against abuse back then, too. We're (hopefully) never going back down that road.

And that's before we deal with the issue of what the kids are like when they leave.

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 1:06pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Institutionalistion ofthe underaged is the biggest darkest stain on this country's history and there were protections against abuse back then, too. We're (hopefully) never going back down that road.

And that's before we deal with the issue of what the kids are like when they leave.

What protections were there against abuse back then? Was any Christian Brother in Artane ever charged with murder or manslaughter?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2021 1:13pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What protections were there against abuse back then? Was any Christian Brother in Artane ever charged with murder or manslaughter?

My point entirely. They were checked, they were inspected, but nothing ever happened. Abusers are very good at covering up abuse and hiding. The only way to avoid it is to not create the environment in the first place.

State sanctioned abuse/discipline/cheap child labour is never going to happen, no matter how safe you think it can be. End of discussion.

nialler1978 · 14-05-2021 1:14pm

hezarkani wrote: »

We've seen the stories in the media about teens assaulting people and most are saying it's bad parenting causing bad behavior.

What about good parents who still have kids that end up like ****s? Have you ever heard of a story like that?

Yep, guy I went to school with, brought up in the most privileged of areas and home. His parents were lovely and completely heartbroken by him, they were both quite successful in their line of work. He was a self styled scumbag and magically developed a thick northside dublin accent. 16/17 years old used do a lot of vandalism and assaulting people, all that craic. I never had much contact with him except for once outside a church where a guy from our school had died so there was a lot of the school there. I was talking to someone I knew in the car park and he knew him, he approached us made some insulting remarks about my appearance, spat on me and then threw a feint which he found hilarious, lad i was talking to laughing nervously, didn't really blame him. About 2 years later when I was in 1st year of college news got around he was found dead with a needle in his arm in the jacks of a pub in town. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 1:17pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point entirely. They were checked, they were inspected, but nothing ever happened. Abusers are very good at covering up abuse and hiding. The only way to avoid it is to not create the environment in the first place.

State sanctioned abuse/discipline/cheap child labour is never going to happen, no matter how safe you think it can be. End of discussion.

Do you think anyone would get away with beating a kid to death today? The abusers didn't cover it up. They just did it, quite openly and nothing was done about it.
Why should criminals be safe and decent people not be safe which is what you seem to want?

Effects · 14-05-2021 1:20pm

There was a lad who lived close to me, and I would have had a few dealings with him back in the day. We both grew up in a decent area, and his father was a Garda Sergeant. So you'd expect he'd be able to keep him on the straight and narrow. His father even had a 'word' with me, after I'd had a bit of a fight with his son.
He ended up becoming a serious drug dealer, and ended up being shot dead while his child was in bed upstairs.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/father-shot-dead-while-baby-lay-upstairs-in-cot-inquest-told-1.2585856

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-05-2021 1:34pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Do you think anyone would get away with beating a kid to death today? The abusers didn't cover it up. They just did it, quite openly and nothing was done about it.
Why should criminals be safe and decent people not be safe which is what you seem to want?

So you actually WANT to put them into environments where they're susceptible to hurt and abuse.

Defintieyl done here now.

14-05-2021 1:35pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The abusers didn't cover it up. They just did it, quite openly and nothing was done about it.

Nothing was covered up? So what do you call bodies in unmarked graves?

http://www.irishsalem.com/religious-congregations/christian-brothers/expupilsclaim-childrenkilled-14nov98.php

Its still being covered up.

So what you want, is what you refer to as "decent people" protected from 8/9 year olds by having them removed from their homes for "criminal propensity"?

I wouldn't call anyone who would want to see that happen a decent person.

JimmyVik · 14-05-2021 1:36pm

I remember being at a school reunion when I was in my 30s.
I was talking to the principle for ages at one point.
He said to me he could always pick the lads who were going to turn out to be scumbags.
And he said he was always right except for once.
I asked him what was that and he says. I though you were going to spend your life in jail.

Claw Hammer · 14-05-2021 3:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing was covered up? So what do you call bodies in unmarked graves?

http://www.irishsalem.com/religious-congregations/christian-brothers/expupilsclaim-childrenkilled-14nov98.php

Its still being covered up.

So what you want, is what you refer to as "decent people" protected from 8/9 year olds by having them removed from their homes for "criminal propensity"?

I wouldn't call anyone who would want to see that happen a decent person.

The Christian Brothers were getting headage payments. If boys were going missing, it was known about. Nobody in authority was too bothered about it.

mariaalice · 14-05-2021 9:06pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think some people just dont really know what goes on in the world today

I have first-hand experience of it, and teenagers do choose who to hang around with, by 15/ 16ish this person subtly dropped some of the friends and chose to make different friends. The whole story is too long to explain.

I know there are several factors involved but choosing who you want to hang around is a very big factor and it's not about being lead astray.

14-05-2021 9:10pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I have first-hand experience of it, and teenagers do choose who to hang around with, by 15/ 16ish this person subtly dropped some of the friends and chose to make different friends. The whole story is too long to explain.

I know there are several factors involved but choosing who you want to hang around is a very big factor and it's not about being lead astray.

You are forgetting some important words.
'In my experience'
'Can be'
'Possibly/not always'
'My experience does not mean it is the same way for all kids'

mariaalice · 14-05-2021 9:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You are forgetting some important words.
'In my experience'
'Can be'
'Possibly/not always'
'My experience does not mean it is the same way for all kids'

All right so it's only in one case that the teen chose who to hang around with, all the reset are passive have no agency, and were lured in by a pipe piper-type character.

14-05-2021 10:34pm

mariaalice wrote: »

All right so it's only in one case that the teen chose who to hang around with, all the reset are passive have no agency, and were lured in by a pipe piper-type character.

Some kids can make choices in their best interests. There are a myriad of reasons why they can do so.

Some kids can't make a choice in their best interests. There are a myriad of reasons why they can't do so.

Beatty69 · 15-05-2021 4:43pm

keano_afc wrote: »

Lack of attention and role models is the problem.

I worked with some kids from rough areas of Dublin a few years back. We took them away for a week and emphasised that for this week, they'd be the subject of our focus and our attention. We cooked for them, spent time with them and encouraged them by doing team based activities where they had to work together.

At the start of the week, they were hard work. So much in-fighting, and unwillingness to behave. By the end of the week, they were different kids, to the point where they were upset that they had to go back to their families. All they needed was someone to focus on them and give them attention. We could hardly believe the difference.

The problem is most of these kids are in families where they're just seen as an inconvenience. They're a product of their surroundings. I believe all kids are capable of behaving like decent individuals, but it takes work. Sadly, a lot of parents just cant be bothered.

It's quite easy to focus on kids when that's all you have to do. Parents nowadays usually both have to work full-time just to afford the mortgage/rent.

Of course kids benefit from 24/7 attention but in the real world that's not possible.

JimmyVik · 17-05-2021 1:07pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I have first-hand experience of it, and teenagers do choose who to hang around with, by 15/ 16ish this person subtly dropped some of the friends and chose to make different friends. The whole story is too long to explain.

I know there are several factors involved but choosing who you want to hang around is a very big factor and it's not about being lead astray.

Would you agree that there many more kids around than that one, and that some do choose wisely and some dont?

Bad kids from good parents

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