Bad kids from good parents

hezarkani

We've seen the stories in the media about teens assaulting people and most are saying it's bad parenting causing bad behavior.

What about good parents who still have kids that end up like ****s? Have you ever heard of a story like that?

accensi0n

Never.

EmmetSpiceland

This report says the school a kid goes to has more influence on a kid than where they’re from.

“Schools are more important than neighbourhoods in influencing adolescent behaviour, an Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) study has found.

It shows that, overall, most 17-year-olds have no behavioural difficulties and few consistently “act out” at home, in school or in the community.

Where there are issues such as antisocial or school-based misbehaviour, they are more common among young men.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teen-behaviour-more-influenced-by-schools-than-localities-study-finds-1.4563050?mode=amp

handlemaster

hezarkani wrote: »

We've seen the stories in the media about teens assaulting people and most are saying it's bad parenting causing bad behavior.

What about good parents who still have kids that end up like ****s? Have you ever heard of a story like that?

Tell me more about your experience of this ?

seamus

There are cases like that of course. There are people born with congenital neurological issues, or issues that are acquired during childhood. They've found a very strong correlation, for example, in people who've committed multiple murders and are prone to violent crime; they've often suffered some level of serious brain injury as a child.

But they're few and far between.

The kind of stuff we're seeing in Malahide, is several levels above "bad parenting", it's a complete lack of parenting at all, the kids have been lacking any form of role model or personal support since they could walk. As a result they end up latching onto eachother and developing a complete lack of empathy or consideration for the rest of society.

Fining or locking up "bad parents", as many often cite is the way forward, would have precisely fvck all effect. All you'd end up doing is turning a bad, but loving parent, into a completely absent one.

It's a social failure, and one that needs to be overhauled both by intervening at a much younger age and being more supportive rather than punitive of these kids when they first land in the criminal justice system.

Jequ0n

Perceptions of “Good” and “Bad” are subjective.
There is a reason for most actions even if it might seem bizarre to an outsider.

On first sight you’d think I’m the bad one in the family. If you were to take a second look you’d notice that I’m nothing like the rest of them. Perspective..

punisher5112

Some are just evil, a lot of its down to showing off or doing it with the gang etc....

Monkey see, monkey do ...

KungPao

Me. I’m bad to the bone.

Can’t think of anyone really, most fook ups had dodgy beginnings, some extreme examples would be your Bundy’s, your Ramirez’s, your Hitler’s etc. all had absent/useless/abusive fathers.

PalLimerick

Plenty of times but the Parents are in denial and claim their little Darlings wouldn't or couldn't be like that.

Take the students in Limerick Years back that was throwing a ball on to a main road to get a Jack Russell to follow it with the intention of getting the Dog knocked down and killed, which happened, some of those were under 18.

Take the Brian Murphy case, they were young and "well to do". I'd bet they weren't decent growing up.

I got working with some local kids some time back. I made a few posts about the "Jedi School" I setup teaching them to be actual Jedi where possible - and close substitutes where not possible.

The kids I was doing it with/for were in a really bad way. The kind who would physically accost and terrorise innocent little old grannies who were struggling to even carry their shopping home.

The "role model" and guidance effect of the Jedi school has turned them around. During this time I met their parents. Some more often than others.

And the parents for me were a mix. The worst set really seemed to not care one jot for the outcomes of their child. And all but said so. It was like the "teacher / parent" scene in the movie/book "Matilda". The only thing that seemed to annoy them more than the idea they should be caring for their own child - is the seeming personal slight they took that anyone else such as me, might do so in their stead.

Another set however were clearly just out of their depth. Not just in parenting but in their entire life. Struggling to make ends meet left them with little to no parenting time and bugger all ability to produce good food at home. So it was fast food - TV Dinners - and little to no parenting. And it just slowly went out of hand. They were the loveliest people I had met in quite awhile. They were just lost.

It seems to me that there are certain things that a child needs for a healthy and emotionally stable upbringing. And parents who are bad people and parents who are good people are equally capable of providing them - or failing to.

It reminds me of the "same sex parenting" debates. If you could call them debates given how little the anti side had to offer. In the end it seems that it does not matter who is doing the parenting - but what that parenting provides the child. Who the actual parents are is often incidental at best.

seamus

PalLimerick wrote: »

Take the Brian Murphy case, they were young and "well to do". I'd bet they weren't decent growing up.

Any young man can find themselves in a fight and unlucky enough that someone comes out of it very badly.

But it says a lot that only one young man's parents did the right thing and went to the Garda station. The other 3 went and got legal advice to keep their mouths shut and literally got away with murder.

That tells you everything you need to know about the parents of those 3 boys; wealthy or not, their parents are cvnts too; bad parents who raised cvnts.

Of course there are OP.
Huge amount of kids from 'good parents' do bad things.
But good people do bad things everywhere, so called 'bad people ' also do good things.

It's not always the parents fault.
One thing is true though, the 'better' the family background, the more likely the parents will try to get their child off, or pay someone off so there's no prosecution. Might use their sway with some of their golfing buddies etc etc

Jequ0n

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I got working with some local kids some time back. I made a few posts about the "Jedi School" I setup teaching them to be actual Jedi where possible - and close substitutes where not possible.

Hope it ended with a blood bath, Anakin

Jequ0n

Jequ0n wrote: »

Hope it ended with a blood bath, Anakin

Not yet. There is still time

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I have an uncle who is a conman and criminal. He's the reason why I realised the phrase 'blood is thicker than water' is bullshit. He's an awful, awful person and as far as I'm concerned, we're not related. He comes from a law-abiding family. All his siblings are productive members of society as were my grandparents. He had the same upbringing as his siblings so his behaviour can't be blamed on his childhood.

So yeah, some people are just bad to the bone and there's not much you can do about it.

Tombo2001

Meaningless.

What is a 'bad' kid.

What is a 'good' parent.

Nonsense. The world isnt black and white like this.

Tombo2001

Also - why is it that these provocative After Hours and Current / IMHO threads, these so-called debates, are so often started by someone who has single digit posts.

Give me a break......really boards, can you get on top of this.

begbysback

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

This report says the school a kid goes to has more influence on a kid than where they’re from.

“Schools are more important than neighbourhoods in influencing adolescent behaviour, an Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) study has found.

It shows that, overall, most 17-year-olds have no behavioural difficulties and few consistently “act out” at home, in school or in the community.

Where there are issues such as antisocial or school-based misbehaviour, they are more common among young men.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teen-behaviour-more-influenced-by-schools-than-localities-study-finds-1.4563050?mode=amp

This has always been the case but generally unaccepted, it’s mostly rejected because parents shudder to think that little Jimmy could do something horrific, and take misguided comfort in thinking that once they are in control with parenting then no other outside influences will have any impact.

Of course, why would you think otherwise?

They could have disorders that aren't always visible, could be extreme immaturity, poor choice of friends although I do believe everyone chooses who to surround themselves with.

24-hour news access, social media have given people some peculiar notions.

The vast majority of people every those with not great parents grow up perfectly normal they get a job go to college or want even, they don't engage in criminal behaviour, they dont have mental health issues or anxiety, they have friends, they live an ordinary unremarkable life but that is not newsworthy

begbysback

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Also - why is it that these provocative After Hours and Current / IMHO threads, these so-called debates, are so often started by someone who has single digit posts.

Give me a break......really boards, can you get on top of this.

Seems to have touched a nerve Tombo? Would you like to talk about it?

TomTomTim

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Meaningless.

What is a 'bad' kid.

What is a 'good' parent.

Nonsense. The world isnt black and white like this.

Yeah, it's completely possible to be a good person, but a bad parent. Bad parenting isn't necessarily the explicit things we think of like neglect or abuse. Simple using the wrong parental tactics can be enough to send a child down a bad road.

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Give me a break......really boards, can you get on top of this.

Get on top of it? I wonder with how much confidence any user can say that it is not them producing it? Many other social media platforms make their traffic and money from amplifying disparity of opinion. Can anyone point to any social media platform and confidently assume they are _not_ doing the same? I am certainly open minded on the question.

I tend not to care. I just drop into the threads on topics I feel I either care about - know something about - or both.

Tombo2001

begbysback wrote: »

Seems to have touched a nerve Tombo? Would you like to talk about it?

Yeah I would.

It just makes me wonder whats going on with some of these threads, if there is something bigger going on in the background.

Tombo2001

TomTomTim wrote: »

Yeah, it's completely possible to be a good person, but a bad parent. Bad parenting isn't necessarily the explicit things we think of like neglect or abuse. Simple using the wrong parental tactics can be enough to send a child down a bad road.

Always think its gas how many people think they are experts on parenting.....

Bit like driving: 90% of parents think they are better than the average parent.

Tombo2001

Deleted User wrote: »

Get on top of it? I wonder with how much confidence any user can say that it is not them producing it? Many other social media platforms make their traffic and money from amplifying disparity of opinion. Can anyone point to any social media platform and confidently assume they are _not_ doing the same? I am certainly open minded on the question.

I tend not to care. I just drop into the threads on topics I feel I either care about - know something about - or both.

Fair point.

begbysback

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yeah I would.

It just makes me wonder whats going on with some of these threads, if there is something bigger going on in the background.

What, like God is starting threads?

branie2

They're probably ashamed of them

Thelonious Monk

Honestly I think you've all lived sheltered lives the way you go on about bad parenting being the main cause of general scumbaggery. There's a culture of being a mad bastard tough kid in Dublin/Ireland, being fearless, starting fights etc. You can get these types coming from good families. Everyone also says to deduct their parents welfare, I know pretty much everyone works in the estate I live in but there are still teenagers hanging around getting up to no good.
My parents couldn't have been better and me and my brother still got up to all kinds of mischief, some kids just go too far.

branie2

branie2 wrote: »

They're probably ashamed of them

Some of the time what we would described to ourselves or to others as being ashamed of some other person - is actually us being ashamed of ourselves.

I wonder how many of those people would even be able to tell the difference.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Always think its gas how many people think they are experts on parenting.....

Bit like driving: 90% of parents think they are better than the average parent.

Not to mention the amount of people who suddenly somehow seem to know a lot about what type of parenting goes on behind entire townfuls of closed doors.

Motivator

hezarkani wrote: »

We've seen the stories in the media about teens assaulting people and most are saying it's bad parenting causing bad behavior.

What about good parents who still have kids that end up like ****s? Have you ever heard of a story like that?

Have seen plenty of cases locally, probably the one that sticks out is the son of a local family where the parents were both GPs, the daughter was a solicitor and the other son an accountant. The black sheep used to rob prescription drugs from the parents and just generally cause absolute mayhem around town. Robbing people and places, assaulting people etc. He got given about 50 slaps on the wrist before something was finally done and he spent a bit of time in prison. The parents are lovely and so are the other children in the family. This guy just had serious issues. The family more or less disowned him when he was 19 or 20. Dunno what he’s up to now, he hasn’t been around in a couple of years. He was given every opportunity by his parents - privately educated (before being thrown out), set up with good jobs locally but didn’t want to know about it.

Another family had a son up on a murder charge but somehow he was found not guilty despite bragging about what he was going to do to the guy that was murdered some weeks before it happened. This fellas dad in particular is one of the nicest men you could ever meet. He had a nervous breakdown after the murder trial and has never fully recovered.

eviltwin

I come from a family where one sibling ended up in prison and the other three turned out fine. We all had the same upbringing. My parents were good in the sense we had food, were disciplined harshly, good grades were non negotiable but there was abuse and I see that as the turning point in my siblings life. The rest of us also caused harmed but only to ourselves. So you just don’t know. There is a lot more to raising a good person than people on here would have you think.

BlaktainPicard

seamus wrote: »

There are cases like that of course. There are people born with congenital neurological issues, or issues that are acquired during childhood. They've found a very strong correlation, for example, in people who've committed multiple murders and are prone to violent crime; they've often suffered some level of serious brain injury as a child.

But they're few and far between.

The kind of stuff we're seeing in Malahide, is several levels above "bad parenting", it's a complete lack of parenting at all, the kids have been lacking any form of role model or personal support since they could walk. As a result they end up latching onto eachother and developing a complete lack of empathy or consideration for the rest of society.

Fining or locking up "bad parents", as many often cite is the way forward, would have precisely fvck all effect. All you'd end up doing is turning a bad, but loving parent, into a completely absent one.

It's a social failure, and one that needs to be overhauled both by intervening at a much younger age and being more supportive rather than punitive of these kids when they first land in the criminal justice system.

What happened in Malahide ?

Anyway , I would have agreed with the notion that good parents cant possibly produce bad kids, but i did go to school with a lad that was a right knacker, now his brothers and sisters were grand and subsequently i met his parents and they were lovely people, so i don't know, you have the occasional case I guess.

I have 2 boys that are hyper, and it's tough, I do worry how they will turn out.

knucklehead6

hezarkani wrote: »

What about good parents who still have kids that end up like ****s? Have you ever heard of a story like that?

I know Boy A’s father. Really decent bloke.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

BlaktainPicard wrote: »

What happened in Malahide ?

Anyway , I would have agreed with the notion that good parents cant possibly produce bad kids, but i did go to school with a lad that was a right knacker, now his brothers and sisters were grand and subsequently i met his parents and they were lovely people, so i don't know, you have the occasional case I guess.

I have 2 boys that are hyper, and it's tough, I do worry how they will turn out.

Therein lies the inconcistency: if one of them turns out bad and the other fine, should you be considered a bad parent or the "ocassional case"?

It's the "bad parents" excuse that's lame and the result of half-assed lazy thinking.

biko

Some kids just wants to see the world burn.

eviltwin

Even really terrible parenting can produce a decent person.

fryup

Don't know about the parents but the son they had turned out to be a right Ol'Bollix

Also thinking it is bad parenting by any adult who is a parent is a kind of, self-protecting charm, they can blame others and think their parenting is a shield that will protect their children.

Hangdogroad

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I know Boy A’s father. Really decent bloke.

Cant say the same for Boy Bs oul fella.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/bunch-of-scumbags-father-of-boy-b-loudly-condemns-verdict-1.3929674

Jequ0n

mariaalice wrote: »

Also thinking it is bad parenting by any adult who is a parent is a kind of, self-protecting charm, they can blame others and think their parenting is a shield that will protect their children.

Sorry but what does this even mean?

McGinniesta

A neighbour of our's son was recently convicted of murder.

Jequ0n

Jequ0n wrote: »

Sorry but what does this even mean?

Blaming others, it's the parent's fault is a way of saying it will never happen to them, it's often related to being a bit smug as well.

A difficult concept to explain often.

Jequ0n

mariaalice wrote: »

Blaming others, it's the parent's fault is a way of saying it will never happen to them, it's often related to being a bit smug as well.

A difficult concept to explain often.

Surely any parent can be accused of being at fault for their offspring’s misdemeanours?
I’m sure there are people here who have a more rounded view of cause and effect so I will reserve judgement. Because I’m just so nice

I have seen so many parents and siblings absolutely destroyed because of things one of the kids did.
It's not their fault, and they feel shame and guilt and it's terrible for them.

Claw Hammer

When Artane was open there was none of that kind of malarkey at the station going on. If parents couldn't mind their kids, the kids were taken to Artane. You could leave your bicycle unlocked in O Connell street and return for it and get it hours later.

My father was in Artane.

The reason he was sent there was not for any crime, but because his mother was widowed and the priest thought she had too many children. Not that she couldn't look after him.

We don't want another Artane.

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

My father was in Artane.

The reason he was sent there was not for any crime, but because his mother was widowed and the priest thought she had too many children. Not that she couldn't look after him.

We don't want another Artane.

There is no point in taking something away if nothing is put in its place.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is no point in taking something away if nothing is put in its place.

A place like Artane is not the answer.

JimmyVik

When I was a teenager I hung around with some bad people.
I did beat people up and commit some crimes with them. The more you get away with it the more normal you think it is.
If I had been caught it would have probably left me to go down that road for the rest of my life.
Fortunately I never got caught.
Then you come to a point where you eother realize its not cool, or you think its still cool. Thats your turning point for where you go as an adult.
Eventually in my 20s I grew out of such behavior and stopped hanging around with people who were toxic and started hanging around with good people. I havent been in a jot of trouble since and have been a good upstanding member of society.
So what led me there? Simple. They people who I hung out with in my formative years were the people I learned to behave from.
When I was a teenager and was getting kudos for hanging out with the cool guys, I followed them. So happened where I grew up the cool guys were also bad guys and from bad families.
So years later, looking back I can see the people who didnt hang with us, or who even broke off from that crowd before I did, have all done really well for themselves.
Those who stayed in that mode are all either dead, wasters, drug addicts or criminals now.

Watch who your kids are hanging around with when you are not there when they are teenagers. If you let them in, thats who will shape your kids, not you.

PS. I have one friend now who was bullied in school. He has sent his two boys to train to fight from a young age so they could fight back.
Now, both of them at 16 and 17, it turns out are the school bullies now. Im told by someone I know close to the situation, that those twos training has made everyone afraid of them and they now realize it and are taking advantage of it and are running their own little clique of pr1cks. This person thinks these two lads are the next scumbag heavies of the area.
So they were taught to be tough, with good intesions, and it backfired.

Claw Hammer

Deleted User wrote: »

A place like Artane is not the answer.

It was better than nothing1