The way forward for LC2021

Teach30 · 09-05-2021 11:49am

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Is it a very niche subject you are teaching? Normally you'd get a few people in your subject association with experience correcting. I'd also recommend correcting one year for your own sake, it will give you a much better grounding.

I’ve only had juniors up to recently so LC correcting wasn’t on my radar. I do know that applying to correct my subject you have to start with Junior cert and work up and don’t get leaving for a few years so not sure if that appeals to me currently.

I’ve found that for a 3rd subject I got a class of recently no one wants to help you figure out the marking scheme. If you look up the junior cert religion papers it gives very little for inexperienced teachers to go on. I was giving the class I inherited last November questions from the papers and had no idea if I was going in right direction when correcting and marking them. I posted on the subject assoc notice board online if anyone could give some direction and no one answered.
Thankfully they’re not sitting exam this year now!

Bobtheman · 10-05-2021 10:24am

I'm just a wee bit anxious about the whole thing.
JC and LC. Guess work.

Leftwaffe · 10-05-2021 10:53am

Does anyone know when teachers will get the levels from the portal?

Choochtown · 10-05-2021 11:28am

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

Bobtheman · 10-05-2021 3:37pm

Choochtown wrote: »

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

Can you elaborate? I presume the grades we give are changeable by the Department anyway? Am I wrong?
You'd be a fool though to believe anything they say but what is their current version of the truth?!

TheValeyard · 10-05-2021 4:14pm

Choochtown wrote: »

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

That wont be allowed.

But.... If a student only takes the grade and not sit the exam, they are more likely to be downgraded.

Bobtheman · 10-05-2021 7:52pm

So will our accredited grades be touched?

alroley · 10-05-2021 10:09pm

Choochtown wrote: »

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

No way that will happen.

feedthegoat · 10-05-2021 10:34pm

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Does anyone know when teachers will get the levels from the portal?

Levels arrived in schools today

rainbowtrout · 10-05-2021 11:30pm

Choochtown wrote: »

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

Oh FFS.

Random sample · 11-05-2021 8:11am

Bobtheman wrote: »

So will our accredited grades be touched?

Yes, in relation to the curve and the national average. Not in relation to the written exam results of a student.

Treppen · 11-05-2021 11:37pm

Random sample wrote: »

Yes, in relation to the curve and the national average. Not in relation to the written exam results of a student.

Do you know the timeline as to when the adjustment of accredited grades by the SEC will finish?

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:30am

History Queen wrote: »

Has anyone heard back about correcting? I applied this year after a break of 4 years but I didn't hear back. Can I assume at this stage that I won't? And yes I know I can contact the SEC directly to enquire, I just can't remember when you usually get confirmation.

I got mine last early last week, I think. Possibly the week before. I seem to be in a minority here though.

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:31am

Bobtheman wrote: »

I stayed away from this thread as I still find the whole thing farcical. Accredited grades. I have never corrected LC exams. But yet I'm to come up with a grade for a new exam format?
I also assume a bell curve will operate?.
So if I think Johnny average will get between. 60 - 70 in the new exam - do I inflate to guard against their possible deflation?
Kids can surprise you on the day. Plus the lowering of standards can surprise you on the day.

Do whatever you feel you can live with. This process is nonsense and shouldn't be respected. Personally, I "insulated" against my students being brought down last year, and I almost certainly will again.

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:38am

Teach30 wrote: »

I have never marked LC and do my best to grade accurately however I will say that despite following a pre- paper marking scheme for one assessment I was still unsure if students were giving enough information for answers as the scheme only give bullet points and key words they should use. I definitely found myself giving students marks despite being unsure if they would get them, I couldn’t be listening to them complain.
I’m not the only one doing this!

Heard also of colleagues being asked to give a grade for work done on a project submitted in 5th year and they have no record of what students would have got as they are sent off to be corrected, so giving them all top marks for it. Madness.

This is why this whole process is farcical. You're far from the minority. Most teachers have never marked a state exam, or haven't done so in years. Most of those in the first group assume they know how to do it, because everyone assumes they know how to do it, until they find out otherwise.

Anyone who marks regularly will tell you that there are those who are good at it, those who are not, and those in between. In spite of this fact (and it is a fact), everyone's opinion on their students' marks is valued equally. Of course, it has to be that way, because there's no way to tell who's doing it properly and who's not, but we saw from the massive grade inflation last year that most are probably not.

My advice to you is don't worry about it. Do it to the best of your ability, which probably means that you're not going to do it that well. At least you know that. Most people who aren't doing it that well assume they're doing a great job.

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:41am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I'm primary but I think you need to be more professional in your approach. Give them the grade that they deserve, not one to give you an easy live and appease students and parents.

They don't know what the grade they deserve is. None of us do. Even most experienced examiners wouldn't be able accurately decide if a student would get 78 or 80, for example. They'd have a fair idea of the grade, sure, but even then, you're talking about "she'd probably get a H2 or a H3", not "she'd definitely get 79%."

Leftwaffe · 12-05-2021 6:41am

At risk of being annoying but interviewers and the aide haven’t been paid yet for the orals in our school. Has there been definitive payment documents released for this?

I called and was told last Tuesday that they’d be out by Wednesday or Thursday

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:43am

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I'd also recommend correcting one year for your own sake, it will give you a much better grounding.

Absolutely this.
You don't know what it's like if you haven't done it, contrary to what most people seem to think.

RealJohn · 12-05-2021 6:45am

Choochtown wrote: »

... and remember if you guess a student a H2 and they sit the exam and get a H6 the Department will not use that H6 to mark down your "predicted" grade ...

... yeah sure!

A lot of people scoffing at this, but it would be incredibly naive to think it won't be a factor at all. You would hope it will. It would make the whole think more accurate overall. It might still penalise individual students, of course, but this would be a positive thing, not unlike using schools' past performance (which should also be happening).

DubLad69 · 12-05-2021 7:08am

Leftwaffe wrote: »

At risk of being annoying but interviewers and the aide haven’t been paid yet for the orals in our school. Has there been definitive payment documents released for this?

I called and was told last Tuesday that they’d be out by Wednesday or Thursday

Yes, payment forms have been released for both and are on the schools section of examinations.ie

I would suspect that most schools will make the payments for both after all of the exams are completed.

Leftwaffe · 12-05-2021 8:37am

DubLad69 wrote: »

Yes, payment forms have been released for both and are on the schools section of examinations.ie

I would suspect that most schools will make the payments for both after all of the exams are completed.

Much appreciated.

Random sample · 12-05-2021 10:53am

Treppen wrote: »

Do you know the timeline as to when the adjustment of accredited grades by the SEC will finish?

No. I don’t even know if they have procured an algorithm yet.

Random sample · 12-05-2021 10:54am

Leftwaffe wrote: »

At risk of being annoying but interviewers and the aide haven’t been paid yet for the orals in our school. Has there been definitive payment documents released for this?

I called and was told last Tuesday that they’d be out by Wednesday or Thursday

Interviewers have all been paid in my school. No idea about the aide, but she’s doing lcvp too, so I don’t know if she’ll get all in one go.

pandoraj09 · 12-05-2021 7:11pm

Someone posted on the Voice for teachers page that the DES replied to her email re payment for interviewers and aides and stated that no payments would be made until the LC was over. I do know of some schools that have paid teachers already though. Its a joke. I did the Irish interviews on March 27th and won't be paid until July or more likely August.

Leftwaffe · 12-05-2021 7:35pm

Random sample wrote: »

Interviewers have all been paid in my school. No idea about the aide, but she’s doing lcvp too, so I don’t know if she’ll get all in one go.

Your school has obviously paid out their own pocket then? It’s a bit all over the place re pay. A lot of interviewers not happy as far as I can see.

As an aside, how can I determine how many centres I will need for the leaving cert exams? Or will the department provide guidance on that? I’ve not done exam secretary before. All help appreciated.

Bobtheman · 15-05-2021 8:05am

If I give a student 80 and he gets 64 in the exam - will the department then drag my accredited grade down??
At what stage is the accredited grade finalised??

RealJohn · 15-05-2021 8:44am

Bobtheman wrote: »

If I give a student 80 and he gets 64 in the exam - will the department then drag my accredited grade down??
At what stage is the accredited grade finalised??

You would hope they wouldn’t do it on student by student basis but it would make sense to look at students’ exam performance versus their teachers’ invented grades and adjust the overall invented grades accordingly.

If you’ve only got one student wrong, that student might have had a bad day at the exam, and shouldn’t affect how your grading is viewed, overall. If all of your students go down 10-15% in the exam (or do so on average), then your invented grades should be adjusted accordingly, but for that, they might also have to look at everyone else’s invented grades too, because if that was a national trend, you could say that it was some sort of Covid related effect, and that the invented grades might be an accurate reflection of what they would have got, but for the disruption to their education for the last year.

Who knows though? They’ll be adjusted to fit what they want them to look like anyway.

Bobtheman · 15-05-2021 2:15pm

RealJohn wrote: »

You would hope they wouldn’t do it on student by student basis but it would make sense to look at students’ exam performance versus their teachers’ invented grades and adjust the overall invented grades accordingly.

If you’ve only got one student wrong, that student might have had a bad day at the exam, and shouldn’t affect how your grading is viewed, overall. If all of your students go down 10-15% in the exam (or do so on average), then your invented grades should be adjusted accordingly, but for that, they might also have to look at everyone else’s invented grades too, because if that was a national trend, you could say that it was some sort of Covid related effect, and that the invented grades might be an accurate reflection of what they would have got, but for the disruption to their education for the last year.

Who knows though? They’ll be adjusted to fit what they want them to look like anyway.

Thanks for that and very insightful. Lots of rationality in it but I'm not sure if rationality is part of the process.
They should have had the accredited grades as a back up no more. They just gave into the media.
We have **** child mental health services and practically any other child service you name but the LC is somehow put on a higher pedestal because it strikes at the heart of the middle classes

Treppen · 15-05-2021 3:07pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

If I give a student 80 and he gets 64 in the exam - will the department then drag my accredited grade down??
At what stage is the accredited grade finalised??

We asked the Union if they would use one grade to moderate another, they said they were given assurances by the department that "there will be no relationship between Leaving Certificate performance and accredited grades in terms of the results achieved in one or other."

For some reason I still wouldn't trust the department.

Leftwaffe · 15-05-2021 9:47pm

So, accredited grades have to be submitted by the teachers by 31st of May and then inputted into the system by June 3rd? Is that correct?

Random sample · 15-05-2021 9:53pm

Leftwaffe wrote: »

So, accredited grades have to be submitted by the teachers by 31st of May and then inputted into the system by June 3rd? Is that correct?

Does that mean we have to have the alignment meetings on the Monday?

I don’t understand why we have to rush all other marking and reports for the 28th if we have to have accredited grades done so early in the last week.

rainbowtrout · 15-05-2021 11:21pm

Random sample wrote: »

Does that mean we have to have the alignment meetings on the Monday?

I don’t understand why we have to rush all other marking and reports for the 28th if we have to have accredited grades done so early in the last week.

But yesterday was the last day assessments could be given to students to count for their accredited grade. You have two weeks to finalise the grades.

Leftwaffe · 15-05-2021 11:59pm

Random sample wrote: »

Does that mean we have to have the alignment meetings on the Monday?

I don’t understand why we have to rush all other marking and reports for the 28th if we have to have accredited grades done so early in the last week.

I take it as the subject alignment process will be all but done by the 28th. Perhaps a meeting early the following week for departments to tie up any loose ends/box ticking exercise and then away ya go for the summer. Aide submits them by Thursday the 3rd then.

Random sample · 16-05-2021 8:25am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But yesterday was the last day assessments could be given to students to count for their accredited grade. You have two weeks to finalise the grades.

But I have 6 other sets of tests, and 8 other sets of reports that have to be in by the 28th when my last exam is on the 26th.

rainbowtrout · 16-05-2021 9:46am

Random sample wrote: »

But I have 6 other sets of tests, and 8 other sets of reports that have to be in by the 28th when my last exam is on the 26th.

Surely it’s up to the staff to say to the principal to push out the submission date for grades for house exams.

Random sample · 16-05-2021 10:02am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Surely it’s up to the staff to say to the principal to push out the submission date for grades for house exams.

It was in the accredited grades document that they all have to be done by the 28th so that we could focus on the accredited grades in the last week.

Leftwaffe · 16-05-2021 11:24pm

Random sample wrote: »

It was in the accredited grades document that they all have to be done by the 28th so that we could focus on the accredited grades in the last week.

The majority of teachers where I am are taking it that they won’t be in for the last week. The accredited grades process really shouldn’t take that long for teachers and the Subject alignment meeting could be held outside tuition time. They hardly expect people to come the first week of June?

rainbowtrout · 16-05-2021 11:51pm

Leftwaffe wrote: »

The majority of teachers where I am are taking it that they won’t be in for the last week. The accredited grades process really shouldn’t take that long for teachers and the Subject alignment meeting could be held outside tuition time. They hardly expect people to come the first week of June?

Same as. The monthly assessments are done. It shouldn't take two weeks to decide on a grade for a student.

Bobtheman · 17-05-2021 12:09pm

Anybody heard back on their Lc supervision yet? I applied for the extra cohort.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2021 3:49pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Anybody heard back on their Lc supervision yet? I applied for the extra cohort.

Just that I got it, but no other detail.

Bobtheman · 17-05-2021 5:58pm

I was on late list.

rainbowtrout · 17-05-2021 8:28pm

Just had a look at the email I got last week and the cut off for acceptance was last Thursday so I'd imagine anyone who is on the late list would get an offer this week.

Alex86Eire · 17-05-2021 9:17pm

I was on the late list and got an appointment email last Wednesday.

Choochtown · 18-05-2021 11:16am

Bobtheman wrote: »

If I give a student 80 and he gets 64 in the exam - will the department then drag my accredited grade down??
At what stage is the accredited grade finalised??

Of course not. The Department never ever go back on their word and when we were assured by them in an official statement last year that students will not get access to their class order of rankings they stuck firmly to their word. Also the grade process will be totally transparent (just like last year) as which result has been used (the exam grade or assessed grade) will be clearly indicated and ...

... er actually maybe they will

Leftwaffe · 18-05-2021 1:06pm

Anyone else struggling to find teacher to sit on the panel in order to judge the grades given by tutors for out of school subjects?

We cant find a registered Hungarian teacher to sit on the panel and verify the grades given by the students unregistered tutor. The SEC are telling me they must be registered.

rainbowtrout · 18-05-2021 1:43pm

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Anyone else struggling to find teacher to sit on the panel in order to judge the grades given by tutors for out of school subjects?

We cant find a registered Hungarian teacher to sit on the panel and verify the grades given by the students unregistered tutor. The SEC are telling me they must be registered.

Ah here. Given that Hungarian is a non curricular language, how likely is it that there are any Hungarian teachers registered with the teaching council.

I’d suggest ringing the Hungarian embassy in Dublin (assuming there is one) and seeing if they can put you in touch with someone

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 1:45pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ah here. Given that Hungarian is a non curricular language, how likely is it that there are any Hungarian teachers registered with the teaching council.

I’d suggest ringing the Hungarian embassy in Dublin (assuming there is one) and seeing if they can put you in touch with someone

Didn't know you can get graded on non cirricula subjects...

So you can just make up your own?

RealJohn · 18-05-2021 2:29pm

There was an assessment for non-curricular languages last Saturday for accredited grades. I know someone marking one of them (but not Hungarian).
My friend knows the person who’s marking the Hungarian though (as they know several of the people involved). There was only one of the non-curricular languages that had no applicants, apparently, and it wasn’t Hungarian.

Why those Hungarian students didn’t do that assessment, I don’t know, but it sounds like they should have.

FileNotFound · 18-05-2021 3:39pm

RealJohn wrote: »

There was an assessment for non-curricular languages last Saturday for accredited grades. I know someone marking one of them (but not Hungarian).
My friend knows the person who’s marking the Hungarian though (as they know several of the people involved). There was only one of the non-curricular languages that had no applicants, apparently, and it wasn’t Hungarian.

Why those Hungarian students didn’t do that assessment, I don’t know, but it sounds like they should have.

This sounds as dodge as can be. Easy A I suppose.

solerina · 18-05-2021 5:51pm

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Anyone else struggling to find teacher to sit on the panel in order to judge the grades given by tutors for out of school subjects?

We cant find a registered Hungarian teacher to sit on the panel and verify the grades given by the students unregistered tutor. The SEC are telling me they must be registered.

I would like to know how these external grades are being standardised. We have a student doing a subject outside school who struggles to get 50% in OL subjects in school yet has been awarded a H1 for a subject he studies outside school

The way forward for LC2021

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