Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

ELM327 · 20-07-2020 5:22pm

chicorytip wrote: »

The racing is still interesting and the drivers are highly talented but most of them have boring personalities. The team managers, are boring and the sports administrators are boring. In order to save the sport major manufacturers like BMW, GM, Toyota and Ford and maybe the likes of Lamborghini would enter as full works outfits and customer teams would be excluded. This is the only measure that will create a more competitive championship rather than the two horse race it has become in recent seasons.

Customer teams excluded?
Like... pretty much.. all of the non -ferrari teams that won WDCs have been customer teams. Redbull, Mclaren, Williams, Benetton to name just 4 from the last 25 years.

Have you ever watched F1?

chicorytip · 20-07-2020 5:34pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Customer teams excluded?
Like... pretty much.. all of the non -ferrari teams that won WDCs have been customer teams. Redbull, Mclaren, Williams, Benetton to name just 4 from the last 25 years.

Have you ever watched F1?

All those you mention have or had massive financial resources of their own to deploy in the areas of design and driver recruitment and to buy the best engines. In the current context Sauber, Haas, Alpha Tauri and, regrettably, Williams are just customers, nurseries and minnows and should no longer be on the grid.

Frank Bullitt · 20-07-2020 5:36pm

eviltimeban wrote: »

Of course I watched them. I've been watching F1 since about 1988.

What I'm saying is, it always seemed like someone was scampering off into the distance. I'm talking about those races where, say, Vettel would be on pole about a second faster than P2, lead into the first corner, and then never be seen again til the chequered flag.

Replace "Vettel" with "Hamilton" and you have the last handful of years.

Santan · 20-07-2020 5:46pm

Open to correction but was it only 2013 that Vettel really had the car that gave him this reputation of pole, and 1st corner gone into the distance, he destroyed the grid including webber the latter part of the year, but I don't remember him doing this in the same way the previous years.

Frank Bullitt · 20-07-2020 5:56pm

Santan wrote: »

Open to correction but was it only 2013 that Vettel really had the car that gave him this reputation of pole, and 1st corner gone into the distance, he destroyed the grid including webber the latter part of the year, but I don't remember him doing this in the same way the previous years.

2011 stands out to me, he was ran close in some races but the RB was solid, it was also the first year of the Pirelli and DRS...so actually, maybe you are right, once they ironed out a few things in 2013 they were unmatched.

namloc1980 · 20-07-2020 5:56pm

How things have come around.... https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/24428367

Cork Trucker · 20-07-2020 6:14pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

How things have come around.... https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/24428367

Vettel would be destroyed by the the British media if he said that, no one is allowed slate darling Lewis :rolleyes:

Killinator · 20-07-2020 6:25pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Vettel would be destroyed by the the British media if he said that, no one is allowed slate darling Lewis :rolleyes:

That's a bit much, the vast majority of the article is Lewis hugely praising how well Vettel was doing at the time.
And he was right, people at the time were complaining about how dominant Vettel and the RB were to the point as highlighted in the article Seb was getting booed on the podium!

And it's a BBC article. If Vettel went to the German media with the same thing he probably wouldn't be torn apart for saying it.

Frank Bullitt · 20-07-2020 6:25pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Vettel would be destroyed by the the British media if he said that, no one is allowed slate darling Lewis :rolleyes:

I always remind myself that the point of view I mostly get on F1 comes from the Brit media...no bias in there at all.

Top Dog · 20-07-2020 9:19pm

Anjobe wrote: »

I don't know whether there was an interview with Toto or whether one of the Sky guys was just talking about a conversation with him, but apparently he said that Ferrari's engine developments over the last couple of years had effectively forced Mercedes into additional development of their own to keep up. When the FIA put a stop to whatever Ferrari were doing this left Mercedes well out in front again. Ferrari somehow managing to shoot themselves in both feet!

Most of thre relevant stuff Toto said is covered in this video. I particularly like him straight up calling bull on Ferrari claims.

Frank Bullitt · 21-07-2020 12:13am

“That’s what we’re fighting for. We’re fighting for change in organizations. I think Mercedes… I honestly continue to be really proud of my team. And I know you could say that I’m biased, but I’m not. My team has actually held themselves accountable and continue to really try and follow through in understanding it. My team took the knee at the last race, and that takes a lot of guts and open-heartedness to fight with that."

Wait until Hamilton finds out about LGBT rights in Malaysia. (Petronas, title sponsor of Merc, are government owned).

wally1990 · 21-07-2020 12:17am

Gintonious wrote: »

Wait until Hamilton finds out about LGBT rights in Malaysia. (Petronas, title sponsor of Merc, are government owned).

Just googled it there, how the hell did you know their stance

(visited there/work there) ha, never knew

Frank Bullitt · 21-07-2020 12:21am

wally1990 wrote: »

Just googled it there, how the hell did you know their stance (visited there/work there) ha, never knew

Read it on Vice news recently.

Religious Affairs Minister Zulkifli Mohamad says he has given ‘full license’ to Islamic authorities to bring transgender people ‘back to the right path’

Fairly scary stuff. There was also some tuff about 10 years ago about Sudan and war crimes. As a company, Petrobas has a bit of a sketchy past (most oil companies do though).

El_Duderino 09 · 21-07-2020 12:37am

ELM327 wrote: »

Customer teams excluded?
Like... pretty much.. all of the non -ferrari teams that won WDCs have been customer teams. Redbull, Mclaren, Williams, Benetton to name just 4 from the last 25 years.

Have you ever watched F1?

Red bull and Mclaren were both works teams. The had a works relationship with the engine supplier. I don't know about Williams and Benetton.

Mercedes had bought a large hunk of shared in the McLaren team and they had to divest when they bought another team.

H3llR4iser · 21-07-2020 4:00pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Red bull and Mclaren were both works teams. The had a works relationship with the engine supplier. I don't know about Williams and Benetton.

Mercedes had bought a large hunk of shared in the McLaren team and they had to divest when they bought another team.

I can confirm both Williams and Benetton had "works" arrangements during their success years. In 1995, the unique situation was that BOTH Williams and Benetton had a works deal with Renault (which didn't go down too well with Williams, at the time).

Cork Trucker · 21-07-2020 4:07pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I can confirm both Williams and Benetton had "works" arrangements during their success years. In 1995, the unique situation was that BOTH Williams and Benetton had a works deal with Renault (which didn't go down too well with Williams, at the time).

Benetton got the Renault deal by nicking it from Ligier whom were then owned by Flavio Briatore and Tom Walkinshaw before he left to take over footwork.

Didn’t Briatore also have a stake in Minardi around then?

recyclebin · 22-07-2020 2:01pm

Anyone think Mercedes engine is doing something a bit suspect? There is quite a lot of smoke under acceleration. Maybe Toto has been crying so much about Ferrari as a distraction....

vectra · 22-07-2020 2:04pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Anyone think Mercedes engine is doing something a bit suspect? There is quite a lot of smoke under acceleration. Maybe Toto has been crying so much about Ferrari as a distraction....

As the old saying goes,
"There is never smoke without fire" :pac:

pjohnson · 22-07-2020 2:05pm

Red Bull/AlphaTauri wont have a reserve driver as it stands for the British races. Both Buemi and Camara will be in Germany for the Formula E finale.

Neither Daruvala or Tsunoda have the criteria for a superlicence.

TCP/IP · 22-07-2020 2:35pm

recyclebin wrote: »

Anyone think Mercedes engine is doing something a bit suspect? There is quite a lot of smoke under acceleration. Maybe Toto has been crying so much about Ferrari as a distraction....

As I said after the last GP I really feel this era of dominance by Merc will have a cloud over it in the future when the truth eventually comes out about its ridiculous performance advantage. This years car in particular stinks of an illegal car but of course it's not until this is proven.

recyclebin · 22-07-2020 2:54pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

As I said after the last GP I really feel this era of dominance by Merc will have a cloud over it in the future when the truth eventually comes out about its ridiculous performance advantage. This years car in particular stinks of an illegal car but of course it's not until this is proven.

The way the FIA hushed up the Ferrari deal makes me think we may never see what is going on behind the scenes. F1 needs Mercedes to sign up the new deal, so won't risk digging too hard in case they find something.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-07-2020 2:55pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

As I said after the last GP I really feel this era of dominance by Merc will have a cloud over it in the future when the truth eventually comes out about its ridiculous performance advantage. This years car in particular stinks of an illegal car but of course it's not until this is proven.

DAS is already an area like that. And the likely collaboration with RP is another such area.

Last year's ferrari engine was clearly not compliant with the rules. Does that really cast a cloud over all their poll positions and wins? I don't think people look at it that way in reality.

TCP/IP · 22-07-2020 3:02pm

recyclebin wrote: »

The way the FIA hushed up the Ferrari deal makes me think we may never see what is going on behind the scenes. F1 needs Mercedes to sign up the new deal, so won't risk digging too hard in case they find something.

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

mickdw · 22-07-2020 3:11pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

What changes were brought in a couple of years back re burning oil - didnt they limit the amount of oil loss over a race to quite a tight amount?
The way mercedes are now smoking, you would have to query those limits.

TCP/IP · 22-07-2020 3:25pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

DAS us already an area like that. And the likely collaboration with RP is another such area.

Last year's ferrari engine was clearly not compliant with the rules. Does that really cast a cloud over all their poll positions and wins? I don't think people look at it that way in reality.

I agree Ferrari's engine last year in certain parts of the season found a loophole outside the intended regulations and that was closed you could see it when they left the garage in a cloud of smoke, what's interesting the 2020 Merc engine has the same smoke at certain points and is certainly doing something similar but perhaps in a way that is not proven yet outside the rules yet.

Sure its plain for all to see that Merc this year with DAS and their new engine is just so far ahead its not even funny anymore.

mickdw · 22-07-2020 3:30pm

Ya it looks like mercedes knew exactly what ferrari were doing last year and surely had their own version in design to match them - Toto did say that ferrari performance last year forced them to push themselves to match them.

Given the cover up agreement between ferrari and FIA, Mercedes might have just decided to run it and seek similar terms if found out.

namloc1980 · 22-07-2020 4:06pm

Shake up at Ferrari

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-ferrari-announce-technical-team-shake-up-after-poor-start-to-2020.4KXJeL8LAPO4LmEiLwgt8K.html

vectra · 22-07-2020 4:14pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

DAS is already an area like that. And the likely collaboration with RP is another such area.

Last year's ferrari engine was clearly not compliant with the rules. Does that really cast a cloud over all their poll positions and wins? I don't think people look at it that way in reality.

Yes according to Red Bull.

Parsnips · 22-07-2020 4:21pm

Ive been a formula 1 fan for years.. going back to Berger, Hill, Coulthard, Hakkinen etc.
My God... New owners need to do something drastic. its getting worse by theyear. yes we get a few great races every now and again but its really gone to the dogs. As most F1 fans feel...Its not just about the racing but the whole soap opera that goes on in the background and I also love that but there is no doubt about it.. the spectacle is dying a death. I cringe when commentators scream about the battle for 9th & 10th spot. says eveything really.

Im also glad to see Ocon back. Feel he was shafted last year. not a fan of Perez.

Schorpio · 22-07-2020 4:40pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

I take your point, and a big part of me would rather they just stepped away too, but I don't think they should be made to leave the sport, just because they were too good at it. I know they have a big budget, but Ferrari have an equally big budget, and look at the mess they are in.

barryribs · 22-07-2020 4:44pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

I don't understand this at all, Mercedes have done the best job by miles, but they should step away? Ferrari couldn't beat them in what is generally considered an illegal car, and when they could match them end up imploding or shooting themselves in the foot.

quokula · 22-07-2020 5:01pm

Schorpio wrote: »

I take your point, and a big part of me would rather they just stepped away too, but I don't think they should be made to leave the sport, just because they were too good at it. I know they have a big budget, but Ferrari have an equally big budget, and look at the mess they are in.

Ferrari didn't have the advantage of pushing through rules for an engine formula they were developing a year before everyone else though.

The issue isn't just budgets, it's the fact that each team has a pre-existing car from the year before to build upon, with regulations absolutely favouring evolution over revolution and not giving any opportunity for teams that are already behind to catch up, through a combination of restrictive unchanging regulations, reliability being at a premium, limited testing, clamping down on innovations and the application of restrictive token systems at key times.

Since 2014 we have seen zero movement on Ferrari or Red Bull catching Mercedes, and we've seen zero movement on anyone else catching Ferrari or Red Bull, up until Force India's Mercedes copy this year. There has never been a period in F1 so devoid of opportunity for so long.

namloc1980 · 22-07-2020 5:13pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

You make a very good point but at this stage, I would rather see Merc step away as it's plainly obvious they are too big a machine to compete against and how many championships wins will be too much and destroy the sport we love so much.

What happens if they cream the competition in the 2022 season with the new rule changes it will be a disaster for the sport.

The fear is that they will nail the 2022 regulations also and if they do it could well be the final nail in the coffin of the sport.

Frank Bullitt · 22-07-2020 5:37pm

If Merc are up to something suspect, I am surprised that other teams haven't said anything about it yet. There is a bit of smoke on acceleration (just like the Ferrari unit when it was up to some tricks), I guess with a few teams running that unit and with McLaren joining that crew next year, why would they?

Either way, and as some have pointed out, the gap and margin they have over the rest is monstrous, to the point of "why even bother". But again, this is what happens when a team push hard for a set of regulations that they know they can work towards and dominate. Even without Hamilton they would be waling away with it, he is obviously very happy with the car and can push with no issues at all.

The 2022 regs MIGHT switch it up, but Merc literally have so much money and power, they can so what they want, however they want.

Inquitus · 22-07-2020 5:57pm

I still reckon there is some pace in the Red Bull car if can solve their balance issues that is making it soo hard to drive, esp in Qually.

namloc1980 · 22-07-2020 6:16pm

The 2022 regulations are principally chassis and aero related. The power units won't be changing much so Merc can essentially keep the PU ticking over and concentrate their resources on the new chassis and aero for 2022. That gives them a huge advantage already over the likes of Ferrari who have a duff power unit.

Frank Bullitt · 22-07-2020 6:26pm

Inquitus wrote: »

I still reckon there is some pace in the Red Bull car if can solve their balance issues that is making it soo hard to drive, esp in Qually.

They have been slow starters the past few seasons, and with a short season I had hoped they would start a bit better.

AMKC · 22-07-2020 6:40pm

I think all we can hope for next year is that maybe McLaren with the Mercedes engines might be able to challenge Mercedes. Maybe hope that Red Bull starts better next year as they should have there car issues sorted by then otherwise its Racing Point that can maybe still challenge them if there car is found to be legal.

El_Duderino 09 · 22-07-2020 6:43pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

The 2022 regulations are principally chassis and aero related. The power units won't be changing much so Merc can essentially keep the PU ticking over and concentrate their resources on the new chassis and aero for 2022. That gives them a huge advantage already over the likes of Ferrari who have a duff power unit.

Mercedes has had the beat power unit for most of the last 20 odd years. That's an advantage that can almost be taken for granted. The 2022 regs will make track position less important and will hopefully make following and overtaking easier. But it's unlikely to change much about the running order.

Mercedes is the best at building cars and I'd expect that to carry over to 2022.

Santan · 22-07-2020 7:20pm

I hate saying it as it sounds like sour grapes, but I can't take all Hamiltons titles seriously. I know it's easy to say it as he is such a divisive person between fans, but if Jenson had of stayed with Brawn after the sale to Mercedes and he was on the same level of wins and titles I would say the exact same, and I really like Jenson. It's just Mercedes have done such an incredible job every year since coming back, that if Hamilton had not joined and Rosberg became the number 1 in 2014 and had gone on this winning streak, would it be looked at in the same way.

GarIT · 22-07-2020 7:23pm

I just read that yesterday that until 2019 teams were allowed store 2L of fuel outside of the fuel tank and not counted by the fuel flow sensor. In 2020 this has been reduced to 250ml. That could be Ferrari's advantage, that they were using the 2L effectively.

Harika · 22-07-2020 7:27pm

Rumours of a third race in Silverstone due to increase of Covid in Catalunya come the 14–16th August.
Edith
Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

pjohnson · 22-07-2020 7:59pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Red Bull/AlphaTauri wont have a reserve driver as it stands for the British races. Both Buemi and Camara will be in Germany for the Formula E finale.

Neither Daruvala or Tsunoda have the criteria for a superlicence.

Update:
Now rumours Hartley might be re-joining Red Bull/AlphaTauri as Reserve since he just left Dragon.

namloc1980 · 22-07-2020 8:07pm

Harika wrote: »

Rumours of a third race in Silverstone due to increase of Covid in Catalunya come the 14–16th August.
Edith
Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

Imola and Hockenheim....love it. Pity about the lack competition on the track at the front.

Anesthetize · 22-07-2020 8:20pm

Harika wrote: »

Spa then Monza then Mugello thens 2 week break Sochi and then another triple header in Europe with Portimão, Hockenheim and Imola.

Some sources are saying Nurburgring. Not sure if this means we won't get Hockenheim as well.

TCP/IP · 22-07-2020 8:25pm

barryribs wrote: »

I don't understand this at all, Mercedes have done the best job by miles, but they should step away? Ferrari couldn't beat them in what is generally considered an illegal car, and when they could match them end up imploding or shooting themselves in the foot.

So do you think the current dominance of Mercedes is good for the sport.
What happens if they win say 10 drivers and constructors doubles in a row I will tell you the sport will collapse and die. Is that what you want?

barryribs · 22-07-2020 10:06pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

So do you think the current dominance of Mercedes is good for the sport.
What happens if they win say 10 drivers and constructors doubles in a row I will tell you the sport will collapse and die. Is that what you want?

Its a competition, it's not Mercedes fault that the other teams couldn't get their act together for the last 6 years. The same rules apply to all teams (almost all teams), Mercedes have just done a better job within those rules. I don't see why they should be told to leave the sport for that.

If you want parity, go watch a spec series.

TCP/IP · 22-07-2020 10:19pm

barryribs wrote: »

Its a competition, it's not Mercedes fault that the other teams couldn't get their act together for the last 6 years. The same rules apply to all teams (almost all teams), Mercedes have just done a better job within those rules. I don't see why they should be told to leave the sport for that.

If you want parity, go watch a spec series.

No one is saying they should be asked to leave I said the way it is at the minute it would be better if they were not in F1 and I don’t think many people would agree with your point. We all just want the sport to grow and become more popular the way it is now it will be the complete opposite.

flazio · 22-07-2020 10:35pm

How feasible would Suzuka and Fuji be? Have Japan got the virus under control?

Parsnips · 22-07-2020 10:52pm

Dont think so . I cant see the Olympics going ahead next year either.

I think the public are slightly blind to how long this Epidemic could go on for.
going by news it may be well into next year before a vaccine is produced.

I vote to put hoses around every track and soak it for the whole race every race. its the best leveller we can expect for now. ( and has been for years)

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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