How often do the homeless starve?

johndefterios · 17-12-2018 11:58am #1

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

17-12-2018 12:06pm

johndefterios wrote: »

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

The kindness of others, be it a soup run courtesy of the Simon Community or random donation from a passer-by on the street. You're not that naive.

Graces7 · 17-12-2018 12:07pm

johndefterios wrote: »

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

Merchants Quay and many other fine folk feed and care for them.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 12:28pm

Most, if not all, the people sleeping on the streets are not there because they have nowhere else to sleep, exactly. It's a common misconception. There are almost always beds available with one service or another, it's that the people are unwilling or more likely unable to meet the conditions of stay. For example no drugs or drink in homeless hostels is the big one, people with severe addictions are unable/unwilling to follow that condition and so will not or cannot take up a hostel bed. Other various anti social behaviour rules are similar. you also have those that are too mentally unwell to follow the conditions, and people who simply choose not to take what's on offer as they prefer the freedom of being on their own.
They can however access food resources, soup kitchens, homeless food drops. People will give food to the homeless instead of coins if they are begging etc. Even bin diving and so on.

yourdeadwright · 17-12-2018 12:31pm

johndefterios wrote: »

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

The may not die from hunger but lack of good food certainly can contribute deaths of homeless people ,

Its not rocket science , if you took two men with homes and had one eating healthy food every day and one eating what the homeless eat who do you think will live longer ?

Graces7 · 17-12-2018 12:43pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Most, if not all, the people sleeping on the streets are not there because they have nowhere else to sleep, exactly. It's a common misconception. There are almost always beds available with one service or another, it's that the people are unwilling or more likely unable to meet the conditions of stay. For example no drugs or drink in homeless hostels is the big one, people with severe addictions are unable/unwilling to follow that condition and so will not or cannot take up a hostel bed. Other various anti social behaviour rules are similar. you also have those that are too mentally unwell to follow the conditions, and people who simply choose not to take what's on offer as they prefer the freedom of being on their own.
They can however access food resources, soup kitchens, homeless food drops. People will give food to the homeless instead of coins if they are begging etc. Even bin diving and so on.

Many refuse to sleep in the hostels because of drug use therein. They are not always safe places.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 12:44pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Many refuse to sleep in the hostels because of drug use therein. They are not always safe places.

Also very much true.

17-12-2018 1:11pm

People on the street are entitled to claim social welfare like everyone else. They just don't tend to budget their money wisely.

Berserker · 17-12-2018 1:15pm

I buy meals for a homeless people quite often. Was in town last Saturday week and there was a young girl begging on O' Connell street. Was going for lunch myself so I asked her if she wanted something. Told me she'd wanted a big mac meal and a cup of tea. Not a McD person myself but I popped in and bought it for her. My wife does the same. Young girl with a small baby begs near her workplace. She bought the baby clothes last week. We used to give them money but were told not to do so by some charity workers we met a few months back. I know of plenty of other people who do things like this.

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 1:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

People on the street are entitled to claim social welfare like everyone else. They just don't tend to budget their money wisely.

Did they change the rules? I know it used to be a huge problem that you couldn't get social welfare unless you had a provable fixed address, which obviously homeless people don't have.

17-12-2018 1:17pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Did they change the rules? I know it used to be a huge problem that you couldn't get social welfare unless you had a provable fixed address, which obviously homeless people don't have.

They can list the likes of Merchants Quay or whatever service they're linking in with as their address.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 1:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

People on the street are entitled to claim social welfare like everyone else. They just don't tend to budget their money wisely.

It's difficult if not impossible to claim regular social welfare payments if you do not have an address, or a bank account, or the mental capability to understand and follow the rules of claiming.
What social welfare payment do you think a mentally ill alcoholic who sleeps under a bridge can claim exactly? And how would they do it?

Harry Palmr · 17-12-2018 1:18pm

Seriously first post and you've been wondering have you?

Now we will have a to and fro about the "homeless" and this will of course mutate into arguments around dole scroungers, encouraging bad habits by being foolishly kind, the welfare state, homelessness is it real or fake and the whole ****ing nine yards of bull**** baloney.

realdanbreen · 17-12-2018 1:19pm

johndefterios wrote: »

I don't judge but../QUOTE]

Sure you don't.

17-12-2018 1:19pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

It's difficult if not impossible to claim regular social welfare payments if you do not have an address, or a bank account, or the mental capability to understand and follow the rules of claiming.
What social welfare payment do you think a mentally ill alcoholic who sleeps under a bridge can claim exactly? And how would they do it?

If they are involved with homeless services, often a keyworker will help them to access their payment. Of course it's difficult and complex and some might not claim their payment, but they are within their right to claim social welfare and like I said are often helped through this process by staff in the services they link in with.

Berserker · 17-12-2018 1:20pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Seriously first post and you've been wondering have you?

Now we will have a to and fro about the "homeless" and this will of course mutate into arguments around dole scroungers, encouraging bad habits by being foolishly kind, the welfare state, homelessness is it real or fake and the whole ****ing nine yards of bull**** baloney.

Get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 1:20pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Many refuse to sleep in the hostels because of drug use therein. They are not always safe places.

It depends on the hostel , there's a couple of different types.
Some accommodations have a higher threshold and are much more strict around behavior.
Lower threshold hostel accept and work with people around thier drug use and alcohol issues.
It's not quite that simple to say they are not always safe.

Bigbagofcans · 17-12-2018 1:21pm

Berserker wrote: »

I buy meals for a homeless people quite often. Was in town last Saturday week and there was a young girl begging on O' Connell street. Was going for lunch myself so I asked her if she wanted something. Told me she'd wanted a big mac meal and a cup of tea. Not a McD person myself but I popped in and bought it for her. My wife does the same. Young girl with a small baby begs near her workplace. She bought the baby clothes last week. We used to give them money but were told not to do so by some charity workers we met a few months back. I know of plenty of other people who do things like this.

You and your wife are lovely people

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 1:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If they are involved with homeless services, often a keyworker will help them to access their payment. Of course it's difficult and complex and some might not claim their payment, but they are within their right to claim social welfare and like I said are often helped through this process by staff in the services they link in with.

That is a naive and simplistic viewpoint. It simply does not work like that. I asked you specifically WHICH payment you think a mentally ill alcoholic street sleeper is entitled to and how they go about getting it. Do you have any idea?

17-12-2018 1:23pm

johndefterios wrote: »

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

Here we go again, another rereg thinly veiled troll.

Harry Palmr · 17-12-2018 1:24pm

Berserker wrote: »

Get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

It's a classic dogwhistle thread. First time poster "wondering about stuff", don't be naive this OP is creating a thread for more argument on AH, he isn't interested about the homeless at all.

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 1:25pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Seriously first post and you've been wondering have you?

Now we will have a to and fro about the "homeless" and this will of course mutate into arguments around dole scroungers, encouraging bad habits by being foolishly kind, the welfare state, homelessness is it real or fake and the whole ****ing nine yards of bull**** baloney.

You forgot immigrants and asylum seekers. They single handedly caused the housing crisis :P

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 1:26pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

That is a naive and simplistic viewpoint. It simply does not work like that. I asked you specifically WHICH payment you think a mentally ill alcoholic street sleeper is entitled to and how they go about getting it. Do you have any idea?

Disability. Addicts get disability as their addition means they can't work.

Graces7 · 17-12-2018 1:27pm

corner of hells wrote: »

It depends on the hostel , there's a couple of different types.
Some accommodations have a higher threshold and are much more strict around behavior.
Lower threshold hostel accept and work with people around thier drug use and alcohol issues.
It's not quite that simple to say they are not always safe.

I think you misread me! Not always safe ie not safe always . ie some are safe others are not and beds go faster in the safe ones.

If it were me? Would rather sleep in a doorway

17-12-2018 1:28pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

That is a naive and simplistic viewpoint. It simply does not work like that. I asked you specifically WHICH payment you think a mentally ill alcoholic street sleeper is entitled to and how they go about getting it. Do you have any idea?

Naive and simplistic? The OP asked why homeless people don't starve, and I'm explaining why they don't.

And if they were a mentally ill alcoholic, they would draw disability payment.

Kilometres na gcopaleen · 17-12-2018 1:29pm

The Department of Employment Affairs & Social Protection has dedicated Homeless Persons Units.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/losing_your_home/agencies_for_homeless_people.html#l7cb6c

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 1:31pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Disability. Addicts get disability as their addition means they can't work.

How does a homeless person go about getting disability, do you think? How do they get the letters telling them where their assessment appointment is, and how do they get there on the right time and day? And how do they manage the appeal when they get turned down for it, even if they managed to get the letter telling them they are turned down for it? How do they collect their payments on a regular basis?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 1:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Naive and simplistic? The OP asked why homeless people don't starve, and I'm explaining why they don't.

And if they were a mentally ill alcoholic, they would draw disability payment.

HOW? you actually have no idea, so why are you speaking about it?

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 1:35pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

How does a homeless person go about getting disability, do you think? How do they get the letters telling them where their assessment appointment is, and how do they get there on the right time and day? And how do they manage the appeal when they get turned down for it, even if they managed to get the letter telling them they are turned down for it? How do they collect their payments on a regular basis?

That's what I was asking up thread. Collecting the payment wouldn't be a problem as they could get it at the Post Office. Someone said they can designate a hostel as their address so they could collect post there.

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 1:37pm

Housing and other supports for homeless people.

Your entitlement to social welfare payments is not affected by the fact of being homeless but you may have difficulty getting your payments, mainly because of not having a permanent address. You may make any claims for payments such as Jobseeker’s Allowance or illness and disability payments in the normal way.

For Rent Supplement and other payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme (see below) you apply in the normal way unless you are in Dublin or Cork. If you are in Dublin or Cork, you apply at the relevant Homeless Persons Unit.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 1:40pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That's what I was asking up thread. Collecting the payment wouldn't be a problem as they could get it at the Post Office. Someone said they can designate a hostel as their address so they could collect post there.

They can't designate a hostel as their address unless it is their address, its usually not allowed. Even if they did that, half the time they would never remember which hostel or to come back regularly to check for letters.
You can designate a post office, sure, but you have to show proof of ID and have your card for collection. Do you think mentally ill alcoholic homeless people are particularly good at keeping track of their documentation?

Like I said, naive and simplistic.

Geuze · 17-12-2018 1:57pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

It's difficult if not impossible to claim regular social welfare payments if you do not have an address, or a bank account, or the mental capability to understand and follow the rules of claiming.
What social welfare payment do you think a mentally ill alcoholic who sleeps under a bridge can claim exactly? And how would they do it?

DA or SWA?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 2:21pm

Geuze wrote: »

DA or SWA?

Again, without an address and the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming, and the ability to do all the things needed to claim, its almost impossible.

Being entitled to a payment does not mean you can actually access that payment. Very few street sleepers would have access to social welfare.

topper75 · 17-12-2018 2:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

People on the street are entitled to claim social welfare like everyone else. They just don't tend to budget their money wisely.

Many think we live back in Dickensian times - they read/see a Christmas Carol or some such thing and get all emotionally affected - "Oh I want to be a kind person too saving the world, I want to be that hero".

They totally fail to realise we are all already that hero.

We are that hero every month through income tax, PRSI, USC, etc.

sbsquarepants · 17-12-2018 2:53pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Again, without an address and the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming, and the ability to do all the things needed to claim, its almost impossible.

Obviously if you "don't have the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming" you're going to have trouble claiming - but that's not the same thing as not being entitled to claim in the first place.

It's written there in black and white - being homeless does not effect your entitlement to social welfare.

Being too fúcked up on heroin to collect it is not the same thing as not being entitled to it.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 2:53pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

They can't designate a hostel as their address unless it is their address, its usually not allowed. Even if they did that, half the time they would never remember which hostel or to come back regularly to check for letters.
You can designate a post office, sure, but you have to show proof of ID and have your card for collection. Do you think mentally ill alcoholic homeless people are particularly good at keeping track of their documentation?

Like I said, naive and simplistic.

Some chronic entrenched rough sleepers with mental I'll health or drug addiction will use drop in centres with staff support as thier address.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 2:55pm

Graces7 wrote: »

I think you misread me! Not always safe ie not safe always . ie some are safe others are not and beds go faster in the safe ones.

If it were me? Would rather sleep in a doorway

Nope , I understand you.

Stating that you would rather sleep in a door way give an indication you don't understand the various types of hostels.
Beds are not allocated the way you describe either.

wakka12 · 17-12-2018 2:56pm

Nobody starves. You can get giant baguettes in every local convenience store or aldi or lidl for like a euro,a huge bag of cookies for a euro, a big sausage roll or burger for a euro or two, they might not be in good health but absolutely nobody starves in ireland, everybody is fat because food is so cheap, you only need to get a few euro to fill your boots and anybody on the street begging for an entire day will get at least a few euro every hour

Theres also a lot of charity food resources around such as soup kitchens and food drops

I really cant belive there are adults who think theres people,anybody, starving in ireland, no wonder all this homelessness stuff managed to kick up such a sensational storm

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 3:28pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Obviously if you "don't have the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming" you're going to have trouble claiming - but that's not the same thing as not being entitled to claim in the first place.

It's written there in black and white - being homeless does not effect your entitlement to social welfare.

Being too fúcked up on heroin to collect it is not the same thing as not being entitled to it.

Oh lord, I never argued that someone was ENTITLED to it, I said that doesn't mean they ACTUALLY GET IT. I specifically laid out the difference and the difficulties. The question was never about entitlement, but about actually getting it. An entitlement to social welfare doesn't buy food, actual cash does.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it to you if you can't understand.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 3:29pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Some chronic entrenched rough sleepers with mental I'll health or drug addiction will use drop in centres with staff support as thier address.

Some will, MOST will not

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 3:31pm

topper75 wrote: »

Many think we live back in Dickensian times - they read/see a Christmas Carol or some such thing and get all emotionally affected - "Oh I want to be a kind person too saving the world, I want to be that hero".

They totally fail to realise we are all already that hero.

We are that hero every month through income tax, PRSI, USC, etc.

You're not that hero! Most people already take more out of the pot than they put in, you're not paying to get homeless people off the street or feed them. You can try and feel the warm and fuzzies all you like, but hero you are not. If you want to be, go volunteer at your local homeless services, raise some money, actually interact with people and do some real good. Don't sit there telling yourself the fiver a week you pay in USC is doing the job for you....

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 5:06pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

You're not that hero! Most people already take more out of the pot than they put in, you're not paying to get homeless people off the street or feed them. You can try and feel the warm and fuzzies all you like, but hero you are not. If you want to be, go volunteer at your local homeless services, raise some money, actually interact with people and do some real good. Don't sit there telling yourself the fiver a week you pay in USC is doing the job for you....

So , do you volunteer with a local homeless service ?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 5:10pm

corner of hells wrote: »

So , do you volunteer with a local homeless service ?

Yes. I've also worked in this area in a paid position.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 5:11pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Yes.

Snap , I'm years working in homeless services , drug services , drop in centres and outreach.

So , tell us bout the ( some ) entrenched homeless who don't access support ?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 5:14pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Snap , I'm years working in homeless services , drug services , drop in centres and outreach.

So , tell us bout the ( some ) entrenched homeless who don't access support ?

I already have, but I imagine you know all about it if that is your background. What more would you like to know?

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 5:17pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

I already have, but I imagine you know all about it if that is your background. What more would you like to know?

Very very few entrenched homeless are not accessing support and a payment at some level , even if it's the most basic level of outreach support.

The only souls who have no payment at all are non HRC.

I'm just kinda surprised when you say most don't access payment or support.

ccarr · 17-12-2018 5:18pm

You can get welfare when homeless. There is homeless section of welfare based in Dublin city. Who pay people who are homeless. This happens for year's. Use to be be down by community welfare officer's in the health boards

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 5:22pm

ccarr wrote: »

You can get welfare when homeless. There is homeless section of welfare based in Dublin city. Who pay people who are homeless. This happens for year's. Use to be be down by community welfare officer's in the health boards

Yep absolutely.

padd b1975 · 17-12-2018 5:37pm

Mick Barry and Ruth Coppinger feed them with the part of their salaries that they nobly donate to good causes.

LOL.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 5:39pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Very very few entrenched homeless are not accessing support and a payment at some level , even if it's the most basic level of outreach support.

The only souls who have no payment at all are non HRC.

I'm just kinda surprised when you say most don't access payment or support.

I didn't say most I said some. People come in and out of the system and drift in and out of support. Someone who was on SW and in a hostel one winter maybe outside both of those supports by the next. It's far from a static group.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 5:44pm

FelaniaMump wrote: »

I didn't say most I said some. People come in and out of the system and drift in and out of support. Someone who was on SW and in a hostel one winter maybe outside both of those supports by the next. It's far from a static group.

You're familiar with the online network that tracks registered homeless ?

How often do the homeless starve?

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