How often do the homeless starve?

Geuze · 17-12-2018 01:57PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

It's difficult if not impossible to claim regular social welfare payments if you do not have an address, or a bank account, or the mental capability to understand and follow the rules of claiming.
What social welfare payment do you think a mentally ill alcoholic who sleeps under a bridge can claim exactly? And how would they do it?

DA or SWA?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 02:21PM

Geuze wrote: »

DA or SWA?

Again, without an address and the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming, and the ability to do all the things needed to claim, its almost impossible.

Being entitled to a payment does not mean you can actually access that payment. Very few street sleepers would have access to social welfare.

topper75 · 17-12-2018 02:44PM

Deleted User wrote: »

People on the street are entitled to claim social welfare like everyone else. They just don't tend to budget their money wisely.

Many think we live back in Dickensian times - they read/see a Christmas Carol or some such thing and get all emotionally affected - "Oh I want to be a kind person too saving the world, I want to be that hero".

They totally fail to realise we are all already that hero.

We are that hero every month through income tax, PRSI, USC, etc.

sbsquarepants · 17-12-2018 02:53PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Again, without an address and the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming, and the ability to do all the things needed to claim, its almost impossible.

Obviously if you "don't have the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming" you're going to have trouble claiming - but that's not the same thing as not being entitled to claim in the first place.

It's written there in black and white - being homeless does not effect your entitlement to social welfare.

Being too fúcked up on heroin to collect it is not the same thing as not being entitled to it.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 02:53PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

They can't designate a hostel as their address unless it is their address, its usually not allowed. Even if they did that, half the time they would never remember which hostel or to come back regularly to check for letters.
You can designate a post office, sure, but you have to show proof of ID and have your card for collection. Do you think mentally ill alcoholic homeless people are particularly good at keeping track of their documentation?

Like I said, naive and simplistic.

Some chronic entrenched rough sleepers with mental I'll health or drug addiction will use drop in centres with staff support as thier address.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 02:55PM

Graces7 wrote: »

I think you misread me! Not always safe ie not safe always . ie some are safe others are not and beds go faster in the safe ones.

If it were me? Would rather sleep in a doorway

Nope , I understand you.

Stating that you would rather sleep in a door way give an indication you don't understand the various types of hostels.
Beds are not allocated the way you describe either.

wakka12 · 17-12-2018 02:56PM

Nobody starves. You can get giant baguettes in every local convenience store or aldi or lidl for like a euro,a huge bag of cookies for a euro, a big sausage roll or burger for a euro or two, they might not be in good health but absolutely nobody starves in ireland, everybody is fat because food is so cheap, you only need to get a few euro to fill your boots and anybody on the street begging for an entire day will get at least a few euro every hour

Theres also a lot of charity food resources around such as soup kitchens and food drops

I really cant belive there are adults who think theres people,anybody, starving in ireland, no wonder all this homelessness stuff managed to kick up such a sensational storm

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 03:28PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Obviously if you "don't have the mental capability to understand the rules of claiming" you're going to have trouble claiming - but that's not the same thing as not being entitled to claim in the first place.

It's written there in black and white - being homeless does not effect your entitlement to social welfare.

Being too fúcked up on heroin to collect it is not the same thing as not being entitled to it.

Oh lord, I never argued that someone was ENTITLED to it, I said that doesn't mean they ACTUALLY GET IT. I specifically laid out the difference and the difficulties. The question was never about entitlement, but about actually getting it. An entitlement to social welfare doesn't buy food, actual cash does.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain it to you if you can't understand.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 03:29PM

corner of hells wrote: »

Some chronic entrenched rough sleepers with mental I'll health or drug addiction will use drop in centres with staff support as thier address.

Some will, MOST will not

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 03:31PM

topper75 wrote: »

Many think we live back in Dickensian times - they read/see a Christmas Carol or some such thing and get all emotionally affected - "Oh I want to be a kind person too saving the world, I want to be that hero".

They totally fail to realise we are all already that hero.

We are that hero every month through income tax, PRSI, USC, etc.

You're not that hero! Most people already take more out of the pot than they put in, you're not paying to get homeless people off the street or feed them. You can try and feel the warm and fuzzies all you like, but hero you are not. If you want to be, go volunteer at your local homeless services, raise some money, actually interact with people and do some real good. Don't sit there telling yourself the fiver a week you pay in USC is doing the job for you....

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 05:06PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

You're not that hero! Most people already take more out of the pot than they put in, you're not paying to get homeless people off the street or feed them. You can try and feel the warm and fuzzies all you like, but hero you are not. If you want to be, go volunteer at your local homeless services, raise some money, actually interact with people and do some real good. Don't sit there telling yourself the fiver a week you pay in USC is doing the job for you....

So , do you volunteer with a local homeless service ?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 05:10PM

corner of hells wrote: »

So , do you volunteer with a local homeless service ?

Yes. I've also worked in this area in a paid position.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 05:11PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Yes.

Snap , I'm years working in homeless services , drug services , drop in centres and outreach.

So , tell us bout the ( some ) entrenched homeless who don't access support ?

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 05:14PM

corner of hells wrote: »

Snap , I'm years working in homeless services , drug services , drop in centres and outreach.

So , tell us bout the ( some ) entrenched homeless who don't access support ?

I already have, but I imagine you know all about it if that is your background. What more would you like to know?

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 05:17PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

I already have, but I imagine you know all about it if that is your background. What more would you like to know?

Very very few entrenched homeless are not accessing support and a payment at some level , even if it's the most basic level of outreach support.

The only souls who have no payment at all are non HRC.

I'm just kinda surprised when you say most don't access payment or support.

ccarr · 17-12-2018 05:18PM

You can get welfare when homeless. There is homeless section of welfare based in Dublin city. Who pay people who are homeless. This happens for year's. Use to be be down by community welfare officer's in the health boards

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 05:22PM

ccarr wrote: »

You can get welfare when homeless. There is homeless section of welfare based in Dublin city. Who pay people who are homeless. This happens for year's. Use to be be down by community welfare officer's in the health boards

Yep absolutely.

padd b1975 · 17-12-2018 05:37PM

Mick Barry and Ruth Coppinger feed them with the part of their salaries that they nobly donate to good causes.

LOL.

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 05:39PM

corner of hells wrote: »

Very very few entrenched homeless are not accessing support and a payment at some level , even if it's the most basic level of outreach support.

The only souls who have no payment at all are non HRC.

I'm just kinda surprised when you say most don't access payment or support.

I didn't say most I said some. People come in and out of the system and drift in and out of support. Someone who was on SW and in a hostel one winter maybe outside both of those supports by the next. It's far from a static group.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 05:44PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

I didn't say most I said some. People come in and out of the system and drift in and out of support. Someone who was on SW and in a hostel one winter maybe outside both of those supports by the next. It's far from a static group.

You're familiar with the online network that tracks registered homeless ?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-12-2018 05:51PM

It would be nigh on impossible to starve to death in this country. A body can survive over two months without eating food.

It would have to be an intentional act by the person.

trixiebust · 17-12-2018 05:52PM

johndefterios wrote: »

I've been wondering this. My girlfriend says she's been seeing a lot more homeless people sleeping outside. I don't judge but I've always wondered something. How can people be homeless for years and still alive? Wouldn't having no job and no food mean they'd "expire" in a few months?

What a stupid question.

ohnonotgmail · 17-12-2018 06:33PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Some will, MOST will not

FelaniaMump wrote: »

I didn't say most I said some. People come in and out of the system and drift in and out of support. Someone who was on SW and in a hostel one winter maybe outside both of those supports by the next. It's far from a static group.

that looks like you saying most to me.

topper75 · 17-12-2018 06:48PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

You're not that hero! Most people already take more out of the pot than they put in, you're not paying to get homeless people off the street or feed them. You can try and feel the warm and fuzzies all you like, but hero you are not. If you want to be, go volunteer at your local homeless services, raise some money, actually interact with people and do some real good. Don't sit there telling yourself the fiver a week you pay in USC is doing the job for you....

Sorry Felania but that money taken from me on my payslip is real, and it is not a fiver. Please don't be silly in that regard.

My point, and I admit I probably didn't make it directly enough, is that you can tax me for a fairer society or you can ask me to contribute charitably to people directly in the street/agencies working for those in the street.

But don't ask me to do both. Because that is just taking the urine out of people.

So which is it? What is wrong with our welfare system where you believe I need to also buy food for people out of work?

Those of a leftist persuasion would often point with envy at the social systems in Scandinavia, supported by high tax. A Swedish colleague here is still aghast at the lax system we have for welfare where you can sign on indefinitely. Sweden pays generously when you find yourself out of work. But if you are still out of work after 2 years - you get nothing.

corner of hells · 17-12-2018 06:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that looks like you saying most to me.

Damn you.... Damn you to hell ruining a good thread .

FelaniaMump · 17-12-2018 09:52PM

topper75 wrote: »

My point, and I admit I probably didn't make it directly enough, is that you can tax me for a fairer society or you can ask me to contribute charitably to people directly in the street/agencies working for those in the street.

But don't ask me to do both. Because that is just taking the urine out of people.

Gosh, really? Many of us do both, gladly. You can choose not to, of course, but calling yourself a hero for paying your legally owed taxes that only really benefit yourself anyway while doing so is a little much, don't you think?

This "I pay my tax so its taking the piss out of me asking me to donate to charity" stance, not very heroic, I think even you have to agree...

mikemac2 · 17-12-2018 09:59PM

Some people in Ireland starved to death in the 1920's. It was hushed up as it would be an international embarrassment for the Free State to be shown as so incompetent.

Top man Fin Dwyer has a good article on it
https://irishhistorypodcast.ie/1925-irelands-forgotten-famine/

Minster for Finance Ernst Blythe went down in history as the man who cut the old age pension

In 20 years nobody will remember Paschal Donohue but Blythe gets into school books. Well at least he did when I did the leaving cert and I'm not that old

Paddy Cow · 17-12-2018 11:23PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Gosh, really? Many of us do both, gladly. You can choose not to, of course, but calling yourself a hero for paying your legally owed taxes that only really benefit yourself anyway while doing so is a little much, don't you think?

This "I pay my tax so its taking the piss out of me asking me to donate to charity" stance, not very heroic, I think even you have to agree...

In an earlier post he eluded to Victorian times where people either worked or starved. In this day and age we have social protection, which people pay for out of their taxes. He wasn't saying that he is a hero for paying taxes. It may have been poorly constructed but I can see his point - if you pay taxes, you shouldn't have to feel like you have to donate to the homeless.

Some people do get a hero complex out of helping the homeless - there's numerous videos on Youtube and humblebragging posts on facebook from people who video themselves helping someone out. No I'm not going to post links because there something I've come across but don't save to my computer in case I need them in an online discussion. But they do exist.

In the beginning of this discussion I was with you as I agreed with you that homeless people don't have a residence so I questioned how they would get social welfare. Someone posted that they could register at a hostel. You kept repeating that they would be too mentally ill/alcohol dependant to get their post at a fixed address.

After numerous posts you said that you work with homeless so I couldn't understand why you were dragging out the argument when you have first hand experience. You kept asking what payment an alcoholic could receive. Even I, with no real experience knows that it would be disability.

I honestly don't get where you are coming from. You say you have first hand experience of working with homeless people and as such you could educate people like me. I freely admit I don't understand the complexity of it. I gave my 2cent and was open to correction. This thread is an opportunity for you to tell everyone how hard homeless people actually struggle on a day to day basis but so far all I've seen is someone sniping at other posts and looking for an argument.

skooterblue2 · 17-12-2018 11:51PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

The may not die from hunger but lack of good food certainly can contribute deaths of homeless people ,

Its not rocket science , if you took two men with homes and had one eating healthy food every day and one eating what the homeless eat who do you think will live longer ?

Another aspect of it, is that you much more calories a day to survive. You are out in the element with no quality sleep (to rest the liver) and you must keep mobile and warm. Whatever mental health problems homeless people have they are exacerbated by these extra strains. I wouldn't wish these conditions on my worst enemy. It makes them more cranky, depressed and argumentative.

topper75 · 18-12-2018 03:28PM

FelaniaMump wrote: »

Gosh, really? Many of us do both, gladly. You can choose not to, of course, but calling yourself a hero for paying your legally owed taxes that only really benefit yourself anyway while doing so is a little much, don't you think?

This "I pay my tax so its taking the piss out of me asking me to donate to charity" stance, not very heroic, I think even you have to agree...

So any answer to my question? I'll try again - what in particular is wrong with the social welfare system here that we also have to buy food for people?

How often do the homeless starve?

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