No water protesters

aido79 · 01-02-2015 1:49am #1

I will be putting my house up for rent in the next few months. I would like to think that I can find a tenant who will pay all the utility bills and not leave me stuck with them if they move out or don't pay them. I consider the water charges to be just the same as any other utility and should be paid as such. Just wondering if it's ok to ask a prospective tenant what they're position on water charges is before they move in. I know some people are really struggling and the water charges are just another expense for people but the way I see it is if they can't afford to pay €100 a year for their water then I don't really want them as a tenant to be honest as it may limit their ability to pay the rent too.
(I obviously disagree with the water protests and think that if people don't pay the charges then the government will just take it from somewhere else and make other cuts or increase taxes to pay for it but that's a matter for a different thread)

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy · 01-02-2015 1:52am

Would you take them at their word though.. "Will you keep all the bills paid?"

"'Course we will"

"Here's the keys"

If I was worried I'd just ask for a larger deposit. If you're in an anyway good location, you'll get it.

Graces7 · 01-02-2015 8:38am

aido79 wrote: »

I will be putting my house up for rent in the next few months. I would like to think that I can find a tenant who will pay all the utility bills and not leave me stuck with them if they move out or don't pay them. I consider the water charges to be just the same as any other utility and should be paid as such. Just wondering if it's ok to ask a prospective tenant what they're position on water charges is before they move in. I know some people are really struggling and the water charges are just another expense for people but the way I see it is if they can't afford to pay €100 a year for their water then I don't really want them as a tenant to be honest as it may limit their ability to pay the rent too.
(I obviously disagree with the water protests and think that if people don't pay the charges then the government will just take it from somewhere else and make other cuts or increase taxes to pay for it but that's a matter for a different thread)

Surely this will be the same as other utilities; ie the tenant is responsible and maybe simply include a non highlighted clause in the lease?

aido79 · 01-02-2015 9:30am

The Cunning Linguist wrote: »

Would you take them at their word though.. "Will you keep all the bills paid?"

"'Course we will"

"Here's the keys"

If I was worried I'd just ask for a larger deposit. If you're in an anyway good location, you'll get it.

Thats true. Just wondered by asking them through general conversation what their stance on the issue was might help.

aido79 · 01-02-2015 9:31am

Graces7 wrote: »

Surely this will be the same as other utilities; ie the tenant is responsible and maybe simply include a non highlighted clause in the lease?

Yes but a lot of water protesters see it as a tax and not a utility. It would be a good idea to put it in the lease.

garhjw · 01-02-2015 10:04am

It's stated in my leases that tenants are liable for all utilities, including water.

OP, you could also send IW the tenants name and they can send a. Registration pack to them.

aido79 · 01-02-2015 3:14pm

garhjw wrote: »

It's stated in my leases that tenants are liable for all utilities, including water.

OP, you could also send IW the tenants name and they can send a. Registration pack to them.

Good ideas. I'll do that. Thanks.

Pawwed Rig · 01-02-2015 3:34pm

It really makes no difference to you as to whether they pay their utilities or not. The contract is between them and the utility company and does not transfer to the landlord if the tenant does not pay. All you need to do to cover yourself completely is to submit meter readings on the day the tenant moves out.
Now in the event of a default the utility company will often chance their arm and say it is your liability but this is a bluff and has no legal basis.

Goodne · 01-02-2015 4:34pm

Who would cover the cost of a tenant removing the water meter? I would be inclined to ask for a larger deposit to cover the costs.

GerardKeating · 01-02-2015 4:49pm

Goodne wrote: »

Who would cover the cost of a tenant removing the water meter? I would be inclined to ask for a larger deposit to cover the costs.

Would that not actually be a criminal offence ?

Eric Cartman · 01-02-2015 6:00pm

Id be inclined to add in a line about agreeing to pay the water charges, not obstruct any sierra / IW staff and not tamper woth the meter, any of the people on their moral high ground would kick up a fuss about signing that anyway and youd tell pretty quick who will and wont cause trouble.

To any landlords renting out RA properties , I would collect a seperate water charges deposit to the full ampunt ex conservation grant

Gatling · 01-02-2015 6:04pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

To any landlords renting out RA properties , I would collect a seperate water charges deposit to the full ampunt ex conservation grant

A second deposit because there on rent supplement ,
Might be counted as discrimination .

You do realise people on rent supplement can get all the bills paid through the local cwo from gas and electricity and now likely water ,
They will probably in a better position to pay than most

January · 01-02-2015 6:27pm

Gatling wrote: »

A second deposit because there on rent supplement ,
Might be counted as discrimination .

You do realise people on rent supplement can get all the bills paid through the local cwo from gas and electricity and now likely water ,
They will probably in a better position to pay than most

Since when?

Gatling · 01-02-2015 6:32pm

January wrote: »

Since when?

Since forever ,
CWO 's pay thousands of utility bills every month ,
If I remember correctly Joan Burton said on a programme they dept of social protection pays 300,000 bills in full every month,
It's covered under discretionary payments

Bob24 · 01-02-2015 6:37pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It really makes no difference to you as to whether they pay their utilities or not. The contract is between them and the utility company and does not transfer to the landlord if the tenant does not pay.

But that is if they register as customers with Irish Water right?

If they don't send their application pack, there will be no contract between them and Irish Water. And I think if no one is registered, the landlord is legally liable?

Maybe rather that asking them to pay, the best thing to do is to ensure they do indeed register as customers? Then whether they are paying or not is not the landlord's problem anymore, but rather Irish Water's problem.

circadian · 01-02-2015 6:39pm

garhjw wrote: »

It's stated in my leases that tenants are liable for all utilities, including water.

OP, you could also send IW the tenants name and they can send a. Registration pack to them.

I wouldn't recommend sending any sort of personal information to another party.

Goodne · 01-02-2015 6:52pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Would that not actually be a criminal offence ?

I don't know if it is or not but how would you prove it was the tenant? The meter is on a public footpath after all. But you can be sure the landlord would have to pay to have it reinstall if it was removed.

garhjw · 01-02-2015 7:10pm

circadian wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend sending any sort of personal information to another party.

I confirmed with the ODPC that it is permissible to pass on a tenants name and address to IW.

Pawwed Rig · 01-02-2015 7:11pm

Bob24 wrote: »

If they don't send their application pack, there will be no contract between them and Irish Water. And I think if no one is registered, the landlord is legally liable?

Nope. IW tried to claim that was the case but it just isn't. In fact a Landlord cannot even check to see if his tenants have registered if he rings Irish Water. The usual utility contract rules apply.

Bob24 · 01-02-2015 7:39pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Nope. IW tried to claim that was the case but it just isn't. In fact a Landlord cannot even check to see if his tenants have registered if he rings Irish Water. The usual utility contract rules apply.

Things don't work like with your "usual" utility though. If neither a tenant not a landlord registers as a customer, IW doesn't have a contract with anyone and is still providing the service for free (whereas Electric Ireland or Eircom would disconnect the premises which would quickly prompt for someone to register as a customer).

It seems like it would be a bit too easy to get free service and not registering would become endemic with tenants. Surely there must be something planned to prevent this from happening?

Gatling · 01-02-2015 7:47pm

Bob24 wrote: »

Things don't work like with your "usual" utility though. If neither a tenant not a landlord registers as a customer, IW doesn't have a contract with anyone and is still providing the service for free (whereas Electric Ireland or Eircom would disconnect the premises which would quickly prompt for someone to register as a customer).

It seems like it would be a bit too easy to get free service and not registering would become endemic with tenants. Surely there must be something planned to prevent this from happening?

What can they legally do ,im registered without even contacting iw ,
For instance unmetered apartment complexes don't pay cant cut you off or reduce your flow,
I've heard some management companies have suggest they get the deposits so they can pay if tenants don't cant see how that's remotely legal ,
Other management companies threatened evictions if tenants didn't register only to face backlashes from owners ,tenants and legal professionals

Pawwed Rig · 01-02-2015 8:27pm

Bob24 wrote: »

It seems like it would be a bit too easy to get free service and not registering would become endemic with tenants. Surely there must be something planned to prevent this from happening?

They haven't really thought it through very well which is one of the reasons we are seeing problems now. The info they have released has been chaotic and contradictory and in many cases incorrect. The tenant will be ultimately liable but it is not yet clear how the enforcement will work.
If the Landlord would be chargeable then this benefit would (in some cases) exceed allowable rent thresholds (for SW tenants) thereby breaching the law.

Mrs OBumble · 01-02-2015 10:47pm

OP, yes, of course you can put "Water charges protesters need not apply" when you advertise: you may discriminate on any grounds you like apart from the Big Nine (age, sex, ethnicity, disability ... etc), and this includes environment consciousness.

And I would just put something in into the lease saying that the tenant needs to supply you with a copy of the documents they complete to register with IW. If someone asks you to remove this bit - they're not the tenant for you. Simples.

Eric Cartman · 01-02-2015 10:47pm

Gatling wrote: »

A second deposit because there on rent supplement ,
Might be counted as discrimination .

You do realise people on rent supplement can get all the bills paid through the local cwo from gas and electricity and now likely water ,
They will probably in a better position to pay than most

well then do it to everybody to avoid discrimination. The biggest difference is, if you bring somebody working to small claims youll likely get your money back in full, or in 2-3 installments, if you bring somebody on welfare to small claims youll get 5 euro a week if even.

Gatling · 01-02-2015 10:53pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

well then do it to everybody to avoid discrimination. The biggest difference is, if you bring somebody working to small claims youll likely get your money back in full, or in 2-3 installments, if you bring somebody on welfare to small claims youll get 5 euro a week if even.

But people on sw are more likely be able to pay compared to say somebody or a family renting on middle type income that have 1000-1500pm on top of child care ,car costs ,prsi and usc ,
And as i said earlier people on sw have full access to cwo's and other Assistance ,

People on rent supplement aren't necessarily the first people not to pay there utilities

Eric Cartman · 01-02-2015 10:58pm

Gatling wrote: »

But people on sw are more likely be able to pay compared to say somebody or a family renting on middle type income that have 1000-1500pm on top of child care ,car costs ,prsi and usc ,
And as i said earlier people on sw have full access to cwo's and other Assistance ,

People on rent supplement aren't necessarily the first people not to pay there utilities

most of the court cases brought every month by the esb have an 'im unemployed' defense on it. Also look at the water protests, the more people on welfare in an area the bigger they are. There are employed people who protest water charges, but the loudest voices in the room are the unemployed, its why there are loads of those protests on week days during office hours, people arent taking a day off work to moan about it. its a massive risk to any landlord and greater than other utilities. If the esb doesnt get paid, it gets disconnected and the landlord can set up a new account and its all sorted. IW have made it clear that unpaid water bills will fall back on the landlord.

Graham · 01-02-2015 11:10pm

Make the new tenant aware that they will be asked to complete the application pack for IW at the signing of the lease

Pawwed Rig · 01-02-2015 11:16pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

IW have made it clear that unpaid water bills will fall back on the landlord.

IW have rowed back on that statement admitting that they have no right whatsoever to do so. This was a couple of months ago now.

aido79 · 02-02-2015 2:31am

Graham wrote: »

Make the new tenant aware that they will be asked to complete the application pack for IW at the signing of the lease

I think this is what I will do just so that everything is clear from the start. The house is brand new(plastering finished last week) and won't be ready for a couple of months but I have already had people interested in renting it such is the demand for rental properties in the area so I shouldn't have a problem finding a tenant.

Graces7 · 02-02-2015 6:51am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It really makes no difference to you as to whether they pay their utilities or not. The contract is between them and the utility company and does not transfer to the landlord if the tenant does not pay. All you need to do to cover yourself completely is to submit meter readings on the day the tenant moves out.
Now in the event of a default the utility company will often chance their arm and say it is your liability but this is a bluff and has no legal basis.

They did this with my current ll and he fell for it. He knows better now

circadian · 02-02-2015 9:20am

garhjw wrote: »

I confirmed with the ODPC that it is permissible to pass on a tenants name and address to IW.

My concern would be with how the tenant reacts. I'd make it very clear in the lease that names will be forwarded to IW if requested.

murphaph · 02-02-2015 12:12pm

I'd also include a clause in any lease that the tenant acquiesces to the landlord passing on their details to IW.

listermint · 02-02-2015 12:16pm

garhjw wrote: »

It's stated in my leases that tenants are liable for all utilities, including water.

OP, you could also send IW the tenants name and they can send a. Registration pack to them.

I hope more landlord do this because when challenged you will find yourself in court. There is nothing in the Water Services Act to cover you and plenty in the Data Protections act of 2008 to find against you.

You cannot just hand over Tenants information to a Private Utility it is illegal. regardless of your feeling pro or against this charge.

Please inform yourself better before giving out advice such as this. There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.

Good luck.

listermint · 02-02-2015 12:18pm

garhjw wrote: »

I confirmed with the ODPC that it is permissible to pass on a tenants name and address to IW.

When did you do this? and praytell can you detail the correspondence in full and also state where this information is available freely to the public.

tinz18 · 02-02-2015 12:28pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And I would just put something in into the lease saying that the tenant needs to supply you with a copy of the documents they complete to register with IW. If someone asks you to remove this bit - they're not the tenant for you. Simples.

In theory this should work but with Irish Water's incompetence it probably would cause a lot of people trouble. For example, I'm a tenant who has no issue with paying for water. I have spent since September trying to register. Never received a pack (because if I had I could've signed up online and taken a screenshot) so tried to register over the phone. System apparently failed the three times I signed up over the phone and I was told to try again. I emailed/ sent in a paper form etc and although over the phone last week they claim I'm on the system since Nov 24th - I have yet to receive any proof of registration (or the form for my bfs medical needs).

It's beyond frustrating but at least my landlady trusts me enough to know I've signed up- if this was in our lease I'd be scuppered and it would be the fault of Irish Water.

Graham · 02-02-2015 12:38pm

listermint wrote: »

There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.

Any source for the agencies being fined such amounts? I'm struggling to find them.

listermint · 02-02-2015 1:38pm

Graham wrote: »

Any source for the agencies being fined such amounts? I'm struggling to find them.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/credit-union-private-detectives-fined-10500-over-data-breach-30642829.html

Graham · 02-02-2015 1:45pm

listermint wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/credit-union-private-detectives-fined-10500-over-data-breach-30642829.html

That's private detectives using subterfuge to illegally obtain information, not quite the same.

The_Morrigan · 02-02-2015 2:27pm

Folks, I've just deleted a number of posts - can you please stay on topic.

Thanks

Mrs OBumble · 02-02-2015 3:14pm

tinz18 wrote: »

In theory this should work but with Irish Water's incompetence it probably would cause a lot of people trouble. For example, I'm a tenant who has no issue with paying for water. I have spent since September trying to register. Never received a pack (because if I had I could've signed up online and taken a screenshot) so tried to register over the phone. System apparently failed the three times I signed up over the phone and I was told to try again. I emailed/ sent in a paper form etc and although over the phone last week they claim I'm on the system since Nov 24th - I have yet to receive any proof of registration (or the form for my bfs medical needs).

It's beyond frustrating but at least my landlady trusts me enough to know I've signed up- if this was in our lease I'd be scuppered and it would be the fault of Irish Water.

Ahh, but the potential LL doesn't even need to actually see the paperwork. They just need tenants to believe it's a condition of the lease.

Just having the clause in the lease would be enough to scare off any people who are not going to pay their water charges. And that's all a LL really needs to do.

garhjw · 02-02-2015 4:38pm

listermint wrote: »

I hope more landlord do this because when challenged you will find yourself in court. There is nothing in the Water Services Act to cover you and plenty in the Data Protections act of 2008 to find against you.

You cannot just hand over Tenants information to a Private Utility it is illegal. regardless of your feeling pro or against this charge.

Please inform yourself better before giving out advice such as this. There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.

Good luck.

Maybe get your facts straight before you go running your mouth. I contacted the ODPC by email asking if it s permissible to provide IW with tenants details. I received the following response.

Where are you getting your information from? Either you are a liar or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I think it is likely both in your case.

I'm right and you are wrong. Ha ha ha

From: DPC Info <info@dataprotection.ie>
Date: 20 October 2014 17:05:48 IST
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: ODPC response - 20/10/14

Dear xxxxxx

I refer to your recent email to this Office.

If a pack has not been returned from a particular property then
Irish Water can write to the owners of the property who have NOT replied,
seeking information as to whether the property is occupied / unoccupied and
if occupied then who is the tenant. This Office has advised Irish Water
that NAME ONLY of the tenant should be provided.

I hope this is of assistance to you.

Yours Sincerely

Xxxxxxx
Information Officer
Office of the Data Protection Commissioner
Canal House
Station Road
Portarlington
Co. Laois

Ph: 057 868 4800
E: info@dataprotection.ie
www.dataprotection.ie

listermint · 02-02-2015 6:03pm

Graham wrote: »

That's private detectives using subterfuge to illegally obtain information, not quite the same.

Not quite the same for sure, but illegally obtaining information none the less. Unless the tenant gives permission to hand it over or the tenant hands it over themselves both IW and the landlord would be held accountable.

garhjw · 02-02-2015 6:05pm

listermint wrote: »

Not quite the same for sure, but illegally obtaining information none the less. Unless the tenant gives permission to hand it over or the tenant hands it over themselves both IW and the landlord would be held accountable.

Did you read my response? Your wrong AGAIN.

listermint · 02-02-2015 6:05pm

garhjw wrote: »

Maybe get your facts straight before you go running your mouth. I contacted the ODPC by email asking if it s permissible to provide IW with tenants details. I received the following response.

Where are you getting your information from? Either you are a liar or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I think it is likely both in your case.

I'm right and you are wrong. Ha ha ha

From: DPC Info <info@dataprotection.ie>
Date: 20 October 2014 17:05:48 IST
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: ODPC response - 20/10/14

Dear xxxxxx

I refer to your recent email to this Office.

If a pack has not been returned from a particular property then
Irish Water can write to the owners of the property who have NOT replied,
seeking information as to whether the property is occupied / unoccupied and
if occupied then who is the tenant. This Office has advised Irish Water
that NAME ONLY of the tenant should be provided.

I hope this is of assistance to you.

Yours Sincerely

Xxxxxxx
Information Officer
Office of the Data Protection Commissioner
Canal House
Station Road
Portarlington
Co. Laois

Ph: 057 868 4800
E: info@dataprotection.ie
www.dataprotection.ie

Oh right your information was given to you by some unamed information officer around the same time IW was giving out false information.

Your posts are very aggressive. 'running my mouth'

'ha ha ha'

Are you 12 ?

garhjw · 02-02-2015 6:09pm

listermint wrote: »

Oh right your information was given to you by some unamed information officer around the same time IW was giving out false information.

Your posts are very aggressive. 'running my mouth'

'ha ha ha'

Are you 12 ?

So your saying I made it up? I'm not going to give out the name of the person in the ODPC.

I'm laughing at you because you are a liar and don't have a clue what you are talking about. You just go on your loonie left rants with no facts to back it up.

Why not contact the ODPC yourself if you don't believe me. However, I suspect you think the government have them under control too. Perhaps they work for Dennis obrien.

No go back to your commie mates, good girl

listermint · 02-02-2015 6:11pm

garhjw wrote: »

So your saying I made it up? I'm not going to give out the name of the person in the ODPC.

I'm laughing at you because you are a liar and don't have a clue what you are talking about. You just go on your loonie left rants with no facts to back it up.

Why not contact the ODPC yourself if you don't believe me. However, I suspect you think the government have them under control too. Perhaps they work for Dennis obrien.

No go back to your commie mates, good girl

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

The_Morrigan · 02-02-2015 6:17pm

Listermint, Gar behave yourselves. Both of you could do with watching the tone and interactions you use in this thread.

garhjw · 02-02-2015 6:23pm

listermint wrote: »

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

I will refer you to the email I received from the ODPC which contradicts what you are saying. I will take their advice as they know what they are talking about.

Graham · 02-02-2015 7:09pm

listermint wrote: »

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

The email from the ODPC appears to be corroborated by todays Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/when-is-a-deadline-not-a-deadline-and-other-irish-water-questions-answered-1.2088182

Pawwed Rig · 02-02-2015 7:44pm

I think the relavent word is 'wants'. Is there an onus on the LL to respond?

listermint · 02-02-2015 7:45pm

Graham wrote: »

The email from the ODPC appears to be corroborated by todays Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/when-is-a-deadline-not-a-deadline-and-other-irish-water-questions-answered-1.2088182

None of this corroborated with current data protection legislation and its amendments since 2008.

And its not like IW to get it all completely wrong exactly the misinformation they were giving out last year.

Id love someone to explain to me how handing over personal information that is not yours to a private utility without that persons explicit consent be it by lease or contract mirrors what is contained in legislation. Unless of course it has been modified recently? Was there some late night Dail sessions I missed honestly looks like they are hanging landlords out to dry.

Id be very careful about this. IW don't care an ounce.

Just to give some clarification on this I have read the 1998 -2003 act and its amendments through and unless i am missing a section there isnt anything there to allow a private individual to hand over another private individuals Name and Address to another private entity, IW are not covered under the legislation under entities payable to the state equally as the ESB would not be.

Even their topical questions section and i can imagine this has been a very topical question over the last year doesnt have an ounce to say on the matter

right here for anyone who wishes to view

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/FAQ2012/Topical_Data_Proctection_Issues.htm

It just looks as if everyone is hoping it wont pop up or no one challenges it in court, sure they can say they gave no explicit direction on it either way.

You would have to cover it explicitly in your lease and thats the be all and end all of it.

No water protesters

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