No water protesters

murphaph

I'd also include a clause in any lease that the tenant acquiesces to the landlord passing on their details to IW.

listermint

garhjw wrote: »

It's stated in my leases that tenants are liable for all utilities, including water.

OP, you could also send IW the tenants name and they can send a. Registration pack to them.

I hope more landlord do this because when challenged you will find yourself in court. There is nothing in the Water Services Act to cover you and plenty in the Data Protections act of 2008 to find against you.

You cannot just hand over Tenants information to a Private Utility it is illegal. regardless of your feeling pro or against this charge.

Please inform yourself better before giving out advice such as this. There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.


Good luck.

listermint

garhjw wrote: »

I confirmed with the ODPC that it is permissible to pass on a tenants name and address to IW.

When did you do this? and praytell can you detail the correspondence in full and also state where this information is available freely to the public.

tinz18

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And I would just put something in into the lease saying that the tenant needs to supply you with a copy of the documents they complete to register with IW. If someone asks you to remove this bit - they're not the tenant for you. Simples.

In theory this should work but with Irish Water's incompetence it probably would cause a lot of people trouble. For example, I'm a tenant who has no issue with paying for water. I have spent since September trying to register. Never received a pack (because if I had I could've signed up online and taken a screenshot) so tried to register over the phone. System apparently failed the three times I signed up over the phone and I was told to try again. I emailed/ sent in a paper form etc and although over the phone last week they claim I'm on the system since Nov 24th - I have yet to receive any proof of registration (or the form for my bfs medical needs).

It's beyond frustrating but at least my landlady trusts me enough to know I've signed up- if this was in our lease I'd be scuppered and it would be the fault of Irish Water.

Graham

listermint wrote: »

There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.

Any source for the agencies being fined such amounts? I'm struggling to find them.

listermint

Graham wrote: »

Any source for the agencies being fined such amounts? I'm struggling to find them.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/credit-union-private-detectives-fined-10500-over-data-breach-30642829.html

Graham

listermint wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/credit-union-private-detectives-fined-10500-over-data-breach-30642829.html

That's private detectives using subterfuge to illegally obtain information, not quite the same.

The_Morrigan

Folks, I've just deleted a number of posts - can you please stay on topic.

Thanks

Mrs OBumble

tinz18 wrote: »

In theory this should work but with Irish Water's incompetence it probably would cause a lot of people trouble. For example, I'm a tenant who has no issue with paying for water. I have spent since September trying to register. Never received a pack (because if I had I could've signed up online and taken a screenshot) so tried to register over the phone. System apparently failed the three times I signed up over the phone and I was told to try again. I emailed/ sent in a paper form etc and although over the phone last week they claim I'm on the system since Nov 24th - I have yet to receive any proof of registration (or the form for my bfs medical needs).

It's beyond frustrating but at least my landlady trusts me enough to know I've signed up- if this was in our lease I'd be scuppered and it would be the fault of Irish Water.

Ahh, but the potential LL doesn't even need to actually see the paperwork. They just need tenants to believe it's a condition of the lease.

Just having the clause in the lease would be enough to scare off any people who are not going to pay their water charges. And that's all a LL really needs to do.

garhjw

listermint wrote: »

I hope more landlord do this because when challenged you will find yourself in court. There is nothing in the Water Services Act to cover you and plenty in the Data Protections act of 2008 to find against you.

You cannot just hand over Tenants information to a Private Utility it is illegal. regardless of your feeling pro or against this charge.

Please inform yourself better before giving out advice such as this. There have been recent fines of 10,000 to 30,000 per incident handed down as little as 6 months ago for agencies giving our receiving private information illegally.


Good luck.

Maybe get your facts straight before you go running your mouth. I contacted the ODPC by email asking if it s permissible to provide IW with tenants details. I received the following response.

Where are you getting your information from? Either you are a liar or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I think it is likely both in your case.

I'm right and you are wrong. Ha ha ha

From: DPC Info <info@dataprotection.ie>
Date: 20 October 2014 17:05:48 IST
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: ODPC response - 20/10/14


Dear xxxxxx

I refer to your recent email to this Office.

If a pack has not been returned from a particular property then
Irish Water can write to the owners of the property who have NOT replied,
seeking information as to whether the property is occupied / unoccupied and
if occupied then who is the tenant. This Office has advised Irish Water
that NAME ONLY of the tenant should be provided.

I hope this is of assistance to you.


Yours Sincerely

Xxxxxxx
Information Officer
Office of the Data Protection Commissioner
Canal House
Station Road
Portarlington
Co. Laois

Ph: 057 868 4800
E: info@dataprotection.ie
www.dataprotection.ie

listermint

Graham wrote: »

That's private detectives using subterfuge to illegally obtain information, not quite the same.

Not quite the same for sure, but illegally obtaining information none the less. Unless the tenant gives permission to hand it over or the tenant hands it over themselves both IW and the landlord would be held accountable.

garhjw

listermint wrote: »

Not quite the same for sure, but illegally obtaining information none the less. Unless the tenant gives permission to hand it over or the tenant hands it over themselves both IW and the landlord would be held accountable.

Did you read my response? Your wrong AGAIN.

listermint

garhjw wrote: »

Maybe get your facts straight before you go running your mouth. I contacted the ODPC by email asking if it s permissible to provide IW with tenants details. I received the following response.

Where are you getting your information from? Either you are a liar or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I think it is likely both in your case.

I'm right and you are wrong. Ha ha ha

From: DPC Info <info@dataprotection.ie>
Date: 20 October 2014 17:05:48 IST
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: ODPC response - 20/10/14


Dear xxxxxx

I refer to your recent email to this Office.

If a pack has not been returned from a particular property then
Irish Water can write to the owners of the property who have NOT replied,
seeking information as to whether the property is occupied / unoccupied and
if occupied then who is the tenant. This Office has advised Irish Water
that NAME ONLY of the tenant should be provided.

I hope this is of assistance to you.


Yours Sincerely

Xxxxxxx
Information Officer
Office of the Data Protection Commissioner
Canal House
Station Road
Portarlington
Co. Laois

Ph: 057 868 4800
E: info@dataprotection.ie
www.dataprotection.ie

Oh right your information was given to you by some unamed information officer around the same time IW was giving out false information.


Your posts are very aggressive. 'running my mouth'

'ha ha ha'

Are you 12 ?

garhjw

listermint wrote: »

Oh right your information was given to you by some unamed information officer around the same time IW was giving out false information.


Your posts are very aggressive. 'running my mouth'

'ha ha ha'

Are you 12 ?

So your saying I made it up? I'm not going to give out the name of the person in the ODPC.

I'm laughing at you because you are a liar and don't have a clue what you are talking about. You just go on your loonie left rants with no facts to back it up.

Why not contact the ODPC yourself if you don't believe me. However, I suspect you think the government have them under control too. Perhaps they work for Dennis obrien.

No go back to your commie mates, good girl

listermint

garhjw wrote: »

So your saying I made it up? I'm not going to give out the name of the person in the ODPC.

I'm laughing at you because you are a liar and don't have a clue what you are talking about. You just go on your loonie left rants with no facts to back it up.

Why not contact the ODPC yourself if you don't believe me. However, I suspect you think the government have them under control too. Perhaps they work for Dennis obrien.

No go back to your commie mates, good girl

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

The_Morrigan

Listermint, Gar behave yourselves. Both of you could do with watching the tone and interactions you use in this thread.

garhjw

listermint wrote: »

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

I will refer you to the email I received from the ODPC which contradicts what you are saying. I will take their advice as they know what they are talking about.

Graham

listermint wrote: »

You have a ridiculously aggressive post style and i have reported you.

You also need to brush up on your facts, in order to give any information to IW you would have to put this in your lease agreement and make sure tenant has signed it. What you are proposing is illegal.

The email from the ODPC appears to be corroborated by todays Irish Times:



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/when-is-a-deadline-not-a-deadline-and-other-irish-water-questions-answered-1.2088182

Pawwed Rig

I think the relavent word is 'wants'. Is there an onus on the LL to respond?

listermint

Graham wrote: »

The email from the ODPC appears to be corroborated by todays Irish Times:



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/when-is-a-deadline-not-a-deadline-and-other-irish-water-questions-answered-1.2088182

None of this corroborated with current data protection legislation and its amendments since 2008.

And its not like IW to get it all completely wrong exactly the misinformation they were giving out last year.

Id love someone to explain to me how handing over personal information that is not yours to a private utility without that persons explicit consent be it by lease or contract mirrors what is contained in legislation. Unless of course it has been modified recently? Was there some late night Dail sessions I missed honestly looks like they are hanging landlords out to dry.

Id be very careful about this. IW don't care an ounce.


Just to give some clarification on this I have read the 1998 -2003 act and its amendments through and unless i am missing a section there isnt anything there to allow a private individual to hand over another private individuals Name and Address to another private entity, IW are not covered under the legislation under entities payable to the state equally as the ESB would not be.

Even their topical questions section and i can imagine this has been a very topical question over the last year doesnt have an ounce to say on the matter

right here for anyone who wishes to view

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/FAQ2012/Topical_Data_Proctection_Issues.htm

It just looks as if everyone is hoping it wont pop up or no one challenges it in court, sure they can say they gave no explicit direction on it either way.

You would have to cover it explicitly in your lease and thats the be all and end all of it.

Graham

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think the relavent word is 'wants'. Is there an onus on the LL to respond?

I would imagine the landlord 'wants' to not be held liable for his tenants water charges. If that's the case, the landlord and IWs wants appear to be aligned.

listermint wrote: »

None of this corroborated with current data protection legislation and its amendments since 2008.

And its not like IW to get it all completely wrong exactly the misinformation they were giving out last year.

Id love someone to explain to me how handing over personal information that is not yours to a private utility without that persons explicit consent be it by lease or contract mirrors what is contained in legislation. Unless of course it has been modified recently? Was there some late night Dail sessions I missed honestly looks like they are hanging landlords out to dry.

Id be very careful about this. IW don't care an ounce.

Regardless of the IW position, I've no reason to disbelieve an email from the ODPC unless you have more recent contradictory information from the ODPC.

Pawwed Rig

Graham wrote: »

I would imagine the landlord 'wants' to not be held liable for his tenants water charges. If that's the case, the landlord and IWs wants appear to be aligned.

Read the thread. The LL cannot be held liable to his tenants water charges. The same as any utility bill.

Graham

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Read the thread. The LL cannot be held liable to his tenants water charges. The same as any utility bill.

True, all the landlord needs to do is prove he is not 'the occupier'. However you like to dress it up, the easiest way to do this appears to be the provision of the tenants name to IW.

garhjw

listermint wrote: »

None of this corroborated with current data protection legislation and its amendments since 2008.

And its not like IW to get it all completely wrong exactly the misinformation they were giving out last year.

Id love someone to explain to me how handing over personal information that is not yours to a private utility without that persons explicit consent be it by lease or contract mirrors what is contained in legislation. Unless of course it has been modified recently? Was there some late night Dail sessions I missed honestly looks like they are hanging landlords out to dry.

Id be very careful about this. IW don't care an ounce.


Just to give some clarification on this I have read the 1998 -2003 act and its amendments through and unless i am missing a section there isnt anything there to allow a private individual to hand over another private individuals Name and Address to another private entity, IW are not covered under the legislation under entities payable to the state equally as the ESB would not be.

Even their topical questions section and i can imagine this has been a very topical question over the last year doesnt have an ounce to say on the matter

right here for anyone who wishes to view

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/FAQ2012/Topical_Data_Proctection_Issues.htm

It just looks as if everyone is hoping it wont pop up or no one challenges it in court, sure they can say they gave no explicit direction on it either way.

You would have to cover it explicitly in your lease and thats the be all and end all of it.

How do you explain the mail I received from the ODPC? They know more about this sort of thing than you do.

Are they lying to us?

Seriously, just put your hands up and admit when you are either wrong or lying.

The_Morrigan

garhjw wrote: »

How do you explain the mail I received from the ODPC? They know more about this sort of thing than you do.

Are they lying to us?

Seriously, just put your hands up and admit when you are either wrong or lying.

Will you stop accusing posters of being liars. You already have sanctions against you in this thread.

/Mod.

murphaph

What a total and utter shambles this whole IW thing is. It seems that IW will NOT be allowed to cut off water to non-payers (according to that IT article) and that IW will instead seek to get a charge added to a property....BUT if a property is rented, the owner is not liable, so effectively IW will have absolutely no sanction which it can apply in the case of non-paying tenant customers. Only in Ireland.