Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

Mrs OBumble · 16-12-2013 2:41pm #1

What's the deal with water charges: are they going to be applied to tenants or to landlords?

We've a thread over in Work and Jobs where someone says it's tenants, and that we'll being billed from October 2014, based on this article: http://www.thejournal.ie/water-charges-january-2014-report-577245-Aug2012/

But I'm not convinced: how exactly is this going to work? (or have I been living under a rock and the whole rest of the country knows already???)

Scortho · 16-12-2013 2:48pm

Surely it's the same way as the tenant is liable for the electricity bill as opposed to the landlord?

ted1 · 16-12-2013 2:50pm

Tenants pay, just like any other utility.

NinjaTruncs · 16-12-2013 2:51pm

As above does your landlord pay your gas, electricity or bins if not they won't be paying the water charges.

Uriel. · 16-12-2013 2:51pm

I'd agree with the poster above. I can't fathom how anyone would expect the Landlord to pay. In normal circumstances electricity, bins, telephone, internet etc. are paid by the tenant. Water charges will be the same.

L1011 · 16-12-2013 2:52pm

Cannot see how a landlord could be considered liable for something where usage depends entirely on the tenant, unless they're already providing unmetered heat/power.

Mrs OBumble · 16-12-2013 5:02pm

Ok, so on move-in day, I take a reading from my water meter (which is where exactly? it sure ain't installed yet) and I get billed for the amount I use from that day. I'm fine with that, for a new tenancy.

But over in W&J, someone (who I think does know) is posting that charges apply from October, but the first bill won't arrive until Jan 2015. Mmm, what happens if I move house i that time? What if I haven't signed up with Irish Water - are they really going to sign up the whole country in 10 months????

The_Conductor · 16-12-2013 5:50pm

Hi Mrs O'Bumble-

Your water meter will be outside your property, probably under a new manhole/cover like this:

In some cases, there may be an inline meter installed internally (its suggested that in some properties this would be in the kitchen- no idea where thats coming from though).

The proposals (and they are proposals)- are that billing would commence by the 1st of October 2014. First bills would issue in Q1 2015.

At the outset there would be metered and unmetered properties. Metered properties get an allowance of free water (yet to be decided how much) before being charged for the amount they consume (and a standing charge to cover connection and the price of the meter would apply on top of all of this)).

At the very beginning as few as 1 in 5 properties may have their meters installed- IWB think it could take up to 3 years to get meters installed in all applicable properties.

There are some property types (apartments etc) where meters may never be installed- and instead either a central meter would apply- charged to the management company- or the unmetered rate would apply to the residents of the units.

What the unmetered rate is- has yet to be determined. What the metered rate is- has yet to be determined. What the free allowance is- has yet to be determined.

The bill that went through the Oireachtas three weeks ago- allows for Irish Water to disconnect business customers who fail to pay their water bills- but crucially, it does not give them the power to disconnect domestic users.

Soooo- commencement date is planned for the 1st of October 2014 (subject to approval). The first bill is planned to be a quarterly bill for Q4 2013, paid in arrears, in Q1 2015.

How much you will pay- and whether you'll even have a meter at this stage- is up in the air. It would appear the vast bulk of customers will be on flatrate unmetered billing (presumably based on the number of bedrooms in the property- or some such mechanism) rather than metered, when the billing commences.

IWB- need to speed up the installation- but have admitted it may be fully three years from commencement date, before all applicable homes have their meters- not an ideal situation.

On top of this- Bord Gais- who are running IWB- were sold last week- so thats an added uncertainty into the equation.

For consumers of water (all of us) there should be no change in service/supply- as IWB have already signed 20 year maintenance contracts with the local authorities who are currently supplying water to us end users.

Of immediate issue- is the unacceptable number of supplies of unsafe drinking water (as of today there are 4 separate boil notices in effect in 2 counties).

Anyhow- hope this helps.

The_Conductor

Victor · 16-12-2013 8:55pm

I imagine if there is a meter, the meter user will have to pay. Otherwise it is a matter of a somewhat fixed charge or apportionment of a shared meter.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

based on this article: http://www.thejournal.ie/water-charges-january-2014-report-577245-Aug2012/

How current is that article? Today's date is at the top of the page, but there appears to be no date on the article.

The_Conductor wrote: »

On top of this- Bord Gais- who are running IWB- were sold last week-

Only Bord Gáis Energy was sold, not Bord Gáis Networks.

Scortho · 16-12-2013 9:10pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Hi Mrs O'Bumble-

Your water meter will be outside your property, probably under a new manhole/cover like this:

In some cases, there may be an inline meter installed internally (its suggested that in some properties this would be in the kitchen- no idea where thats coming from though).

The proposals (and they are proposals)- are that billing would commence by the 1st of October 2014. First bills would issue in Q1 2015.

At the outset there would be metered and unmetered properties. Metered properties get an allowance of free water (yet to be decided how much) before being charged for the amount they consume (and a standing charge to cover connection and the price of the meter would apply on top of all of this)).

At the very beginning as few as 1 in 5 properties may have their meters installed- IWB think it could take up to 3 years to get meters installed in all applicable properties.

There are some property types (apartments etc) where meters may never be installed- and instead either a central meter would apply- charged to the management company- or the unmetered rate would apply to the residents of the units.

What the unmetered rate is- has yet to be determined. What the metered rate is- has yet to be determined. What the free allowance is- has yet to be determined.

The bill that went through the Oireachtas three weeks ago- allows for Irish Water to disconnect business customers who fail to pay their water bills- but crucially, it does not give them the power to disconnect domestic users.

Soooo- commencement date is planned for the 1st of October 2014 (subject to approval). The first bill is planned to be a quarterly bill for Q4 2013, paid in arrears, in Q1 2015.

How much you will pay- and whether you'll even have a meter at this stage- is up in the air. It would appear the vast bulk of customers will be on flatrate unmetered billing (presumably based on the number of bedrooms in the property- or some such mechanism) rather than metered, when the billing commences.

IWB- need to speed up the installation- but have admitted it may be fully three years from commencement date, before all applicable homes have their meters- not an ideal situation.

On top of this- Bord Gais- who are running IWB- were sold last week- so thats an added uncertainty into the equation.

For consumers of water (all of us) there should be no change in service/supply- as IWB have already signed 20 year maintenance contracts with the local authorities who are currently supplying water to us end users.

Of immediate issue- is the unacceptable number of supplies of unsafe drinking water (as of today there are 4 separate boil notices in effect in 2 counties).

Anyhow- hope this helps.

The_Conductor

As your a mod you should use your powers and make it as a sticky as I can see it getting asked a good bit in the next few months.

newbie2013 · 16-12-2013 11:09pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

How much you will pay- and whether you'll even have a meter at this stage- is up in the air. It would appear the vast bulk of customers will be on flatrate unmetered billing (presumably based on the number of bedrooms in the property- or some such mechanism) rather than metered, when the billing commences.

I know a guy who lives in a 6bed house all on his own. He'll shi1te a brick when he hears this lol

The_Conductor · 18-12-2013 7:46am

newbie2013 wrote: »

I know a guy who lives in a 6bed house all on his own. He'll shi1te a brick when he hears this lol

Hes made a lifestyle choice. His choice is already being taxed via the property tax- until such time as verifiable metering is on his property- he'll just have another tax associated with his lifestyle choice.

Ps- in my opinion- anyone living in a 6 bed house on their own, is nuts.

ABajaninCork · 19-12-2013 3:09am

I thought the water charge is fixed rate for next year, as the meters haven't been installed yet? Or am I missing something??

In any case - I would assume the tenant pays as they will for the other utilities...

DeadlyH83 · 19-12-2013 1:33pm

What happens to the local council workers who work in waterworks when Irish water take over?

Victor · 19-12-2013 5:15pm

DeadlyH83 wrote: »

What happens to the local council workers who work in waterworks when Irish water take over?

They will continue to work for the council for the moment. In the case of Dublin City Council (who supply several of the adjacent councils), it will be 12 years - it may vary with other councils. Irish Water will pay the council for (most of) its costs. After the 12 years, they will transfer to Irish Water.

Some individual staff may staff with the council by transferring to other departments, depending on what happens in the normal course of events over the next 12 years.

newbie2013 · 19-12-2013 11:55pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Hes made a lifestyle choice. His choice is already being taxed via the property tax- until such time as verifiable metering is on his property- he'll just have another tax associated with his lifestyle choice.

Ps- in my opinion- anyone living in a 6 bed house on their own, is nuts.

Built during the boom, missed out on a sale right before it busted but the one good thing he has, he's mortgage free. He was selling it and had plans to build another more eco efficient house. With the new legislation coming into force next year, he is now in 2 minds on what to do because he wont be able to build it self build like he done with this one. He will get hard now with taxes and water charges.

DeadlyH83 · 18-01-2014 11:41am

A good source tells me water charges are going to be somewhere between 300 - 350 euros per average household.

Victor · 18-01-2014 11:42pm

DeadlyH83 wrote: »

A good source tells me water charges are going to be somewhere between 300 - 350 euros per average household.

What is that source? The man down the pub?

For all councils, in 2013, water services cost €711m, while income was €248m (predominantly from commercial users), leaving a €463 million deficit.

There were 1,654,208 households in 2011. If those households picked up the entire tab for the balance, it would work out at €279 per household. However (a) the government has said it will continue to subsidise water services (b) there is the suggestion that commercial users will have to pay more and (c) second properties are likely to have to pay a sanding charge, so the figure is likely to be lower.

mcgragger · 19-01-2014 10:30am

DeadlyH83 wrote: »

A good source tells me water charges are going to be somewhere between 300 - 350 euros per average household.

per year? or bi monthly?

ABajaninCork · 19-01-2014 2:27pm

mcgragger wrote: »

per year? or bi monthly?

I would imagine it would be a yearly charge. With the option to pay monthly or quarterly.

I wonder if you get discount for paying yearly or D/D?

mcgragger · 19-01-2014 2:44pm

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I would imagine it would be a yearly charge. With the option to pay monthly or quarterly.

I wonder if you get discount for paying yearly or D/D?

Probably not. In the end we will all be paying a lot more than 350 a year. Ive no doubt about that

The_Conductor · 19-01-2014 6:42pm

I'd consider the quoted figures as seriously circumspect- especially given the stated aim of replacing and upgrading the network to the tune of 18 billion over the next 15 years. The reason water is being offloaded, is because of the massive investment needed in it- and as an independent entity- the cost of this will be borne directly by users, like it or lump it.

ted1 · 19-01-2014 8:04pm

I imagine it'll be along the lines of 1c per litre which is more or less the commercial rate. Maybe with a tan dig charge of 10 euro a month.

Victor · 19-01-2014 10:43pm

ted1 wrote: »

I imagine it'll be along the lines of 1c per litre which is more or less the commercial rate. Maybe with a tan dig charge of 10 euro a month.

In Dublin, in 2012, the rate was €1.99 per 1,000 litres or €0.00199 or 5 litres to the cent.

ted1 · 19-01-2014 10:47pm

Victor wrote: »

In Dublin, in 2012, the rate was €1.99 per 1,000 litres or €0.00199 or 5 litres to the cent.

I guess different councils charge different rates

The_Conductor · 19-01-2014 10:55pm

Victor wrote: »

In Dublin, in 2012, the rate was €1.99 per 1,000 litres or €0.00199 or 5 litres to the cent.

Is that commercial rates?
If so- its already been stated that commercial rates have nothing whatsoever to do with residential rates.

Do you know what the horrible thing about all of this is?

The regulator is guaranteeing Irish Water a particular level of income.
If people are thrifty and economical with their water usage- Irish Water have the right to increase rates, simply because their income level is not as high as they are allowed by the regulator.

Its the same premise operated for Bord Gais. They are allowed a particular income level. They can argue a higher level based on, for example, an increase in international prices. This has zero baring on their operational costs- and even in straightened times, such as these- they are allowed significant increases in prices per unit- to compensate them for people not using as much as they might have done.

So- heads they win, tails they win- and one way or the other- we, as consumers, loose.

Where else on earth is the regulator allowed operate like this- they haven't one iota of concern for the consumer.

By the way- there is a public consultation on pricing- and vis-a-vis gas and electricity prices- annually (The ESB- or whatever the hell they're called these days, aren't governed by this anymore, as they are no longer viewed as a monopoly supplier)..........

Only in Ireland.

ABajaninCork · 19-01-2014 11:35pm

I suppose we'd better be thankful this isn't the UK. YET!!

None of the privatised companies are British-owned - they're mostly French. And they seem to charge what they like on a whim, despite the presence of a regulator which is OFWAT. Some households are still on rates. Some are on the meters. And it isn't by a company by company basis either. It seems to vary from house to house. For instance - I am still on a rate at home. But my friend in the next borough has a meter. She pays £60pm for her water. But there's none of this crip crap about cutting people off for weeks due to council incompetence which is what happened to us on the Northside of Cork City during one of the coldest and wettest winters in recent memory. The companies know that if consumers are cut off for more than four hours, then compensation had to be paid. The water quality is alleged to be better as well. (I dunno about that! :P)

OTOH. Perhaps with the advent of Irish Water, we can dream about a better service. But there again - this is Ireland!

maggiebb · 25-01-2014 7:03pm

Like any other bill gas, electricity, internet. Tenants will pay water charges.

The_Conductor · 25-01-2014 8:30pm

maggiebb wrote: »

Like any other bill gas, electricity, internet. Tenants will pay water charges.

And why wouldn't they? Its a utility, like any other.
If you were in the UK- you, as tenant, would also be liable for council tax (the Irish equivalent, the LPT, is currently paid by landlord's- however, as the government has decreed it is not a tax deductible expense (as it is in other countries where its payable by the landlord)- its probable that we'll go down the road of making it a residential tax, akin to the UK system- sooner or later).

Seanachai · 31-01-2014 11:16am

The_Conductor wrote: »

And why wouldn't they? Its a utility, like any other.
If you were in the UK- you, as tenant, would also be liable for council tax (the Irish equivalent, the LPT, is currently paid by landlord's- however, as the government has decreed it is not a tax deductible expense (as it is in other countries where its payable by the landlord)- its probable that we'll go down the road of making it a residential tax, akin to the UK system- sooner or later).

Hopefully they bring in three or four more stealth taxes so the complacent lump that seems to constitute most of the population might get their blood up enough to at least engage in mass civil disobedience. I use very little water and I resent the thought of being charged a flat rate. I could happily survive with the mains disconnected , but they'll prob make it illegal not to pay the charges either way. Haven't drank tap water in five years , can shower at the gym and can wash cutlery etc with filtered rain water at the drain outside. **** them.

Muahahaha · 04-02-2014 3:40pm

Anyone know if Irish Water will come under the Sale of Goods Act ? if so as soon as they send me a bill I'll be taking them to the Small Claims Court for selling me goods not of a merchantable quality.

It'll only cost me €25, be well worth it to see what excuse they try to put on undrinkable water.

ted1 · 04-02-2014 4:42pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Anyone know if Irish Water will come under the Sale of Goods Act ? if so as soon as they send me a bill I'll be taking them to the Small Claims Court for selling me goods not of a merchantable quality.

It'll only cost me €25, be well worth it to see what excuse they try to put on undrinkable water.

bear in mind. a toilet flush uses 10 liters, a shower user about 50 liters and a bath uses about 80 liters. a washing machine uses 23 litres a dishwasher uses 14 litres

you'll drink about 2 liters. so in the grand scheme of things i can't see you winning case.

but if you did what would you expect to win? its called a small claims court for a reason.

kleefarr · 23-02-2014 3:35am

Is it really €85M for consultancy fees before we have even started?

The_Conductor · 23-02-2014 11:36am

kleefarr wrote: »

Is it really €85M for consultancy fees before we have even started?

Didn't someone say thats what they've spent so far- their intended expenditure is €180m before they get up and running- and they've organised to borrow this, at commercial rates, from the NPRF.

L1011 · 25-02-2014 11:57am

People seem to assume that its been spent entirely on reports and biscuits - "consultancy" is going to include the capital costs of ther IT systems almost certainly.

Victor · 25-02-2014 3:44pm

Let's keep this thread within the remit of Accommodation & Property.

Moderator

Gatling · 25-02-2014 3:53pm

Has anyone heard that in rental houses / apartments landlords will be responsible for paying the watercharges??

ted1 · 25-02-2014 3:56pm

Gatling wrote: »

Has anyone heard that in rental houses / apartments landlords will be responsible for paying the watercharges??

why would we hear that? did you hear it? its a utility like gas and electricity, and as such lies with the tenant.

Gatling · 25-02-2014 4:10pm

ted1 wrote: »

why would we hear that? did you hear it? its a utility like gas and electricity, and as such lies with the tenant.

I know ,

It was posted in the the thread about farcical state of renting in dublin a few days back ,never got around to posting it here ,

Someone reckons water charges and the broadcasting charge will only be paid by landlords ,
First I heard that idea

The_Morrigan · 25-02-2014 4:15pm

Gatling wrote: »

I know ,

It was posted in the the thread about farcical state of renting in dublin a few days back ,never got around to posting it here ,

Someone reckons water charges and the broadcasting charge will only be paid by landlords ,
First I heard that idea

I wonder is it to allow for the landlord to pay for when the property is not occupied by tenants? The landlord is ultimately responsible for any charges incurred between lettings, be that gas, electric and now water charges, but when tenants are using the utilities they are responsible for the charges.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 25-02-2014 4:17pm

It specifically states in my lease that we'll be paying the charges as tenants. Can't see landlords taking in the extra cost. Why would they?

Victor · 25-02-2014 7:33pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

It specifically states in my lease that we'll be paying the charges as tenants. Can't see landlords taking in the extra cost. Why would they?

Because they will have to pay the charges when the property is vacant anyway.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 25-02-2014 9:22pm

Well they would have to do the same for electricity and gas standing charges whether the property is rented or not. I know if very few landlords that pay their tenants gas or electricity bills.

ted1 · 25-02-2014 10:09pm

Victor wrote: »

Because they will have to pay the charges when the property is vacant anyway.

unless there's a leak there shouldn't be any usage when its empty.

landlords already pay for elec and Gas which are used when the house is empty

Victor · 26-02-2014 5:58am

ted1 wrote: »

unless there's a leak there shouldn't be any usage when its empty.

Broadcast television leaks are more a feature than a bug.

For water there would be standing charges.

TedStriker1982 · 28-03-2014 10:25am

I think whether the landlord pays would also depend upon whether Irish Water has the right to repossess the property for non-payment, like the councils (technically) do for those not paying rates and property charges levied by them. It is the case elsewhere in Europe even where water utilities are run by private companies. Haven't seen anything definitive on that yet, but new to these boards....

olliesgirl55 · 31-03-2014 3:52pm

ted1 wrote: »

why would we hear that? did you hear it? its a utility like gas and electricity, and as such lies with the tenant.

The only way I can see tenants having to pay for water charge is if each flat in a building has its own water supply. Or if a flat rate be issued by the company for a specific flat based on size. I live in a tiny studio and have no problem with paying for water I just don't want to be overcharged since there are other flats in the buildings larger in size and more occupants. Landlords have already passed the property tax and the tax payments on to tenants in the form of rent increase. My landlord also charges me 6 euro a a week for using the bins and I know if I was in a council flat id be paying 19 euro a month which is less.
Rant over

L1011 · 02-04-2014 9:51pm

olliesgirl55 wrote: »

The only way I can see tenants having to pay for water charge is if each flat in a building has its own water supply.

People do rent full houses too.

Additionally, unmeterable properties will have flat rates which are still connected to the tenant using water - so there really isn't any situation where they won't be expected to pay.

snubbleste · 24-04-2014 8:22pm

Richard Bruton referred to this 'conversation charge' as a tax today. Therefore it is a now okay to call it a tax :cool:

Victor · 28-04-2014 6:57pm

snubbleste wrote: »

Richard Bruton referred to this 'conversation charge' as a tax today. Therefore it is a now okay to call it a tax :cool:

Go on, explain that in the context of Accommodation & Property, not Politics.

Moderator

Muahahaha · 29-04-2014 2:44pm

Has anyone heard the leak that came out of Labour about Irish Water ? Apparently the govt is subsidising Irish Water to the tune of around €400 per year per household which means the real cost of delivering your water is around €600 per household and that's what it is expected to cost us when they privatise it, around €600 per household. With that and the property tax households will be getting hit with nearly €1,000 in extra taxes, pretty frightening in a time when wages are static.

Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

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