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Irish Soldiers who deserted during WWII to join the British Army & Starvation order

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Comments

  • #152
    neilled
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    I lived in Newbridge for a while a few years back and you would regularly see a gent sporting British WW2 medals and nobody ever said anything to him. You do not see this very often in Dublin, but then again we do not live in a very militaristic society

    I recall this old gent as well. I think he had a wheelchair or zimmer and you'd see him around the whitewater at the weekends? Always meant to have a chat with him but never got around to it.


  • #153
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Which royals, and who was Karl Edward?:confused:

    My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
    the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .

    Charles Edward or Karl Eduard was English but was forced by Victoria to take over the family's kingdom in Sachse Coburg Gotha. though he did not fight the Brits in WW1 he was labelled a traitor. It ruined his life and he was not invited to cousin Elisabeth's cornation in 1952.

    essentially there were very close ties between the two countries and both world wars were something of brother fighting brother.


  • #154
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

    You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"



    Irish servicemen 'airbrushed out of history,' says D-Day veteran




    By Emma Blain

    Sunday June 06 2004

    AN IRISH survivor of the D-Day landings, now a Franciscan friar, spoke for one of the first times last week of his bitter disappointment at the indifference in his homeland to the sacrifices made by thousands of his countrymen in World War II. Brother Columbanus, now aged 79, was shocked at the negative reception he and his fellow servicemen received at the hands of their compatriots on his return.
    He returned from France a year after the end of the war, where, as a skinny 19-year-old known as Sean Deegan, he had played his part in one of the greatest military invasions in history.
    "The people back home didn't realise what it meant. To them, you were just a renegade who had gone off and was fighting for the Brits," he told me. "I was a soldier of fortune, not a political soldier. When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause," Deegan said, as he prepared to return to Normandy for this weekend's 60th anniversary commemorations.

    But he also says this
    Like many men, the young Sean had signed up because he "was going for the adventure and the money". After D-Day, he rode right through Europe: "When we broke through, that's when I had a ball".
    But soon he and his comrades were to realise the true horror of war, when they encountered the infamous concentration camps in Belsen and Auschwitz.
    He says: "That, to me, was my turning point in the war: that I'd been fighting an evil. Up until that point it had been a game."





    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-servicemen-airbrushed-out-of-history-says-dday-veteran-481016.html

    Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

    There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

    Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

    My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the Somme in WWI.

    In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?


  • #155
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    There is a different attitude towards war and armies in general in this country. this is one of many reasons why people do not care about this who fought in WW2.
    we tend to be less militaristic that the the Brits. They wear their poppy and celebrate the military. after all, given that they are involved in a war every few years its more a part of their lives. even our military tend to be more like civilians.

    some people here feel we lost out by not participating in WW2, but I for one am glad that I grew up having two grandfathers and that our cities were not destroyed by bombings. Would Dubliners really appreciate something like the Dublin and Monaghan bombings on a grand scale?


  • #156
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    CDfm wrote: »
    I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

    You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"





    But he also says this


    Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

    There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

    Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

    My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the some in WWI.

    In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?

    within that the last 20 years more interest has been shown to those who fought for our former colonial masters. you had similar situations in other countries. its still taboo in France for members of Charlemagne to display their German war decorations. they said they joined up to fight communism. others say they served the Nazis and were traitors although Europe spent the proceeding 40 years fighting communism.

    what contribution did Irishmen in the British army make to Ireland, their home country? European conflicts has nothing to do with us.
    Irishmen also fought for the glory of France and against communism in Indochina. let their voice be heard.


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  • #157
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,125 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
    the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .
    Charles Edward or Karl Eduard was English but was forced by Victoria to take over the family's kingdom in Sachse Coburg Gotha. though he did not fight the Brits in WW1 he was labelled a traitor. It ruined his life and he was not invited to cousin Elisabeth's cornation in 1952.
    essentially there were very close ties between the two countries and both world wars were something of brother fighting brother.
    There were close ties between the royal family and their German relatives, but the same couldn't be said for the rest of the British population. At that time, the general population would have been in no doubt that they were British, with the trappings of the Empire all around them. I think the name change took place because the hierarchy didn't want the public to be reminded of the royal family's German connection. During the time leading up to the Russian Revolution, the UK authorities were becoming increasingly aware of possible threats to the status-quo, from anarchists and other groups intent on changing the existing systems.
    Fuinseog wrote: »
    within that the last 20 years more interest has been shown to those who fought for our former colonial masters. you had similar situations in other countries. its still taboo in France for members of Charlemagne to display their German war decorations. they said they joined up to fight communism. others say they served the Nazis and were traitors although Europe spent the proceeding 40 years fighting communism.
    what contribution did Irishmen in the British army make to Ireland, their home country? European conflicts has nothing to do with us.
    Irishmen also fought for the glory of France and against communism in Indochina. let their voice be heard.
    Ireland being part of Europe, I don't know how anyone can say that European conflicts have nothing to do with us. Irish people have been fighting in European wars for centuries, and not just on the side of the British.
    Ireland suffered the consequences of WW2 even though it was neutral. Certainly Ireland didn't get the crap bombed out of it, but there were huge problems with importing goods and rationing. There was an “Emergency” after all.
    Had the allies lost, Ireland would have been swallowed up by the Third Reich, and no Irish person would have had the choice to opt out on the grounds that it was nothing to do with them.


  • #158
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I can't see any real evidence of pro German behavior with the exception of the IRA campaign.

    Interesting that you mention France, Alsace-Lorraine was a disputed territory which now part of France. It was annexed by Germany in 1871 & France in 1918 so you may have had people who were from there being "conflicted" over their loyalties.

    Post independence , Ireland still had a King and Ireland's independence constitutionally "evolved" .

    The Treaty Ports were occupied until 1938 , a strategic interest by Britain following WWI's submarine warfare experience.

    Liverpool , Manchester, Kilburn, Cricklewood had large Irish populations too. So we had connections and a steady stream of emigration.

    That's not taking into account people who were ambivalent to the new state or felt loyal to Britain.

    So what do we know of those type of factors ???


  • #159
    A.Tomas
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    CDfm wrote: »
    I don't want to be too harsh as some of these guys were probably like Cathal O'Shannon who died recently and fought in the war as part of the British forces.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75072637

    You also have Sean Deegan/Brother Colombanus in Mount Mellery and he talks of his motivations in this article including his joy of being trained on a Harley Davidson & "When we went to Germany, we found out it was a worthwhile cause,"





    But he also says this


    Now I do understand that there was a bit of a conflict too, newly independent country, and all the rest of that, but I don't believe the articles or the radio show are portraying it correctly.

    There are, of course, two traditions on this island and there are grey area's too.

    Its a bit like a history of transition & while I may be a bit sceptical , it may not be as simple as all that.

    My Dads father was in the War of Independence and his brother died in the Somme in WWI.

    In other words, if there was some type of amnesty , what are the mitigating circumstances ?




    I believe that Cathal O'Shannon served in Burma with the RAF and stayed their after the war. So Nazis?


    I wonder though, are the Irish who fought against Franco tended to be believers in Republicanism/democracy. And they were no fans of British militarism/imperialism.

    Are they airbrushed, etc.? I don't think these people should take the lack of military parades personally.


    The Friar says that people just saw him as someone who went away for adventure. Well ... he did! It was worthwhile of course.


    Irishmen who died and fought in foreign armies are commemorated every year. I wish these campaigners would stop telling lies.


  • #160
    A.Tomas
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    CDfm wrote: »
    I can't see any real evidence of pro German behavior with the exception of the IRA campaign.

    Interesting that you mention France, Alsace-Lorraine was a disputed territory which now part of France. It was annexed by Germany in 1871 & France in 1918 so you may have had people who were from there being "conflicted" over their loyalties.

    Post independence , Ireland still had a King and Ireland's independence constitutionally "evolved" .

    The Treaty Ports were occupied until 1938 , a strategic interest by Britain following WWI's submarine warfare experience.

    Liverpool , Manchester, Kilburn, Cricklewood had large Irish populations too. So we had connections and a steady stream of emigration.

    That's not taking into account people who were ambivalent to the new state or felt loyal to Britain.

    So what do we know of those type of factors ???



    Also, the IRA wanted help from the Soviets. (They went there first I believe!)



    "in his efforts to secure weapons and/or finance for the IRA, Russell was to travel abroad five times. Once to the Soviet Union, three times to the United States and once to Germany. "

    from NGA.ie, also

    "In his dealings with the Germans, Russell sought the release of Frank Ryan from Burgos Prison in Spain. Ryan was then the most prominent IRA man still in captivity following his leading role in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. Ryan was released and arrived in Berlin on August 4th 1940. He was in poor health having received repeated severe beatings in Burgos for refusing to give the Fascist salute."


  • #161
    Belfast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?


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  • #162
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,125 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Belfast wrote: »
    What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

    They would have probably kept a low profile.


  • #163
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Belfast wrote: »
    What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

    I doubt the low profile would have happened. They would have been hugely useful to the british army during an invasion, traitors and collaborators always are. The Germans used such people with some great success in their occupation of europe.


  • #164
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

    Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

    I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

    Is there a statue of DeValera or WT Cosgrave in any park. There is one of Sean Russell.

    The "Emergency" was our sovereignty test as a nation too.

    Given that our bunch is relatively low key , it is sort of a cultural difference that the deserters are drawing attention to themselves.


  • #165
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    Belfast wrote: »
    What would the Irish army deserters have done in Britain invade Ireland during WWII?

    shot the Irish 'traitors' who resisted them.


  • #166
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    CDfm wrote: »
    It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

    Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

    I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

    Is there a statue of DeValera or WT Cosgrave in any park. There is one of Sean Russell.

    The "Emergency" was our sovereignty test as a nation too.

    Given that our bunch is relatively low key , it is sort of a cultural difference that the deserters are drawing attention to themselves.


    I believe there is a branch of the British legion in this country. they hold their November services in protestant churches.


  • #167
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    A.Tomas wrote: »
    Also, the IRA wanted help from the Soviets. (They went there first I believe!)



    "in his efforts to secure weapons and/or finance for the IRA, Russell was to travel abroad five times. Once to the Soviet Union, three times to the United States and once to Germany. "

    from NGA.ie, also

    "In his dealings with the Germans, Russell sought the release of Frank Ryan from Burgos Prison in Spain. Ryan was then the most prominent IRA man still in captivity following his leading role in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. Ryan was released and arrived in Berlin on August 4th 1940. He was in poor health having received repeated severe beatings in Burgos for refusing to give the Fascist salute."

    O Shannon helped liberate Burma from the Japs so that it could be British again and its people enslaved again. hardly a noble cause to pursue.


  • #168
    neilled
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    CDfm wrote: »
    It is interesting that the words "low profile" are being used here.

    Whenever 1916 is celebrated it is as if it is hi-jacked by extremists and not official state celebrations.

    I do not know if there is an equivalent to the British Legion for Irish Soldiers.

    There are three veterans organisations operating on Island. ONE, the national organisation of ex servicemen (and women) is open to those who served in the Defence Forces in a full or part time capacity, then you have IUNVA, the Irish United Nations Veterans Association obviously UN service is a requisite and finally you have the Royal British Legion who have a branch here and a full time office. These organisations work together for various commemorative events - such as the national day of commemoration in july, armistice day events in november including the german commemoration at the military cemetery, glencree.


  • #169
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    O Shannon helped liberate Burma from the Japs so that it could be British again and its people enslaved again. hardly a noble cause to pursue.

    They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.


  • #170
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.

    But since the British left is has become a bastion of freedom and democracy.......hasn't it?


  • #171
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,125 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    My spelling of his name is not 100% but he had an English and German name.
    the English royal family was largely German and had to change their name from Battenberg to Mountbatten around WW1. I cannot remember what they were before Windsor. even today you see the motto 'ich dien' .

    I missed this bit earlier.

    Ich Dien appeared as a motto centuries before there were any Germans in the royal family, and was "nicked" after a battle. The Black Prince obviously took a fancy to it, so decided to use it himself.
    Ich dien German, meaning ‘I serve’; the motto of the Prince of Wales, adopted with the crest of ostrich feathers after the battle of Crécy (1346), from John of Luxembourg, King of Bohemia, who was killed in the battle.

    The motto is spelt ich diene on the tomb of the Black Prince, Edward Prince of Wales, at the time of his burial at Canterbury in 1376.

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O214-Ichdien.html


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  • #172
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    perhaps another reason why these servicemen are not popular in Ireland is our recent past. given the atrocity of Bloody Sunday in 1972 any Irish man who served in the paras and were to proudly wear the beret in public would be shunned.
    there also seems to be a lack of IRA veteran associations in Britain.
    The IRA murdered civilians, the RAF murdered civilians in their bombing of German cities. C'est la guerre.


  • #173
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    They were hardly basking in their freedom under Japanese rule. Reference Kalagong for example.

    no indeed. neither were they under British rule. they would probably prefer a home grown tyrant to a foreign one.


  • #174
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,125 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    no indeed. neither were they under British rule. they would probably prefer a home grown tyrant to a foreign one.

    The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.


  • #175
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.

    thez exploited these countries for they all they were worth. the natives were treated as slaves. while the Brits did not butcher the natives their treatment of them as second class citizens is not praiseworthy.


  • #176
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    The British ran these far-flung countries as businesses, and it wouldn't have been cost-effective to butcher the work-force on a whim, which is what the Japanese were doing during their occupation.

    As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

    This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

    After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back :D


  • #177
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,125 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    CDfm wrote: »
    As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

    This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

    After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back :D

    After what's happened in recent years, I've a sneaky feeling that even if the money stayed in Ireland, the politicians here would have pissed it away.:(


  • #178
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    neilled wrote: »
    There are three veterans organisations operating on Island. ONE, the national organisation of ex servicemen (and women) is open to those who served in the Defence Forces in a full or part time capacity, then you have IUNVA, the Irish United Nations Veterans Association obviously UN service is a requisite and finally you have the Royal British Legion who have a branch here and a full time office. These organisations work together for various commemorative events - such as the national day of commemoration in july, armistice day events in november including the german commemoration at the military cemetery, glencree.

    Doesn't it seem odd that this is being played out in public without involving Irish Veterans organisations.

    Does anyone know what their views are ?


  • #179
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    CDfm wrote: »
    As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

    This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

    After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back :D

    Volume II of "A New History of Ireland" from Oxford talks bout this during the 13th/14th century detailing how the "Irish Roll" was used to among other things finance the 100 year war. I could be wrong on this but I believe that it's in last quarter of 19th century that Ireland ceases to be a net contributor to "Imperial treasury". No doubt it ties in also with the Land Acts and tenant purchases as well perhaps?


  • #180
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    CDfm wrote: »
    As a side issue , I read somewhere (probably something BriantheBard sent me or posted) that pre WWI the outflows of money from Ireland were greater than the inflows from Britain.

    This had begun to change with the introduction of the Welfare State , old age pensions etc in Britain -so economically independence came with an "economic" cost.

    After 800 years of paying thru the nose and finally when we were just about to get something back :D
    dubhthach wrote: »
    Volume II of "A New History of Ireland" from Oxford talks bout this during the 13th/14th century detailing how the "Irish Roll" was used to among other things finance the 100 year war. I could be wrong on this but I believe that it's in last quarter of 19th century that Ireland ceases to be a net contributor to "Imperial treasury". No doubt it ties in also with the Land Acts and tenant purchases as well perhaps?

    I think we discussed this here Post 65


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  • #181
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I didn't want to sidetrack the thread.

    I do wonder how the Irish Veteran's Organisation's and serving soldiers in Ireland see it.

    Normally, the Military handle their own justice but the scale of the desertions was vast. Pre war Irelands army was circa 10,000 and on completion 40,000.

    What is the military history ????

    By not declaring war on Germany , we did not have to bear the cost.I mean, Britain didn't hand over the Punjab and or any goldmines from South Africa to us on independence to us. Did India for example make a contribution to the cost and how about the colonies.


  • #182
    Belfast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    But since the British left is has become a bastion of freedom and democracy.......hasn't it?

    True.
    Being independent does not mean you are going to be free. Your own people can be just as oppressive as any invading army.

    Rhodesia for all its many flaws was better for most people than
    Zimbabwe is today.

    My Aunt lived in Rhodesia and later Zimbabwe and now lives in South Africa.

    After Britain bankrupted it self fighting 2 world wars in could no longer afford to control such a large empire.

    The British empire all like all empires had it good and bad points and its break up was not always good for the countries that became independent.

    maybe with the strain of fight the first and second world wars and the cold war the break up of the British Empire might have broken up more slowly or in a more controlled fashion.

    it is also possible what that such a large empire breaking up was always going to leave many problem in its wake.


  • #183
    Belfast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    The reason they want pardons seems to me that they did not desert out of cowardice but a desire to fight evil and save Europe for the evil Nation socialists.
    To my mind the broke their oath to the Irish nation.
    Fought in a war the democratically elected government decided we should have no part in.
    The took part in the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population.
    Between the imperialist powers and communist and on the other Nation Socialists and imperialist power on the other side.

    At best fighting for the allies was the lesser of 2 evils and not sure there was that much difference between the two sides.

    I see the war as a collective insanity that Ireland was right to to stay out of.
    it lead to the atomic weapons and the cold war and the many proxy wars fought in during the cold war in the 3rd world.


  • #184
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Belfast wrote: »
    The reason they want pardons seems to me that they did not desert out of cowardice but a desire to fight evil and save Europe for the evil Nation socialists.

    Brother Colombanus says he went for adventure and be part of the big event. Link in post 154.

    The moral rightness and justification of what nazism was doing to jews came post liberating the death camps.

    The deserters did not know this when they deserted
    .


  • #185
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    But since the British left is has become a bastion of freedom and democracy.......hasn't it?

    I am amused but as you have brought it up. Britain itself was not democratic pre WWI with limited suffrage. All men over 21 (& women over 30) got the vote in 1918.

    Irish men & women over 21 could vote in elections from independence in 1922. Women in Britain under 30 were not allowed to vote until 1928 , six years after Irish women.

    So Britain itself was hardly democratic so did not export democracy and countries trying out democracy as a form of government on independence did so despite and not because of British rule. Burma had been a monarchy and the British & French invaded the region in the 19th century. So what the Burmese had was monarchy & military rule pre independence.

    It interests me from the perspective that as a concept post WWI democratic nation states were a relatively new form of government.

    The 1916 rising was not a popular rising and the support for the war of independence was largely due to the civilian atrocities carried out by the army and not the rising itself. That changed public opinion.

    In this context, I wonder that if in the transition , people did retain a residual loyalty to the Crown and if that influenced the desertions ?


  • #186
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    CDfm wrote: »
    Brother Colombanus says he went for adventure and be part of the big event. Link in post 154.

    The moral rightness and justification of what nazism was doing to jews came post liberating the death camps.

    The deserters did not know this when they deserted
    .

    but it sounds better if they say or have it said about them they deserted to fight the evils of Nazism as opposed to seeking adventure. that is at least the line the media is bombarding us with.


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  • #187
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    but it sounds better if they say or have it said about them they deserted to fight the evils of Nazism as opposed to seeking adventure. that is at least the line the media is bombarding us with.

    So that argument, does not hold up.

    Now I have no problem with some form of decriminalization for them but it should be for the right reasons.


  • #188
    irishmedals
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭irishmedals


    There was a programme on the BBC radio 4 about this, I have put a link below, this is my first post on this board, hopefully it works. I found the programme somewhat disturbing as it reported that hundreds of the children of Irish men who served in the British Army in WW2 ended up in various industrial schools including Artane. The programme infers that these children were singled out for more horrific treatment and there was a separate numbering system to identify these children.
    Another thing I found a bit confusing about the programme was the interview with Thomas Bonham, his father had served with the RAF during WW2. Thomas Bonham ended up in Artane and tells of his experiences there. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien interviewed on the programme says that many of the children of Irishmen killed in action during WW2 ended up in industrial schools, the programme was about the treatment of those on the Deserters List yet there is no Bonham on the Commonwealth War Graves site that would fit with a Bonham from Ireland and there is no Bonham on the deserters list.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9


  • #189
    A.Tomas
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    irishmedals wrote: »
    There was a programme on the BBC radio 4 about this, I have put a link below, this is my first post on this board, hopefully it works. I found the programme somewhat disturbing as it reported that hundreds of the children of Irish men who served in the British Army in WW2 ended up in various industrial schools including Artane. The programme infers that these children were singled out for more horrific treatment and there was a separate numbering system to identify these children.
    [




    Jeepers, I didn't realise it was that bad a programme. Industrial schools would have been topical so they just thought they'd add that in I suppose.



    "Face the Facts", give me a break. The British media can be so infuriating.
    The BBC swings from controversy to controversy. If someone says their a paragon of journalism or impartial again I think I'll scream.

    Make you sick it would.:mad:


  • #190
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The BBC are a paragon of journalism and impartial.


  • #191
    A.Tomas
    Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭A.Tomas


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The BBC are a paragon of journalism and impartial.



    AAAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


    Hole in the Wall is a very good show though!:)


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  • #192
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Shows like these are politically driven and curiously enough the UK Government and Governor of the Bank of England are very supportive of Ireland at EU level.


  • #193
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    Shows like these are politically driven and curiously enough the UK Government and Governor of the Bank of England are very supportive of Ireland at EU level.

    They are, but what puts doubt in my mind is that the BBC is being constantly accused of being overly critical of the British government. What purpose does a programme criticising Ireland serve? The British government are currently getting criticised for helping bail out eurozone countries, so from a political context, would it not make senae to portray the Irish as good friends of Britain?


  • #194
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They are, but what puts doubt in my mind is that the BBC is being constantly accused of being overly critical of the British government. What purpose does a programme criticising Ireland serve?

    The programme was not factual and thats why I criticized it.

    Here is a piece from History Ireland that someone pm'd me

    http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume6/issue1/features/?id=181

    This shows that there has been acknowledgment etc over the years

    The British government are currently getting criticised for helping bail out eurozone countries, so from a political context, would it not make senae to portray the Irish as good friends of Britain?

    In fact, that is what I have been trying to do based on the factual information and links that I have posted.

    One of the problems with Irish history is that ideology often gets in the way of facts.

    The "traditional" history often crowds out the reality and revisionism often gets bashed for wanting to rediscover what really happened.

    Take a gawk here

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=XE-GM39ifCcC&pg=PA71&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Margaret Thatcher famously asked around 1980 something like "why don't the Irish like us,even the Germans are friendly".

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/thatcher-why-dont-the-irish-like-us-even-the-germans-are-friendly-16097126.html

    (You find very little mention of the Labour Governments in the 1960's and 70's in a lot of material even though Thatcher "inherited" the problems)

    An american kid brought up today on a diet of CNN will ask the same question of the Middle East. Will a British or Irish child grow up thinking that way ?

    So I try to portray it fairly as it was as opposed to put a spin on it.

    The British Irish Summit today is a bit of a continuation of that process and the evolution of the relationship

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0113/britishirishcouncil.html

    So , of course, whatever decision made on the pardon issue will be politically influenced that will not change the real history.

    I always try ,where I can, to reference material so the source can be looked at. It would be great to see the equivalent British sources popping up.


  • #195
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Britain imprisoned deserters in WWII AFAIK and they were still arresting them until recently 1980's.(Eugene Lambert was arrested)

    History Ireland says
    Many Irish citizens who served in the war did not volunteer at all. Those in British forces at the outbreak of war in 1939 had little choice about the matter, short of desertion (British figures suggest that as many as 5,000 did desert during the war and returned to Ireland)
    So what is the status of those deserters ?


  • #196
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    CDfm wrote: »
    Britain imprisoned deserters in WWII AFAIK and they were still arresting them until recently 1980's.(Eugene Lambert was arrested)

    History Ireland says
    Many Irish citizens who served in the war did not volunteer at all. Those in British forces at the outbreak of war in 1939 had little choice about the matter, short of desertion (British figures suggest that as many as 5,000 did desert during the war and returned to Ireland)
    So what is the status of those deserters ?

    That is a good question. I don't know if there is a "statue of limitations" when it comes to military desertion. Intereting during the week George Hook mentioned on the Radio how there were soccer players from Cork on Irish team back in the 1950's who wouldn't travel to away games in Britain. The reason they had been in the british army at the outbreak of the war and had deserted so as not to fight.


  • #197
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dubhthach wrote: »
    That is a good question. I don't know if there is a "statue of limitations" when it comes to military desertion. Intereting during the week George Hook mentioned on the Radio how there were soccer players from Cork on Irish team back in the 1950's who wouldn't travel to away games in Britain. The reason they had been in the british army at the outbreak of the war and had deserted so as not to fight.

    It sort of turns the question on its head a bit doesn't it :D

    I am a bit of a fecker that way .......now all we need is a living deserter or a historian or academic to write to the newspapers.


  • #198
    irishmedals
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭irishmedals


    CDfm wrote: »
    Britain imprisoned deserters in WWII AFAIK and they were still arresting them until recently 1980's.(Eugene Lambert was arrested)

    History Ireland says
    Many Irish citizens who served in the war did not volunteer at all. Those in British forces at the outbreak of war in 1939 had little choice about the matter, short of desertion (British figures suggest that as many as 5,000 did desert during the war and returned to Ireland)
    So what is the status of those deserters ?
    Although an interesting question I do not think it is relevant. The definition of a deserter is one who leaves a place of relative danger for a place of relative safety. One of the main points of the campaign for a pardon for those on the deserters list is that they did not desert having left a place of relative safety and gone to a place of danger. Those who deserted the British Army and went to Southern Ireland would have left a place of danger (fearing being posted to the front) a gone to a place of safety, neutral Ireland.


  • #199
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    An interesting perspective but looking at a dictionary
    DESERTER. One who abandons his post; as, a soldier who abandons the public service without leave; or a sailor who abandons a ship when he has engaged to serve.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deserter

    Joining up another army and being brave there is an unrelated transaction.

    If that was an enemy then it is treachery.

    It could be the reason why this has been complicated and do we know if any of those deserters joined the Irish Army ?


  • #200
    irishmedals
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭irishmedals


    CDfm wrote: »
    An interesting perspective but looking at a dictionary



    Joining up another army and being brave there is an unrelated transaction.

    If that was an enemy then it is treachery.

    It could be the reason why this has been complicated and do we know if any of those deserters joined the Irish Army ?


    With a good defence team introduced as motive not an unrelated transaction but a strong mitigating circumstance, maybe not as strong if the trial took place during the War but considering the evidence of Nazi atrocities the defence would have to be asleep not to make it the central pillar of their case.
    If that was an enemy then it is treachery, again a good defence would argue we were neutral so had no enemies.
    I have not heard of any British Army deserters joining the Irish Army but in the case of a British Army deserter being caught he would get a trial unlike an Irish Army deserter.


  • #201
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The scale of the desertions from the Irish Army was massive.

    I imagine that owing to the complexity of the issue both sides need to recognise the others sensitivities.


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