Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

thegetawaycar · 28-11-2018 5:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Because there is an abundance of social housing in Dublin???

Short answer, yes. There is lots of social housing in Dublin. Not enough to house everyone that wants one but enough to house those who are necessary to have close to hospitals, schools and public services to keep them staffed.

Priority should be given to those that provide a service and benefit to the area firstly. Never going to happen but it should.

seenitall · 28-11-2018 5:29pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is absolutely crucial for people to accept - wealth inequality is at disgusting levels and nothing meaningful is being taken to address it. If you are a capitalist proponent, you would believe in 1000 millionaires over 1 billionaire. What we have now is a broken system and a recalibration is required.

As wealth inequality grows and grows we will have more extreme political events occurring as a means of protest against the system. Things like Trump, Brexit and far right parties gaining momentum are all completely understandable. It will only get worse and I think, honestly, a war is the scale of an event which would lead to a correction in the system and this does not seem to be an unlikely outcome with what voters will be voting for in the coming decades.

All of this is the over-arching context for Ireland's housing crisis - politicians who have lead us to the cliff edge, who have allowed a situation where we are told the economy is strong and yet, with every passing year, people are left with less cash i.e. people are getting poorer each year for the last few years in Ireland. The only wealth gains are being felt at the top. The workers turn on each other, they turn on different religions, races etc. when in reality, there is a common enemy and it is the extreme inequality. This infighting among the proles leads to disorganisation and difficulty in mobilising the masses but that of course suits the top .1% who make more money regardless.

Username : content curiosities...

thegetawaycar · 28-11-2018 5:30pm

cgcsb wrote: »

No, people think that middle earners should easily afford a roof over their head and low earners should easily afford to rent a roof over their heads. As is the case in most of Europe and the case in Ireland before Goldman Sachs set our housing policy.

What large European cities is it easy for low earners to rent and easy for middle income earners to buy? London? Frankfurt? Zurich?

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 5:32pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

Short answer, yes. There is lots of social housing in Dublin. Not enough to house everyone that wants one but enough to house those who are necessary to have close to hospitals, schools and public services to keep them staffed.

Priority should be given to those that provide a service and benefit to the area firstly. Never going to happen but it should.

And the people who already live there and work nearby? I presume a large % of people living in social housing don't commute far out to work. Are the elderly living in social homes to be evicted also?

Why turn on other poor people to 'solve' a problem created by a greedy elite?

Cina · 28-11-2018 5:34pm

cgcsb wrote: »

No, people think that middle earners should easily afford a roof over their head and low earners should easily afford to rent a roof over their heads. As is the case in most of Europe and the case in Ireland before Goldman Sachs set our housing policy.

No, it really, really is not.

In most Western, developed countries is that their big and capital cities, or main financial cities, are exactly like Dublin.

Paris, London, Madrid, Zurich, Oslo, Helsinki, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Milan, Frankfurt, New York, Toronto, Vancouver, Tokyo etc etc.

Unfortunately these tend to be the prices you pay for living in the area of your country with the most jobs and most condensed population, because the competition is so fierce.

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 5:38pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

What large European cities is it easy for low earners to rent and easy for middle income earners to buy? London? Frankfurt? Zurich?

Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo, Amsterdam, Madrid, Barcelona, Vienna, Berlin to name but a few

Frankfurt is actually not the worst if you live outside the center both it and Zurich are banking meccas full of the super high earners. Indeed nobody would be bothered living in a boring kip like frankfurt if it weren't for the high rolling jobs.

and London is part of a doomed nation that despises it's own population.

engiweirdo · 28-11-2018 5:41pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

What large European cities is it easy for low earners to rent and easy for middle income earners to buy? London? Frankfurt? Zurich?

Vienna. I'd imagine despite Zurichs costs, their much higher salaries go a long way toward easing the burden too.

28-11-2018 5:53pm

cgcsb wrote: »

...and London is part of a doomed nation that despises its own population.

Hehe.

thegetawaycar · 28-11-2018 5:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

And the people who already live there and work nearby? I presume a large % of people living in social housing don't commute far out to work. Are the elderly living in social homes to be evicted also?

Why turn on other poor people to 'solve' a problem created by a greedy elite?

Nope, I'd just move the won't work class out and those with disabilities or elderly would not be moved out of their homes. You may presume that a number of those in social housing don't commute far for work but i find that not relevant, if you perform a service that is vital to the state then the state should give you priority for their housing (at a fair price) in my opinion.

No turning on anyone just doing what's sensible, if you don't need to be in the area closest to the most jobs and are not contributing positively to the community then you should be moved out. I'm not sure how you think the "greedy elite" can create more spaces for housing in the city centre when demand far outstrips supply.

Ash.J.Williams · 28-11-2018 5:57pm

You can't compare Dublin with those fancy European cities with transport links to the city

topper75 · 28-11-2018 5:58pm

If you do nursing, policing, or teach in London, you commute in from wherever you can afford. You don't whinge outside the houses of parliament about the rent in Covent Garden.

Why are the people who do this work in Ireland special? Where have they acquired these notions?

thegetawaycar · 28-11-2018 6:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo, Amsterdam, Madrid, Barcelona, Vienna, Berlin to name but a few

Frankfurt is actually not the worst if you live outside the center both it and Zurich are banking meccas full of the super high earners. Indeed nobody would be bothered living in a boring kip like frankfurt if it weren't for the high rolling jobs.

and London is part of a doomed nation that despises it's own population.

Having lived in both Barcelona and Madrid I can speak from experience saying that to own an apartment in the city centre on an average Spanish wage is close to impossible. You can rent at a better level of affordability than in Dublin though as they allow high rises and numerous tiny apartments (regulations seem to be a lot lower).

Your point on Frankfurt relates to Dublin too, the reason people want to live there is the ability to earn and that drives up demand and prices. If you don't increase supply prices will grow and continue to grow into the future. Amsterdam (especially the centre) has house prices similar to Dublin.

As Ireland and Dublin continues to grow the city centre will continue to become more expensive to rent and buy in so I'd be allocating social stock for vital service providers.

28-11-2018 6:13pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Stockholm....

Stockholm has pretty major housing problems.

https://glomo.se/latest/the-immensurable-housing-dilemma-that-is-stockholm

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20160517-this-is-one-city-where-youll-never-find-a-home

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 6:23pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

Nope, I'd just move the won't work class out and those with disabilities or elderly would not be moved out of their homes.

Right, so we live in a country with circa 5% unemployment, within Dublin that % is even lower, and of those you'd have to separate those out who 'won't work' as opposed to those that are between jobs or have unexpectedly lost their job for some reason. Assuming all these are in social housing in critical areas, you're going to move those people else where?

It just seems like such a teadius and pointless task with little benefit at a time when iRES is buying up all the new apartments on behalf of their international investers and renting them to us at €2,000 a month.

I would suggest a public beheading of the board of iRes might be a more satisfactory expenditure of effort, and may have a more far reaching effect on the cost of renting.

thegetawaycar wrote: »

I'm not sure how you think the "greedy elite" can create more spaces for housing in the city centre when demand far outstrips supply.

I don't expect the greedy elite to do anything, afterall they are only servicing their own interests as best they can. I expect the state, which represents the people to use a small % of it's €60bn per annum resources to construct a large enough stock of housing to accommodate the population.

raze_them_all_ · 28-11-2018 6:24pm

Everybody hates the public sector until it was your house that got burned down, your mother needing to be looked after in hospital, your kids needing to go to school. Then suddenly the nurses aren't paid enough

Amirani · 28-11-2018 6:24pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Stockholm has pretty major housing problems.

https://glomo.se/latest/the-immensurable-housing-dilemma-that-is-stockholm

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20160517-this-is-one-city-where-youll-never-find-a-home

As does Copenhagen.

Amirani · 28-11-2018 6:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't expect the greedy elite to do anything, afterall they are only servicing their own interests as best they can. I expect the state, which represents the people to use a small % of it's €60bn per annum resources to construct a large enough stock of housing to accommodate the population.

What's a small percentage? Do you know how much it would cost to build enough housing to house all those currently search for somewhere affordable to live? It's not a small percentage...

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 6:27pm

topper75 wrote: »

If you do nursing, policing, or teach in London, you commute in from wherever you can afford. You don't whinge outside the houses of parliament about the rent in Covent Garden.

London is a cesspit of extreme classism ruled by a select few extremely inbred Brits and Russian billionaires who spend all day fellating each other at the expense of everyone else. Hardly a place worth talking about when it comes to discussing the most fair and equitable way forward for housing policy in a modern country.

28-11-2018 6:29pm

iRES are as much a red herring as any other entity in this market. property management firms operate in most mature and in demand markets in europe.

more homes. higher apartments. the separation of "property" from "housing as a service". the honest registry of property and housing need.

focusing on an entity (be that banks or social housing or public sector or landlords) is the wrong approach, as opposed to identifying what is happening thats a problem and whats not happening that would be a solution

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 6:30pm

thegetawaycar wrote: »

Having lived in both Barcelona and Madrid I can speak from experience saying that to own an apartment in the city centre on an average Spanish wage is close to impossible. You can rent at a better level of affordability than in Dublin though as they allow high rises and numerous tiny apartments (regulations seem to be a lot lower).

exactly

thegetawaycar wrote: »

Your point on Frankfurt relates to Dublin too, the reason people want to live there is the ability to earn and that drives up demand and prices. If you don't increase supply prices will grow and continue to grow into the future. Amsterdam (especially the centre) has house prices similar to Dublin.

By all means grow, so long as there is a suitable policy to prevent rapid cost inflation in housing, which is what responsible governance is.

Electric Sheep · 28-11-2018 6:31pm

cgcsb wrote: »

With mass emmigration, perpetual recession and low living standards? you're grand there boomer man. There's better solutions.

Believe it or not, sharing housing does not cause any of those things. If it did, those issues would exist in every major city in the world.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 28-11-2018 6:36pm

It would be better if threads like this could be started with real comparable data from the OECD. Then instead of positions and feelings, we might be able to get as close as possible to the 'truth'.

Having said that. It seems mental to me that there are teachers in this country living in Tralee on over 60k per year for 8 months work. That to me seems off the wall all together.

Are there many other countries in the world that you can become a multiple home owner over the course of your career as a teacher? Is there?

*Having said that, I think the government needs to put building affordable housing at the top of its to do list.

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-11-2018 6:37pm

limnam wrote: »

Sure it is.

No public sector worker has lost their home due to losing their public sector job. So they wouldn't know anything about losing thier job in the PS as no there was no one made redundant from the PS during the "cut backs"

Is this really such a hard concept to understand?

Public sector workers took severe pay cuts along with a raft of questionable additional deductions for things we'll never benefit from.

Those same public sector workers provide all the services you will avail of at some point in your life.

No new CS/PS is on a gravy train. My take home starting pay was 30€ more a week than social welfare. Not exactly making loads of cash.

Take out of that the cost of going to work and I was worse off. I also lost a raft of social welfare payments to thank me for getting up off my ar*e and working.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 6:38pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

It feels like people expect to leave school and be able to rent on their own from their first pay packet.
But yeah, house share was the norm for the first few years before getting settled.

I think most people expect to do the housesharing thing for a while when starting out. The point is that in Dublin and other areas, the housesharing thing is now very expensive due to the housing shortage. That example of Electric Sheep’s? Those five housemates will still be paying exorbitant rent. Cramming in the housemates to make things cheaper doesn’t work out too well these days.

28-11-2018 6:52pm

on a wider kind of point

it kinda strikes me as a ?...good thing....? that the lowest paid public worker starts at a low wage but will see that rise over time to something decent even if not promoted, and has a pension (albeit not much better than COAP since 2014)

it strikes me as a ?...good thing....? that average public sector wages are ok. theres no such thing as a valid comparison with an "average private sector worker" because that ignores two hugely relevant items:

-the actual role in question (if it exists in the private sector, its probably better paid, if it doesnt exist in the private sector, then you really want to ask why not in terms of whether you want it profit-driven or not)

- it ignores the crucial factor- private sector highest paid are obscenely remunerated and the private sector lowest paid are exploited. "average" doesnt mean sh1t and if you think the govt of the country you live in should aspire to this then.....we disagree i guess.

the average civil servant, if those figures are worth much, earns about a fifth of his or her secretary general, a person whose role equivalent in the private sector would almost certainly be several multiples of 5 higher than an "average" employee in their org. this is ?......a good thing....?

but lookit, lazy blah blah we pay your wages blah blah blah free gold pensions blah blah blah

www.publicjobs.ie away with yis

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 28-11-2018 6:57pm

Ronin Salty Hotel wrote: »

Those same public sector workers provide all the services you will avail of at some point in your life.

No new CS/PS is on a gravy train. My take home starting pay was 30€ more a week than social welfare. Not exactly making loads of cash.

Take out of that the cost of going to work and I was worse off. I also lost a raft of social welfare payments to thank me for getting up off my ar*e and working.

I know you were responding to someone else, but what you say there is more than fair and I personally agree with you.

You say yourself though that no new Public Sector workers are on the gravy train, that shows there is at least an honest problem that some people in the Private Sector have with the wages paid by the state.

Costs should be broken down by each sector/department in both the Private and Public Sector and then compared with countries from the OECB to see where the chips fall. With factoring in a job for life/guaranteed pension in the Public Sector versus a higher wage ceiling/more job flexibility in the Private Sector.

If we could get the detailed numbers then people can make more informed opinions on how best to run the country for the whole of society.

Grayson · 28-11-2018 7:23pm

The rental crises affects everyone. This thread has turned into a public Vs private match. Others turn into a employed Vs Unemployed. Yet others turn into a homeless Vs refugee argument. It's always turned into someone Vs Someone.

It doesn't matter. The root cause is still the same and a solution solves it for everyone.

wrangler · 28-11-2018 7:39pm

Grayson wrote: »

The rental crises affects everyone. This thread has turned into a public Vs private match. Others turn into a employed Vs Unemployed. Yet others turn into a homeless Vs refugee argument. It's always turned into someone Vs Someone.

It doesn't matter. The root cause is still the same and a solution solves it for everyone.

Reported on the news tonight that the massive overspend in health is leaving funding short for housing.
And yet I have to pay health insurance to ensure proper and timely health care.
Says it all really

mvl · 28-11-2018 7:44pm

Myah Flaky Tablecloth wrote: »

We have reached a new low in Irish society when we expect our teachers to share rooms with Mexicans.

and who says mexicans or brazilians are not teachers/nurses or other degrees ?

I think some of these ppl complaining about their PS salaries need to go off travel in some of the third world countries (or even Eastern Europe), see what teachers/doctors and so on earn there, and what are their work conditions; maybe they would start appreciating what this country has: good pay for PS.

limnam · 28-11-2018 9:44pm

Ronin Salty Hotel wrote: »

Public sector workers took severe pay cuts along with a raft of questionable additional deductions for things we'll never benefit from.

Those same public sector workers provide all the services you will avail of at some point in your life.

No new CS/PS is on a gravy train. My take home starting pay was 30€ more a week than social welfare. Not exactly making loads of cash.

Take out of that the cost of going to work and I was worse off. I also lost a raft of social welfare payments to thank me for getting up off my ar*e and working.

While they were secure in the fact they would not lose their job

While they moaned and whined about the cuts as their employer was crippled in debt

While they moaned and whined about having to contribute to their _own_ pensions.

Now you want a round applause for getting up off your h*le?

Are you for real?

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 9:55pm

The rental crisis is a direct result of FFG in power who enacted policies for wealthy funds like REIT and their FFG buddies in rich circles to corner the housing market hence putting up rents for everyone. If you don't believe this, continue to pay sky high rent and moan to yourself. Otherwise do some research.

dotsman · 28-11-2018 10:11pm

klaaaz wrote: »

The rental crisis is a direct result of FFG Sinn Fein and friends in power who enacted policies for wealthy funds like REIT and their FFG buddies in rich circles to corner the housing market hence putting up rents for everyone have insisted that dublin city (and the other cities to a lesser extent) is dominated by 1-2 story housing and council flats right bang in the city center, resulting in a huge shortage of suitable housing in our cities (especially Dublin). If you don't believe this, continue to pay sky high rent and moan to yourself. Otherwise do some research.

Fixed your post

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 10:14pm

dotsman wrote: »

Fixed your post

FFG are in power and have been since 1921.

doc_17 · 28-11-2018 10:19pm

Investment needs to be spread out around the country or this problem will not be fixed.

4ensic15 · 28-11-2018 10:22pm

klaaaz wrote: »

FFG are in power and have been since 1921.

Lloyd George was in power in a Lib/Con coalition in 1921. FF and FG didn't even exist.

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 10:25pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Lloyd George was in power in a Lib/Con coalition in 1921. FF and FG didn't even exist.

Boohoo on the legality of Dail Eireann at that time nearly 100 years ago.

FFG have been in power in our lifetime and helped propagate this housing mess.

kona · 28-11-2018 10:27pm

Keep dublin for the dubs. Problem solved.

4ensic15 · 28-11-2018 10:27pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Boohoo on the legality of Dail Eireann at that time nearly 100 years ago.

FFG have been in power in our lifetime and helped propagate this housing mess.

Dublin had the worst slums in Europe in 1921. The housing situation is a lot better then than now. Why should teachers be paid any more. Just what special skills do you need to spend a few hours a day walking around a room saying "who let that fart?"

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 10:30pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Dublin had the worst slums in Europe in 1921. The housing situation is a lot better then than now. Why should teachers be paid any more. Just what special skills do you need to spend a few hours a day walking around a room saying "who let that fart?"

You're comparing housing now and in 1921, why??

And why introduce teachers?

Everyone is being screwed by the high rents and high house prices being perpetuated by the wealthy and facilitated by FFG in power. Guess you approve of their policies for the wealthy property owners then

4ensic15 · 28-11-2018 10:35pm

klaaaz wrote: »

You're comparing housing now and in 1921, why??

And why introduce teachers?

Everyone is being screwed by the high rents and high house prices being perpetuated by the wealthy and facilitated by FFG in power. Guess you approve of their policies for the wealthy property owners then

You are the one who started about 1921! When your completely inadequate historical knowledge is corrected you start up a personal attack. Who voted for those politicians? Who consistently gave their votes to the highest bidder? Who voted for free farms in 1918? In Germany when the government does something stupid like run a budget deficit, it is voted out of office. In Ireland when a government tries to do something sensible like try to have a budget surplus it is voted out. Simplistic nonsense about politicians doing it all on their own will never solve any problem.

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 10:43pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

You are the one who started about 1921! When your completely inadequate historical knowledge is corrected you start up a personal attack. Who voted for those politicians? Who consistently gave their votes to the highest bidder? Who voted for free farms in 1918? In Germany when the government does something stupid like run a budget deficit, it is voted out of office. In Ireland when a government tries to do something sensible like try to have a budget surplus it is voted out. Simplistic nonsense about politicians doing it all on their own will never solve any problem.

Welcome to the 21st century. Here we have FFG in power for decades dictating housing policy which facilitates the wealthy who in turn screw over everyone trying to pay rent in Dublin which is now a minimum of 1,500 a month(Daft), is that a fair rent?

4ensic15 · 28-11-2018 10:46pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Welcome to the 21st century. Here we have FFG in power for decades dictating housing policy which facilitates the wealthy who in turn screw over everyone trying to pay rent in Dublin which is now a minimum of 1,500 a month(Daft), is that a fair rent?

Housing policy is dictated by the ECB. That is the result of people voting in gombeens at every election. The real culprits are the people who voted for them, not the politicians. They wouldn't be politicians if no one voted for them.

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 11:07pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Housing policy is dictated by the ECB. That is the result of people voting in gombeens at every election. The real culprits are the people who voted for them, not the politicians. They wouldn't be politicians if no one voted for them.

Well, do we see people here protesting against the ECB? The theme here seems to be infighting rather than pointing at who has been buying up all the property

4ensic15 · 28-11-2018 11:08pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Well, do we see people here protesting against the ECB? The theme here seems to be infighting rather than pointing at who has been buying up all the property

People are too busy blaming politicians for everything to protest about the ECB. Companies are buying all the property. That is their nature. It is not their fault the Irish have messed up their country.

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 11:26pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

People are too busy blaming politicians for everything to protest about the ECB. Companies are buying all the property. That is their nature. It is not their fault the Irish have messed up their country.

The politicians of FFG have enabled this. Some Irish(FFG cohort) have messed up, not all Irish.

dotsman · 28-11-2018 11:44pm

klaaaz wrote: »

FFG are in power and have been since 1921.

The planning of our cities (and the massive shortage of suitable housing) is in the hands of the councils. I think you'll find that Sinn Fein & Friends rule supreme there with there policy of low density, low quality housing dominating Dublin City Center, because they love their "comoonities" so much resulting in the current massive shortage of suitable housing, office space and public transport.

klaaaz · 28-11-2018 11:49pm

dotsman wrote: »

The planning of our cities (and the massive shortage of suitable housing) is in the hands of the councils. I think you'll find that Sinn Fein & Friends rule supreme there with there policy of low density, low quality housing dominating Dublin City Center, because they love their "comoonities" so much resulting in the current massive shortage of suitable housing, office space and public transport.

Actually SF and "friends" have only "ruled" there if thats a name in the last few years. The absolute power rules with FFG in government, they have directed policy which enabled REIT's to buy up thousands of homes and charged whatever rent they want with them.

Allinall · 28-11-2018 11:54pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Actually SF and "friends" have only "ruled" there if thats a name in the last few years. The absolute power rules with FFG in government, they have directed policy which enabled REIT's to buy up thousands of homes and charged whatever rent they want with them.

I’d be interested to know what specific policies the government have directed to enable REIT to purchase properties ahead of anyone else?

Also, evidence of policies that enable them to charge “whatever rent they want”

klaaaz · 29-11-2018 12:03am

Allinall wrote: »

I’d be interested to know what specific policies the government have directed to enable REIT to purchase properties ahead of anyone else?

Also, evidence of policies that enable them to charge “whatever rent they want”

Outside wealthy vulture funds were allowed to buy up thousands of homes who have paid less tax than traditional landlords. Where is your questioning of wealthy REIT's? (there are no enforced rent controls here, the FFG publicity controls were unenforceable)

Allinall · 29-11-2018 12:09am

klaaaz wrote: »

Outside wealthy vulture funds were allowed to buy up thousands of homes who have paid less tax than traditional landlords. Where is your questioning of wealthy REIT's? (there are no enforced rent controls here, the FFG publicity controls were unenforceable)

So- no policies.

We have an open and competitive property market.

So called “outside vulture funds” are given no advantage over any other buyers.

Can you show any specific policies from government that contradicts that?

Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

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