Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings

iamwhoiam · 30-05-2020 4:18pm

Jayesdiem wrote: »

I’m sorry but this is one of the best pieces of news I’ve heard all week: people being normal again. In terms of regrettable legacies, the permanent paranoia that will dictate new behaviours comes a distant second to the unfortunate deaths we have witnessed. However, it’ll be a daily reminder about how soft and fragile our society has become. The people falling over each other in Woodies have made a risk vs reward calculation in their heads and have correctly (in my opinion), concluded that prancing around imaginary personal boundaries and hiding behind absurd face coverings is no way to live. I would suggest to you that if the way people behaved 12 short weeks ago is a threat and insult to you now, you stay out of their way rather than expecting them to stay out of yours. Maybe you can outsource your daily errands to someone who isn’t afraid of their own shadow.

That is not strictly right . The shops are obliged to reduce numbers to a safe level . We are all entitled to go shopping and have the shop floor within safe guidelines
The shops are not just for those flaunting the 2m rule , the shop is for us all and we are entitled to feel the guidelines are being adhered to

Professor Moriarty · 30-05-2020 4:19pm

Travis Numerous Steamer wrote: »

Just in Woodies and it's a disgrace, no system at all, queue for till is between the main lanes, people walking on top of people, far to many in the shop. Far better/safer system in Homebase

Yeah. I only go to garages/shops that have good social distancing measures in place. TBF, most do.

Jayesdiem · 30-05-2020 4:20pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

That is not strictly right . The shops are obliged to reduce numbers to a safe level . We are all entitled to go shopping and have the shop floor within safe guidelines
The shops are not just for those flaunting the 2m rule , the shop is for us all and we are entitled to feel the guidelines are being adhered to

No the shop is for only those who dare set foot across its threshold.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:21pm

crossman47 wrote: »

The current process should, if working properly, result in the cabinet making decisions. it isn't the CMO's fault if they are hiding behind him. He can't change the advice he gives as a medical professional.

What I have said above is that the governance structures need to change. By all means publish all advice, ensure that the Oireachtas Committee has access to the senior officials providing the advice but these daily press conferences should end and the Government should be seen to take the decisions and provide the leadership. Bring it back to advisors advise and Ministers decide.

iamwhoiam · 30-05-2020 4:25pm

Jayesdiem wrote: »

No the shop is for only those who dare set foot across its threshold.

Whatever . But the poster is perfectly entitled to be annoyed and report the lack of effort

Benimar · 30-05-2020 4:26pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Well as someone who is eminently more qualified than Mr. Holohan in economics and indeed corporate governance, I believe that the current decision making process will damage the economy, lead to job losses and cause reputational damage to Ireland.

And I’d be more qualified in both than him too.

However, if Leo is leaving Tony Holohan make the decisions, the problem isn’t with NPHET, it’s with Leo.

Tony Holohan cannot over rule Leo on his own, Leo can only let himself be over ruled.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:27pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. I only go to garages/shops that have good social distancing measures in place. TBF, most do.

Agree and I will be loyal to those businesses who did. I am very much of the mind that things should open up but they need to respect the 1 m WHO recommended distance as a means to minimise risk for staff and customers. And people need to stay at home if sick, to get tested if they have symptoms and employers need to be responsible in respect to this.

crossman47 · 30-05-2020 4:27pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

What I have said above is that the governance structures need to change. By all means publish all advice, ensure that the Oireachtas Committee has access to the senior officials providing the advice but these daily press conferences should end and the Government should be seen to take the decisions and provide the leadership. Bring it back to advisors advise and Ministers decide.

We agree to an extent. The structures don't need to change but they need to be used as you indicate.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:29pm

Benimar wrote: »

And I’d be more qualified in both than him too.

However, if Leo is leaving Tony Holohan make the decisions, the problem isn’t with NPHET, it’s with Leo.

Tony Holohan cannot over rule Leo on his own, Leo can only let himself be over ruled.

I did play the man rather the ball and corrected that post. I agree 100% but part of that has to be on communication also.

ZX7R · 30-05-2020 4:29pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

That is not strictly right . The shops are obliged to reduce numbers to a safe level . We are all entitled to go shopping and have the shop floor within safe guidelines
The shops are not just for those flaunting the 2m rule , the shop is for us all and we are entitled to feel the guidelines are being adhered to

Saturday of a bank holiday weekend with this weather anywhere will be hard pressed to control people even Woodies.
Plus it is only the projection of one poster that social distancing rules were not been adhered to.
We're they using a measuring tape

niallo27 · 30-05-2020 4:30pm

Travis Numerous Steamer wrote: »

Just in Woodies and it's a disgrace, no system at all, queue for till is between the main lanes, people walking on top of people, far to many in the shop. Far better/safer system in Homebase

Its not woodies in limerick anyway because its quiet strict there.

Professor Moriarty · 30-05-2020 4:33pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Agree and I will be loyal to those businesses who did. I am very much of the mind that things should open up but they need to respect the 1 m WHO recommended distance as a means to minimise risk for staff and customers. And people need to stay at home if sick, to get tested if they have symptoms and employers need to be responsible in respect to this.

Agreed. Not yet convinced fully about the 1m though. Here's Dr Navarro from WHO a few days ago:

"The WHO and others have said the best distance to keep away from people if you want to avoid inhaling a droplet is two metres. That's because that will keep you safe 99% of the time but you can greatly reduce risk even at one metre because 70% of the droplets will stick within one metre."

He went on to say that ultimately it's a matter of personal choice. So some people might choose to go to shops that have little or no social distancing and others will go to shops that have strict social distancing.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:39pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Agreed. Not yet convinced fully about the 1m though. Here's Dr Navarro from WHO a few days ago:

"The WHO and others have said the best distance to keep away from people if you want to avoid inhaling a droplet is two metres. That's because that will keep you safe 99% of the time but you can greatly reduce risk even at one metre because 70% of the droplets will stick within one metre."

He went on to say that ultimately it's a matter of personal choice. So some people might choose to go to shops that have little or no social distancing and others will go to shops that have strict social distancing.

I know that but they also mention that this was on the basis of people who were sneezing and coughing. So 1m with people exercising personal responsibility and wearing masks will most likely reduce that risk. There is a judgement call.

MrMusician18 · 30-05-2020 4:39pm

One could easily question the value of the remaining measures at this point - From a social perspective, they seem to have completely gone out the window and the only ones trying to observe them are business and formal organisations.

So if large numbers of people are not obeying the measures - compliance must be less than 50% at this point - then why continue to punish business?

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

One could easily question the value of the remaining measures at this point - From a social perspective, they seem to have completely gone out the window and the only ones trying to observe them are business and formal organisations.

So if large numbers of people are not obeying the measures - compliance must be less than 50% at this point - then why continue to punish business?

That’s a good point. Responsible business and reasonable social distancing policies can be a positive. I was on Henry street earlier - more people around, people queuing responsibly for shops that were open including Gino’s. It felt right and it did not feel unsafe.

Benimar · 30-05-2020 4:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

One could easily question the value of the remaining measures at this point - From a social perspective, they seem to have completely gone out the window and the only ones trying to observe them are business and formal organisations.

So if large numbers of people are not obeying the measures - compliance must be less than 50% at this point - then why continue to punish business?

I don’t know where you are seeing such low compliance. I’ve been out walking, at the beach and to the shop today and the level of compliance is very high. In fact, remove the teenagers, and it’s close to 100% where I am.

titan18 · 30-05-2020 4:43pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Did he not overrule the Taoiseach a few weeks back? I think Alan Kelly described it as a very poor sign for the body politic.

The Govt regulations on travel run out on 16 June. Why is he anticipating what the Government will say.

The structures and governance (and this is the fault of the Government) are seriously flawed and we will all be paying the price for a long long time.

Tbf, Leo did the same himself as the leaks reported them lifting them in months, not weeks for countries with low coronavirus cases.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 4:47pm

titan18 wrote: »

Tbf, Leo did the same himself as the leaks reported them lifting them in months, not weeks for countries with low coronavirus cases.

Truth be told - Varadkar has been pretty awful this month. Although he was impressive on March 17.

growleaves · 30-05-2020 4:55pm

Religious leaders speak out over Government's 'unlawful' closure of churches [UK]

The closure of churches is “unlawful”, a coalition of Christian bishops and religious leaders have warned, as they threaten a judicial review into the decision to keep doors locked.

Last week France’s Supreme Court ruled that the French government’s absolute ban on religious gatherings in a bid to curb the spread of coronavirus is unlawful, and ordered the Government to relax restrictions on religious worship.

Now a group of high-profile church leaders and bishops in the UK have written to the Government seeking an urgent review of lockdown measures that uniformly ban churches from opening.

Professor Moriarty · 30-05-2020 4:56pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

I know that but they also mention that this was on the basis of people who were sneezing and coughing. So 1m with people exercising personal responsibility and wearing masks will most likely reduce that risk. There is a judgement call.

Yeah. If everyone wore decent masks it would help greatly with the two metres.

growleaves · 30-05-2020 4:58pm

Scots pensioner went for five days without food because she was scared to leave her flat during lockdown

Charity bosses have since stepped in and rescued the woman after she was found starving in her flat on the top floor of a tenement.

Micky 32 · 30-05-2020 5:03pm

growleaves wrote: »

Scots pensioner went for five days without food because she was scared to leave her flat during lockdown

She must have been reading this thread!

growleaves · 30-05-2020 5:07pm

‘It’s All Bullsh*t,’ Russia’s Coronavirus Information Chief Says of Virus Fears

In a interview that aired Wednesday, Myasnikov gestured for the cameras to stop running and said candidly: “It’s all bullsh*t.”

“It’s all exaggerated. It’s an acute respiratory disease with minimal mortality,” he told television personality Ksenia Sobchak in the interview for her YouTube project.

“Why has the whole world been destroyed? That I don’t know,” Myasnikov said, adding that he’s more concerned about a second wave that he claimed “we're unprepared for.”

Jayesdiem · 30-05-2020 5:07pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

I know that but they also mention that this was on the basis of people who were sneezing and coughing. So 1m with people exercising personal responsibility and wearing masks will most likely reduce that risk. There is a judgement call.

What’s this judgement call all about? What are you scared of?

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 5:09pm

Jayesdiem wrote: »

What’s this judgement call all about? What are you scared of?

A risk based assessment. I think 1m with safeguards and persona responsibility makes sense. What do you think?

Jayesdiem · 30-05-2020 5:13pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

A risk based assessment. I think 1m with safeguards and persona responsibility makes sense. What do you think?

I don’t want to be crude but I mostly agree with the Russian guy cited above. I believe the inconvenience of tip toeing around the virus is less palatable than actually contracting it and dealing with it if I do (I think I had it). The world will not function properly with social distancing and we cannot live this way.

vid36 · 30-05-2020 5:15pm

Germany is a probusiness country and they have successfully reopened with 1.5m social distance. Many other countries require more than 1m .Australia, USA,Netherlands, Belgium,Spain ,Switzerland, Poland ,UK.etc.We should not drop to the lowest standard just in response to successful lobbying. Why should Irish people accept a lower standard in safety than Germany?

growleaves · 30-05-2020 5:16pm

Why most Covid-19 deaths won’t be from the virus

From a famine of “biblical” proportions to a deluge of undiagnosed cancers, while we’re all worrying about the coronavirus, most fatalities could be collateral damage.

Across the globe, patients have reported being denied cancer care, kidney dialysis and urgent transplant surgeries, with sometimes fatal results. In the Balkans, women have been driven to try dangerous, experimental abortions themselves, while experts in the UK have reported a rise in DIY dentistry, as people turn to toe-curling improvisations involving chewing gum, wire-cutters, and superglue. Panic-hoarding of the drug hydroxychloroquin, which is normally used to treat malaria and autoimmune conditions, and has recently been found to increase deaths from Covid-19, has led to shortages.

And as with all crises, the current pandemic looks set to hit the poorest countries the hardest. Scientists have warned that, in some places, disruption to the control of diseases such as HIV, tuberculosis and malaria could lead to losses on the same scale as those caused directly by the virus. Similarly, experts fear that deaths from illnesses such as cholera could far exceed those from Covid-19 itself.

Finally, it's thought that the global lockdowns and subsequent economic turmoil could increase so-called deaths of despair, as some people resort to alcoholism or suicide.

Jayesdiem · 30-05-2020 5:16pm

vid36 wrote: »

Germany is a probusiness country and they have successfully reopened with 1.5m social distance. Many other countries require more than 1m .Australia, USA,Netherlands, Belgium,Spain ,Switzerland, Poland ,UK.etc.We should not drop to the lowest standard just in response to successful lobbying. Why should Irish people accept a lower standard in safety than Germany?

Because it’s absolutely ludicrous. Look at what the world has become!

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 5:17pm

Jayesdiem wrote: »

I don’t want to be crude but I mostly agree with the Russian guy cited above. I believe the inconvenience of tip toeing around the virus is less palatable than actually contracting it and dealing with it if I do (I think I had it). The world will not function properly with social distancing and we cannot live this way.

I understand that view. There is a balance though to be struck from different positions. I don’t think we are at the point of opening nightclubs but we can open a lot with 1 metre distancing. With 1 metre distancing I would open up the Avila stadium with a reduced capacity in August.

dalyboy · 30-05-2020 5:19pm

Jim Root wrote: »

What an outrageous slur to make. He’s a medical doctor. Do you expect him to make any guidance that increases medical risk?

Oh the irony of that last bit of your post has me in dismay.
Ask that question to all the people awaiting cancer screenings with no testing resume date secured. What about the mental health of the citizens? What about the knock on effect of a busted flush of an economy? Do these potential suicides not factor in medical risk ?

Lundstram · 30-05-2020 5:36pm

Just back from the local lake. Loads there soaking up the sun and having a few drinks, all very relaxing. Until two Gardaí arrive and make an annoucment for people who don't live within 5km to leave. No one batted an eyelid. They walked around talking to individuals then but no one budged so they gave up and left.

Bloody jobsworths, you'd think there was no real crime going on in the country. :rolleyes:

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 5:40pm

Lundstram wrote: »

Just back from the local lake. Loads there soaking up the sun and having a few drinks, all very relaxing. Until two Gardaí arrive and make an annoucment for people who don't live within 5km to leave. No one batted an eyelid. They walked around talking to individuals then but no one budged so they gave up and left.

Bloody jobsworths, you'd think there was no real crime going on in the country. :rolleyes:

I remember being on a train in Belgium. The inspector walked into the carriage and asked first in French and then in Flemish “Is there anyone who does not have a ticket?” A common sense approach to doing a job and perhaps the Gardai could have done the first part of it and left the second alone.

alta stare · 30-05-2020 5:45pm

Managed to squeeze in a trip to the beach today. Loads out there. The water was lovely and people were enjoying themselves. The Gardai were outside on the main road with a half arsed checkpoint. Great to see people out.

RobitTV · 30-05-2020 6:03pm

Had a lovely day today enjoying the weather. Loads of people out and getting ice cream and having a few drinks and socialising with people.

The Gardai weren't around because they knew it was a waste of time. Who cares if somebody came from outside the 5km radius.

MrMusician18 · 30-05-2020 6:21pm

RobitTV wrote: »

Had a lovely day today enjoying the weather. Loads of people out and getting ice cream and having a few drinks and socialising with people.

The Gardai weren't around because they knew it was a waste of time. Who cares if somebody came from outside the 5km radius.

This caviler behavior among the general public is exactly what I'm talking about. A good part of the population are 6-8 weeks ahead of the government roadmap socially at least - yet they're would be consternation from the public if business was at the same carry on.

The double standards must be very frustrating for business owners.

Blaze420 · 30-05-2020 6:25pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

This caviler behavior among the general public is exactly what I'm talking about. A good part of the population are 6-8 weeks ahead of the government roadmap socially at least - yet they're would be consternation from the public if business was at the same carry on.

The double standards must be very frustrating for business owners.

Well that might tell you the roadmap is too slow - enjoyed a bbq with friends today and I don’t give a **** that I did so. Enough is enough with this nonsense.

MrMusician18 · 30-05-2020 6:30pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

Well that might tell you the roadmap is too slow - enjoyed a bbq with friends today and I don’t give a **** that I did so. Enough is enough with this nonsense.

It might however also tell you that people are selfish and impatient.

MickeyLeari · 30-05-2020 6:33pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It might however also tell you that people are selfish and impatient.

The people are the reason this worked. 60% of the deaths were in nursing homes where the State fell down badly. At the same time it should be acknowledged that nursing home residents are also susceptible when there is a strong flu going around.

MrMusician18 · 30-05-2020 6:39pm

MickeyLeari wrote: »

The people are the reason this worked. 60% of the deaths were in nursing homes where the State fell down badly. At the same time it should be acknowledged that nursing home residents are also susceptible when there is a strong flu going around.

And do those that initially complied and are now ignoring the regulations want a clap on the back?

The second wave of the Spanish flu was more deadly than the first.

Blaze420 · 30-05-2020 6:42pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And do those that initially complied and are now ignoring the regulations want a clap on the back?

The second wave of the Spanish flu was more deadly than the first.

You want to stay scared and indoors then stay scared and indoors - don’t be slinging **** at people who don’t buy in the doom and gloom any more.

mloc123 · 30-05-2020 6:45pm

Drove 30km today to walk around an almost empty curragh... Could have stayed within my own 5km and walked in a packed parkland.

wes16586 · 30-05-2020 6:48pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Drove 30km today to walk around an almost empty curragh... Could have stayed within my own 5km and walked in a packed parkland.

I couldn't get my head around this when it was a 2km restriction. Fairview park was absolutely packed all day every day. It was very difficult to socially distance and there were no other parks within 2km for many living in the area. Once it was extended the 5km rule the park hasn't been half as packed.

Jayesdiem · 30-05-2020 6:49pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

This caviler behavior among the general public is exactly what I'm talking about. A good part of the population are 6-8 weeks ahead of the government roadmap socially at least - yet they're would be consternation from the public if business was at the same carry on.

The double standards must be very frustrating for business owners.

Frustrating for businesses yes; lethal in fact. You’d better stay at home though. This reckless behaviour is sure to lead to a second wave, even more deadly than the first. However, there is a solution: I have it on good authority that if you lock yourself in your bedroom, you have a 100% chance of not contracting coronavirus. I like those odds myself. Apparently it’s also effective in preventing most other communicable diseases.

pjohnson · 30-05-2020 6:49pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It might however also tell you that people are selfish and impatient.

Well if the plan gets delayed we know who to blame for not following basic instructions. The boasters now making it worse.

Benimar · 30-05-2020 6:51pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Well if the plan gets delayed we know who to blame for not following basic instructions.

Oh don’t worry, they will find a way to blame Leo or Tony Holohan!

pjohnson · 30-05-2020 6:52pm

Benimar wrote: »

Oh don’t worry, they will find a way to blame Leo or Tony Holohan!

I'd say thats always the way with them. Always someone elses fault for their own decisions and consequences they face.

MrMusician18 · 30-05-2020 6:52pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

You want to stay scared and indoors then stay scared and indoors - don’t be slinging **** at people who don’t buy in the doom and gloom any more.

It's not about starting at home scared, it's about acting in a socially responsible manner.

Then again social responsibility has never been a strong trait in this country - it's always someone else's fault. And when the second wave comes we will look at government saying it's all their fault...

the kelt · 30-05-2020 6:53pm

It’s is funny though that there was many many people who view the lockdown over restriction roadmap etc as being essential and right and not in any way too slow on here who have been telling everyone for weeks that people aren’t obeying restrictions and this isn’t going to end well.

Yet the numbers are still going down.

It seems from here and other threads more and more people aren’t obeying the restrictions at all.

Yet the numbers are still going down.

So the same people telling you that no one is obeying restriction are saying the restrictions are necessary for the numbers to go down!

Something isn’t adding up really is it?

I genuinely think it’s time to start moving through these phases quicker at this stage if as people claim they’re practically done with anyway and the numbers are still falling.

42 people in icu across the entire 26 counties and population of 4.5 million as of today.

Blaze420 · 30-05-2020 6:53pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Well if the plan gets delayed we know who to blame for not following basic instructions.

Listen pal, people haven’t turned in to lepers just because this thing was around. If you and your friends/family haven’t had any symptoms or any illness in the lockdown period then why shouldn’t you meet up with them? Use your damn brain and stop eating the bull**** the media keep spoon feeding you on this. The roadmap is too long and if we had any logical government in place it would be accelerated to the end by July at the latest - August is taking the piss and most people have now realised that and said to hell with it. Keep the shops and pubs closed however long you want, life has to go on and it’s been on hold more than long enough.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings