Social distancing Megathread

trapp · 17-03-2020 2:13pm

Balf wrote: »

I don't think you are being selfish. Choices are being made that damage some people significantly, to avoid a risk of damage to others.

Where that's been figured out as the best option isn't clear, to be frank. Thus far, questioning is being held back in the expectation that anyone asking where this is all going will be depicted as selfish.

This is unsustainable. Its fecking mad to think we can close down whole sections of economic life, as if it can be assumed the consequences have less value that whatever it is we think we're preserving. No problem completely disrupting the education of young people and pitching large numbers of people out of work.

Very heavy mortality among older people. We get that. Those same older people won't have pensions, or any other supports, if there isn't an economy there to fund those things.

Maybe all this folderol is going on, just to move public opinion to a place where we accept this approach is just unworkable. If so, can I say I'm already there.

Along with the effects of isolation.

Interesting we haven't heard much about the negative effects of this as those implementing the decisions and those in the media will not be affected by them as they will still be working.

I know they are doing their best.

But I'm very, very worried about the long term effects of a long term shutdown on the vulnerable people of this country.

The elderly and those with underlying conditions are vulnerable but the effects of lonileness and umemployment are known to be grave and we've now got 200,0000 minimum people unemployed and told to isolate.

It's unsustainable and I fear for the mindset of this country in a few weeks time.

this will be easier for those with jobs continuing and good family structures.

Some communities will be devastated.

Balf · 17-03-2020 2:20pm

trapp wrote: »

Those implementing these restrictions will not be affected by them as they will still be outside the home.

These measures may be needed but my god the effects could be absolutely devastating.

I think this is important, and I don't think we even need to go as extreme as talking about implications for suicide.

Shutting down large portions of the economy for months will cause problems that many people will be dealing with the consequences of for many years.

At some stage, the pendulum will have to swing back. We can't just suspend normal social life on the basis of arbitrary edicts.

I mean, when it was suggested that we needed to pay water charges, the country went nuts and it couldn't happen.

Right now, a doctor says "ye lot can't make a living until I say so", and we accept it without much thought. Which means the doctor doesn't have to make a judgement about the damage being caused.

Not sustainable.

trapp · 17-03-2020 2:29pm

Balf wrote: »

I think this is important, and I don't think we even need to go as extreme as talking about implications for suicide.

Shutting down large portions of the economy for months will cause problems that many people will be dealing with the consequences of for many years.

At some stage, the pendulum will have to swing back. We can't just suspend normal social life on the basis of arbitrary edicts.

I mean, when it was suggested that we needed to pay water charges, the country went nuts and it couldn't happen.

Right now, a doctor says "ye lot can't make a living until I say so", and we accept it without much thought. Which means the doctor doesn't have to make a judgement about the damage being caused.

Not sustainable.

Exactly.

We're getting the one message from politicians, doctors, media.

But they're not going to lose their jobs, isolate etc.

Genuine question but has there even been a thought as to what the already disadvantaged communities will be like in a few weeks or months?

It seems we're in a no win situation with grave costs either way but the current method is unsustainable.

The media imply that it will be, but they won't be affected and can't understand how it feels to lose your job, contact with others and any hope for the future.

The Gardai have set up a public order unit, they know what's coming.

This is simply not sustainable.

Idbatterim · 17-03-2020 2:37pm

trapp wrote: »

Exactly.

We're getting the one message from politicians, doctors, media.

But they're not going to lose their jobs, isolate etc.

Genuine question but has there even been a thought as to what the already disadvantaged communities will be like in a few weeks or months?

It seems we're in a no win situation with grave costs either way but the current method is unsustainable.

The media imply that it will be, but they won't be affected and can't understand how it feels to lose your job, contact with others and any hope for the future.

The Gardai have set up a public order unit, they know what's coming.

This is simply not sustainable.

Like I said at the start of the thread, I think people will start losing there minds after a few weeks of this, the first week or two it is a novelty... and its already starting to get old!

Harry Palmr · 17-03-2020 2:44pm

Which is why people need to take a rationed measure of social contact at a safe distance, it may feel a bit daft conducting a short conversation at say three paces (just to add 50% to the guild-lines) but I'd sooner do that then see and talk to no one face to distant face.

If it's only once or twice a week people will feel better in the head.

hatrickpatrick · 17-03-2020 2:46pm

The time of year is very unfortunate. If this had happened a month or two earlier and people were being told to self-isolate during January and February that'd be one thing, but with an upturn in the weather expected next week and the days getting longer, especially with next week's clock change, the atmosphere will rapidly swing to one of wanting to do things with one's friends. April is in my view one of several peaks for things like gigs, shows, cinema, clubbing etc for a lot of people and the lack of that will hit hard, especially as others have pointed out once the novelty wears off.

It's absolutely true that this is unsustainable in the long run. What concerns me is that our government isn't making hay while the sun shines if you will - for example, China literally built new hospitals specifically for COVID patients, meanwhile Ireland has a pre-existing shortage of beds and ICU beds in particular and it feels like we're taking absolutely no action whatsoever to address this during the containment and delay phases, which is exactly what we should be doing.

I can't help feeling that when the dam breaks and self-isolation inevitably runs out of steam, we'll have achieved precisely nothing during the interim in terms of creating the infrastructure required to handle the fallout from this.

trapp · 17-03-2020 2:47pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Like I said at the start of the thread, I think people will start losing there minds after a few weeks of this, the first week or two it is a novelty... and its already starting to get old!

So what's the long term plan?

This won't work long term, as in months or years, so what's the alternative?

I'm sitting in a house now with two people shouting at each other, both now unemployed for the current future, one of them with serious mental health issues that staying at home will only make worse.

And I'm sure there are many houses is a similar place.

This is absolutely unworkable.

Give it a few weeks and there will be riots on the streets.

trapp · 17-03-2020 2:48pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Which is why people need to take a rationed measure of social contact at a safe distance, it may feel a bit daft conducting a short conversation at say three paces (just to add 50% to the guild-lines) but I'd sooner do that then see and talk to no one face to distant face.

If it's only once or twice a week people will feel better in the head.

Doesn't solve the problem of unemployment though.

Idbatterim · 17-03-2020 3:09pm

trapp wrote: »

So what's the long term plan?

This won't work long term, as in months or years, so what's the alternative?

I'm sitting in a house now with two people shouting at each other, both now unemployed for the current future, one of them with serious mental health issues that staying at home will only make worse.

And I'm sure there are many houses is a similar place.

This is absolutely unworkable.

Give it a few weeks and there will be riots on the streets.

the ability of health service to cope and the risk of the mainly elderly dying is the big issue. It might just have to be, that the elderly and vulnerable just have to property isolate and the rest of us, just risk the chance of getting it...

in Italy, the over 80's with it, will be left to die...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/14/italians-80-will-left-die-country-overwhelmed-coronavirus/

It's absolutely true that this is unsustainable in the long run. What concerns me is that our government isn't making hay while the sun shines if you will - for example, China literally built new hospitals specifically for COVID patients, meanwhile Ireland has a pre-existing shortage of beds and ICU beds in particular and it feels like we're taking absolutely no action whatsoever to address this during the containment and delay phases, which is exactly what we should be doing.

this is Ireland and its an unprecedented emergency, so it would probably only take a decade for them to deliver even temporary facilities! Multiple public consultations and the court challenges etc... depending on how longs schools closed, youd wonder if they could use sports halls etc and close them off to schools etc, even if the schools themselves re-open...

The time of year is very unfortunate. If this had happened a month or two earlier and people were being told to self-isolate during January and February that'd be one thing, but with an upturn in the weather expected next week and the days getting longer, especially with next week's clock change, the atmosphere will rapidly swing to one of wanting to do things with one's friends. April is in my view one of several peaks for things like gigs, shows, cinema, clubbing etc for a lot of people and the lack of that will hit hard, especially as others have pointed out once the novelty wears off.

I actually think its a blessing it hit now, the longer days and nicer weather. If this was December, January , February it would have been more unbearable in my opinion. We will also get the extra hour soon. I think being able to get out and about even for walks etc, is far better now, than it would be when dark at 5pm etc.

Harry Palmr · 17-03-2020 3:17pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's absolutely true that this is unsustainable in the long run. What concerns me is that our government isn't making hay while the sun shines if you will - for example, China literally built new hospitals specifically for COVID patients, meanwhile Ireland has a pre-existing shortage of beds and ICU beds in particular and it feels like we're taking absolutely no action whatsoever to address this during the containment and delay phases, which is exactly what we should be doing.

I can't help feeling that when the dam breaks and self-isolation inevitably runs out of steam, we'll have achieved precisely nothing during the interim in terms of creating the infrastructure required to handle the fallout from this.

Out of pre-fab units in that way that China's authoritarian state can do at the drop of a hat. It's future could be a short one or it could be kept in place but either way you can be sure it'll be a pretty horrid working and patient environment for as long as it's standing.

Building a proper medical facility takes time in democracies what with standards to be adhered to.

Idbatterim · 17-03-2020 3:25pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Out of pre-fab units in that way that China's authoritarian state can do at the drop of a hat. It's future could be a short one or it could be kept in place but either way you can be sure it'll be a pretty horrid working and patient environment for as long as it's standing.

Building a proper medical facility takes time in democracies what with standards to be adhered to.

they build a modular hospital that I bed you is a lot more modern and pleasant to work in, than many of our hospitals! they were hardly going to build a bricks and mortar one!

stones and glass houses! this country is the last one that can talk about delivery, value for money or how to do things!

17-03-2020 3:27pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Which is why people need to take a rationed measure of social contact at a safe distance, it may feel a bit daft conducting a short conversation at say three paces (just to add 50% to the guild-lines) but I'd sooner do that then see and talk to no one face to distant face.

If it's only once or twice a week people will feel better in the head.

Exactly.

This isn't about completely isolating yourself. It's about minimizing contact. People can still meet. Ireland is blessed with countryside easily reached from just about anywhere in the country, including Dublin. Head to a green area, or the coast for a walk. Meet people there, keep a reasonable distance, and have social interactions.

There's no need to over dramatise this. there's no requirement on healthy people to isolate themselves completely.. and being careful will drastically increase the chance of staying healthy.

Personal responsibility to the community is important. Knowing that you're distancing yourself, not just for your own safety but also for the safety of others should be reinforced in the minds of people.

As for the long term implications, right now, you're all scaremongering and seeking trouble long before it happens. Humans adapt. Society changes. We will find an alternative manner to behave and interact with others as time goes by.

17-03-2020 3:30pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they build a modular hospital that I bed you is a lot more modern and pleasant to work in, than many of our hospitals! they were hardly going to build a bricks and mortar one!

stones and glass houses! this country is the last one that can talk about delivery, value for money or how to do things!

Dude... you've never been to a standard Chinese hospital. I have. The standard of the building itself, facilities, cleanliness and general degree of treatment is far inferior to Irish hospitals. There are better facilities in China, but they're rare. Think the private hospitals like the Galway Clinic in Ireland for similar... but the state hospitals for normal people are pretty awful. Not recommended.

trapp · 17-03-2020 3:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly.

This isn't about completely isolating yourself. It's about minimizing contact. People can still meet. Ireland is blessed with countryside easily reached from just about anywhere in the country, including Dublin. Head to a green area, or the coast for a walk. Meet people there, keep a reasonable distance, and have social interactions.

There's no need to over dramatise this. there's no requirement on healthy people to isolate themselves completely.. and being careful will drastically increase the chance of staying healthy.

Personal responsibility to the community is important. Knowing that you're distancing yourself, not just for your own safety but also for the safety of others should be reinforced in the minds of people.

As for the long term implications, right now, you're all scaremongering and seeking trouble long before it happens. Humans adapt. Society changes. We will find an alternative manner to behave and interact with others as time goes by.

Most of the country unemployed will only go one way.

17-03-2020 3:39pm

trapp wrote: »

Most of the country unemployed will only go one way.

This being the usually unemployed (who will continue going the way they were before) or the newly unemployed (who have no choice in the matter)?

The country will restart within a few weeks once they get a handle on the virus, what to expect, and what measures can be implemented to reduce the risks. There are too many unknowns right now.

China is already restarting their economy, and people are beginning to return to work or social habits. Scenic and tourist venues have reopened. Probably too early and in a retarded fashion, but Ireland will be able to watch other countries do the same and learn from their mistakes. China first, likely S.Korea next, etc. Each country will restart and implement their own initiatives... and Ireland can modify those initiatives for the situation here.

You seem to think the country will be shut down for months. It won't be. This is just a pause to see how bad things actually are.. and to see what can be done.

Charles Babbage · 17-03-2020 3:43pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's absolutely true that this is unsustainable in the long run. What concerns me is that our government isn't making hay while the sun shines if you will - for example, China literally built new hospitals specifically for COVID patients, meanwhile Ireland has a pre-existing shortage of beds and ICU beds in particular and it feels like we're taking absolutely no action whatsoever to address this during the containment and delay phases, which is exactly what we should be doing.

There are more important things than going to gigs or sports, although we enjoy these things. It simply isn't true that the Irish government is taking no action, although they are concentrating on taking over existing buildings rather than trying to build new ones, e.g. the old hospital in Cork being refurbished or the Garda college in Templemore.

All this talk of losing contact is exaggerated, get on the phone, fire up Skype, we have these tools nowadays.

trapp · 17-03-2020 3:53pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There are more important things than going to gigs or sports, although we enjoy these things. It simply isn't true that the Irish government is taking no action, although they are concentrating on taking over existing buildings rather than trying to build new ones, e.g. the old hospital in Cork being refurbished or the Garda college in Templemore.

All this talk of losing contact is exaggerated, get on the phone, fire up Skype, we have these tools nowadays.

Strongly disagree.

For many work and social outlets, be it sport or choir or mass, are their main social outlets.

Online contact is not a substitute.

The effects of unemployment on people are grave.

These are facts.

trapp · 17-03-2020 3:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This being the usually unemployed (who will continue going the way they were before) or the newly unemployed (who have no choice in the matter)?

The country will restart within a few weeks once they get a handle on the virus, what to expect, and what measures can be implemented to reduce the risks. There are too many unknowns right now.

China is already restarting their economy, and people are beginning to return to work or social habits. Scenic and tourist venues have reopened. Probably too early and in a retarded fashion, but Ireland will be able to watch other countries do the same and learn from their mistakes. China first, likely S.Korea next, etc. Each country will restart and implement their own initiatives... and Ireland can modify those initiatives for the situation here.

You seem to think the country will be shut down for months. It won't be. This is just a pause to see how bad things actually are.. and to see what can be done.

That's my fear.

These measures will work in the short term but over a longer period of time will do huge damage.

17-03-2020 4:10pm

trapp wrote: »

That's my fear.

These measures will work in the short term but over a longer period of time will do huge damage.

Sure it would, but it's not going to happen.

Look. Most people will get the virus and shrug it off. A percentage will have more severe issues, but the numbers needed to keep the vital aspects of the economy running will be more than enough.

The real fear is for older people, the very young, and those with pre-existing conditions... and they're not needed for the running of the county. They can continue to distance themselves while the people most capable of operating within such an environment are able to do so.

There will be measures to reduce numbers of people in enclosed spaces, likely some kind of masks for others, etc. We will adapt... because we have no choice. Shutting down for months is not an option... and nobody believes it is.

AulWan · 17-03-2020 4:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure it would, but it's not going to happen.

Look. Most people will get the virus and shrug it off. A percentage will have more severe issues, but the numbers needed to keep the vital aspects of the economy running will be more than enough.

The real fear is for older people, the very young, and those with pre-existing conditions... and they're not needed for the running of the county. They can continue to distance themselves while the people most capable of operating within such an environment are able to do so.

There will be measures to reduce numbers of people in enclosed spaces, likely some kind of masks for others, etc. We will adapt... because we have no choice. Shutting down for months is not an option... and nobody believes it is.

This sounds like going down a dangerous path to me.

In your scenario what happens when someone who is not categorised as high risk, lives with someone who is?

Or are you suggesting that families be split up, the elderly and "at risk" people isolated somewhere, while the rest of the population carries on as normal?

Idbatterim · 17-03-2020 4:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure it would, but it's not going to happen.

Look. Most people will get the virus and shrug it off. A percentage will have more severe issues, but the numbers needed to keep the vital aspects of the economy running will be more than enough.

The real fear is for older people, the very young, and those with pre-existing conditions... and they're not needed for the running of the county. They can continue to distance themselves while the people most capable of operating within such an environment are able to do so.

There will be measures to reduce numbers of people in enclosed spaces, likely some kind of masks for others, etc. We will adapt... because we have no choice. Shutting down for months is not an option... and nobody believes it is.

I agree, it might just be a case of the more at risk, who arent a necessity to the economy really or employers. Just have to isolate. Let the rest of us get on with it.... If you think about it, 66 is now retirement age, as a generalisation , most people that would be high risk due to age, are retired...

you might have older people working in retail, they can be replaced (temporarily) by younger staff that have lost jobs elsewhere...

if we knew the cure was one or two months away, you could possibly justify the high price that will be paid and I think in the immediate term

AulWan · 17-03-2020 5:11pm

You don't have to be over 66 to be at risk. I'm 50 and have diabetes. My daughter is 24 and has asthma.

Young people ARE dying too. Its not just the risk to catching it, but the risk of spreading it.

Talk of only isolating those at risk is crazy talk.

Balf · 17-03-2020 5:19pm

AulWan wrote: »

Talk of only isolating those at risk is crazy talk.

I don't agree. For some, it's only prudent to isolate.

For the rest, unsustainable.

Current approach only makes sense if we prioritise this over absolutely everything else.

This is not the only challenge facing people. Its just the one that, for some reason, finds it can get to the top of the political agenda.

Jimbob1977 · 17-03-2020 5:29pm

Corona virus could become like tuberculosis, polio or malaria in some countries.

A fact of life that cannot be 100% eradicated, but won't stop people from getting on with their lives.

We can't live indoors forever, with an economy going down the toilet.

JP Liz V1 · 17-03-2020 5:30pm

As confirmed cases grow, it will last longer than March 29th

I feel for anyone living alone not even online

trapp · 17-03-2020 5:37pm

Balf wrote: »

I don't agree. For some, it's only prudent to isolate.

For the rest, unsustainable.

Current approach only makes sense if we prioritise this over absolutely everything else.

This is not the only challenge facing people. Its just the one that, for some reason, finds it can get to the top of the political agenda.

The current approach is currently the best option to save lives.

But it means that many young people will be left unemployed, without any outlets, financially dependent on the state, no possibility of owning their own home etc.

The gap between the haves and have nots will become enormous.

Somewhere along the line society breaks down if this continues indefinitely

trapp · 17-03-2020 5:40pm

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Corona virus could become like tuberculosis, polio or malaria in some countries.

A fact of life that cannot be 100% eradicated, but won't stop people from getting on with their lives.

We can't live indoors forever, with an economy going down the toilet.

But we won't hear this side to the story because the media and doctors etc won't report it as it won't affect them, their jobs will still exist.

The politicians, doctors and nurses are doing their best in an impossible situation.

But society will not function under current restrictions for too long.

How long will the current restrictions last in France?

Law and order could break down all over Europe by July.

Anyone who doesn't think that's a possibility has their head in the sand.

Balf · 17-03-2020 5:47pm

trapp wrote: »

The current approach is currently the best option to save lives.

I agree with your sentiment, but I think we have to reflect on what that means.

Best option to reduce the number of deaths from that single cause, at least in theory (I'm thinking of that magic graph that shows the number of cases curve staying just below available capacity if we go along with all this nonsense. How fortunate its so symmetrical!)

But the wider impact is nuts.

trapp · 17-03-2020 5:57pm

Balf wrote: »

I agree with your sentiment, but I think we have to reflect on what that means.

Best option to reduce the number of deaths from that single cause, at least in theory (I'm thinking of that magic graph that shows the number of cases curve staying just below available capacity if we go along with all this nonsense. How fortunate its so symmetrical!)

But the wider impact is nuts.

Fully agree.

And repeat, we may not hear about the wider impact because it won't affect the media, politicians or those involved in medicine.

Everything across Europe is focused on one thing.

But the end game is not in sight.

People are being effectively asked to become prisoners in their own homes, dependent on the state, for months on end.

The only result of this, across Europe, is anarchy.

AulWan · 17-03-2020 6:50pm

Balf wrote: »

Current approach only makes sense if we prioritise this over absolutely everything else.
.

Prioritising this over absolutely everything else, is exactly what we are supposed to do. Even if it takes six months or longer.

The country will recover. But splitting up the population up into two seperate camps will not work.

There is no way to completely isolate one from the other.

All it would take is one infection to start the whole thing off again.

Social distancing Megathread

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