Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

prawnsambo · 02-01-2018 8:36pm

Lads, you can't use an acronym in a sentence and not have the sentence work with the words the acronym stands for. Basic stuff here, you're not covering yourselves in glory. A bit like Ulster.

02-01-2018 8:37pm

Over the years I've worked with some people that just didn't give a damn. Didn't try and had to be constantly managed to get anything done. Their lack of bother seeped into everything they did and nothing would really ever phase them.

I've also worked with people that cared too much. People that would work themselves into the ground if you let them, and would be swelling with anxiety if they weren't performing.

Les Kiss strikes me as much closer to the latter. It's possible that he may be out of his depth but I don't see someone that isn't trying. His words and demeanour after the Connacht game would suggest that the troubles facing Ulster are very much affecting him personally.

He is trying to get a serially under performing team to perform whilst struggling to manage an incredibly difficult and almost unprecedented situation with injuries and unavailability of players.

I think anyone who is genuinely calling for him to 'f**k off' should really be ashamed of themselves. He doesn't deserve anything like that kind of rhetoric thrown at him.

People would do well to remember, this is not soccer.

jacothelad · 02-01-2018 8:43pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Folk songs and treason?

Folk Off....The Menu.:D

Zzippy · 02-01-2018 9:03pm

Who Gibbes a FOLK?

stephen_n · 02-01-2018 9:21pm

The way things are going should the thread title not be Leinster “B” Team Les be having you?

Utah_Saint · 02-01-2018 9:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Over the years I've worked with some people that just didn't give a damn. Didn't try and had to be constantly managed to get anything done. Their lack of bother seeped into everything they did and nothing would really ever phase them.

I've also worked with people that cared too much. People that would work themselves into the ground if you let them, and would be swelling with anxiety if they weren't performing.

Les Kiss strikes me as much closer to the latter. It's possible that he may be out of his depth but I don't see someone that isn't trying. His words and demeanour after the Connacht game would suggest that the troubles facing Ulster are very much affecting him personally.

He is trying to get a serially under performing team to perform whilst struggling to manage an incredibly difficult and almost unprecedented situation with injuries and unavailability of players.

I think anyone who is genuinely calling for him to 'f**k off' should really be ashamed of themselves. He doesn't deserve anything like that kind of rhetoric thrown at him.

People would do well to remember, this is not soccer.

I don't doubt Les is trying his best but it looks like his best it's just good enough. Not a single Ulster fan wishes ill will on Les but the team are a state and are getting much worse.

prawnsambo · 02-01-2018 9:43pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I don't doubt Les is trying his best but it looks like his best it's just good enough. Not a single Ulster fan wishes ill will on Les but the team are a state and are getting much worse.

While utterly failing to see that the problems are not of his making?

Whatever about the first half, and accepting that the red card made it an easier job, the comeback in the second half was already in motion at that stage and there were a lot of positives about how Ulster went about winning that match. Not least that only four tackles were missed in the entire match. Pack was mauled and scrummaged off the pitch, but did you expect any better from that unit?

Utah_Saint · 02-01-2018 9:52pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I don't doubt Les is trying his best but it looks like his best it's just good enough. Not a single Ulster fan wishes ill will on Les but the team are a state and are getting much worse.

While utterly failing to see that the problems are not of his making?

Whatever about the first half, and accepting that the red card made it an easier job, the comeback in the second half was already in motion at that stage and there were a lot of positives about how Ulster went about winning that match. Not least that only four tackles were missed in the entire match. Pack was mauled and scrummaged off the pitch, but did you expect any better from that unit?

Certainly some things are out of kiss's control but he's coming up on 3 years in charge and things have been getting progressively worse. Particularly around the area where he is a specialist.

prawnsambo · 02-01-2018 9:58pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Certainly some things are out of kiss's control but he's coming up on 3 years in charge and things have been getting progressively worse. Particularly around the area where he is a specialist.

Four missed tackles in an entire match? Against Munster?

But yes, I've seen a good few of Ulster's matches this season and some of the input, especially from experienced players has been laughably bad. But I don't blame the coach for that. That's an attitude issue and that's down to players who know they won't be dropped because they're internationals or because they have no real competition. So they can phone it in when it suits them and there's the square root of feck all Kiss can do about it without making bizarre selections.

Oh... wait...

b.gud · 02-01-2018 10:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: A,Les-gory of the Cave
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: The Best is yet to Callum
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Jonno and the Hendersons
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Dibs on Gibbs
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: If you poach Ross Byrne I'll be piiiisssed
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Rodney you plonker
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Friends don't let friends double team
Ulster Team Talk Thread III: That escalated quickly

Here I fixed the ordering for you

Sinbad_NI · 02-01-2018 10:43pm

Ulster says FOLK

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-01-2018 2:03am

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Certainly some things are out of kiss's control but he's coming up on 3 years in charge and things have been getting progressively worse. Particularly around the area where he is a specialist.

To be honest I think this has been Ulster's best season for a while. Sitting 3rd in their conference and looking like European qualification is on. Sure it could fall to pieces later on but given everything it's not a bad season so far. Yes there have been bad games but the overall picture is somewhat positive.

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 8:57am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Certainly some things are out of kiss's control but he's coming up on 3 years in charge and things have been getting progressively worse. Particularly around the area where he is a specialist.

To be honest I think this has been Ulster's best season for a while. Sitting 3rd in their conference and looking like European qualification is on. Sure it could fall to pieces later on but given everything it's not a bad season so far. Yes there have been bad games but the overall picture is somewhat positive.

Call me old fashion but our best season so far would be winning both and playing well with a good crop of players coming through to push the 1st 15. Far too long with have accepted being number 3/4 in Ireland. it's Rickie Bobby for me "if you ain't first......"

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 8:58am

With Jim Mallinder now free we could do worse in my opinion.

stephen_n · 03-01-2018 9:17am

$ausage$ wrote: »

Call me old fashion but our best season so far would be winning both and playing well with a good crop of players coming through to push the 1st 15. Far too long with have accepted being number 3/4 in Ireland. it's Rickie Bobby for me "if you ain't first......"

And changing the management yet again will change that how? It will still be the same players, with the same attitude problems. The same lack of squad depth and weakness in key positions. Literally just kicking the can down the road again, bringing in someone else to blame and starting the cycle yet again.

molloyjh · 03-01-2018 9:41am

stephen_n wrote: »

And changing the management yet again will change that how? It will still be the same players, with the same attitude problems. The same lack of squad depth and weakness in key positions. Literally just kicking the can down the road again, bringing in someone else to blame and starting the cycle yet again.

I have to admit to being in 2 minds over the whole thing. Kiss' position will become untenable if it hasn't already. It's a crappy outcome given the crappy position he is in, but if performances continue the way they have been going then it will be hard to justify keeping him on regardless. Ulster have most certainly been guilty of under performing and if he can't fix that then Ulster need someone who can, even if the issue lies with the players and not the coaches.

That said they have made some very good signings for next season already. They are shoring up the pack in a big way and that could go a long way towards fixing at least some of the issues up there. Part of me thinks the guy needs to be given a proper shot at this. You don't fix up a club with that many issues in a season or two. And bear in mind that this is his first season with a coaching team that he has selected. I don't think he's helping himself by not being more honest with the media about where they stand and where he's looking to take them. Maybe if he was he might win over some support and get people on board with what he's trying to do. Assuming of course there is a longer term plan there.

jacothelad · 03-01-2018 10:10am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

To be honest I think this has been Ulster's best season for a while. Sitting 3rd in their conference and looking like European qualification is on. Sure it could fall to pieces later on but given everything it's not a bad season so far. Yes there have been bad games but the overall picture is somewhat positive.

Sorry Ciaran, this is simply wrong. Have a brief look at the league history, tries conceded, scored etc and you'll see what is wrong. Ulster had very good defence records and a very effective rush defence until Kiss took over and seemed to change to an outdated narrow, drifting, crablike defence that simply doesn't work. This is not rugby league. Same players by and large but totally different outcomes. Defence wins games. Then we have Loonytoon selections with no rational reason for most of them. Unneeded changes week after week. No obvious game strategy.

WE watched guys who previously had been very capable without being world beaters getting bull rooted by Munster's second string forwards. The unlamented Clarke may have had poor personal relations with his colleagues but by feck the forwards didn't impersonate the fairy at the bottom of the garden.

There are many structural fault-lines that have been allowed to develop over the years at Ulster. These are mainly I believe, due to bad management and stupid signings, many of whom never even played for Ulster, simply getting well paid for feck all. Then there are the signings that appear to be made simply because a player was on a team squad in England or somewhere else. Most of these guys were never actually investigated properly before getting anointed and being given a BMW. How many arrived with serious injuries that made them unfit even before they were signed.

The guys in the Academy may as well be situated in Siberia for all the opportunities they are given. How dispiriting must that be.

irishbucsfan · 03-01-2018 10:21am

Actually, NI used to be a great source of coaches. I've had some great coaches come down from there, a lot of them seem to me to be the legacy of Harry Williams and that generation, a few Bangor men I seem to remember. Maybe they've all left now.

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 10:46am

jacothelad wrote: »

WE watched guys who previously had been very capable without being world beaters getting bull rooted by Munster's second string forwards. The unlamented Clarke may have had poor personal relations with his colleagues but by feck the forwards didn't impersonate the fairy at the bottom of the garden.

Your two starting props on Monday were Ah You who was on his first start after a long injury lay off. The other was McCall who was on his first start after an even longer injury lay off. Your locks were on their 11th and 12th starts respectively and your flankers were an academy player and a guy who was... yes... on his first start after a long injury lay off whilst your number eight was yet another academy player.

That was Ulster's pack.

sydthebeat · 03-01-2018 10:58am

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: A Les being FOLK song

Buer · 03-01-2018 11:10am

It has to be Les Miserables. It works for both the coaching team and the support so perfectly.

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 11:12am

Buer wrote: »

It has to be Les Miserables. It works for both the coaching team and the support so perfectly.

Yeah. I agree. It could at a stretch be Les's Miserables too.

jacothelad · 03-01-2018 11:26am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Your two starting props on Monday were Ah You who was on his first start after a long injury lay off. The other was McCall who was on his first start after an even longer injury lay off. Your locks were on their 11th and 12th starts respectively and your flankers were an academy player and a guy who was... yes... on his first start after a long injury lay off whilst your number eight was yet another academy player.

That was Ulster's pack.

Yes it was but you are misleading the situation to some extent. Our starting props are experienced players. Both have performed to a high level, especially McCall. He would be seen as our N0.1 L/H. Ah Feck has even been capped. O'Connor has 12 / 15 starts this season and 55 in total. Treadwell is a capped international with 34 appearances for Ulster including 11 / 13 starts this season, 4 of those being in the ERC. The stats you have used are for this season only.

I suspect that any other coach would have started the game with Black and Herbst and brought on the returning guys late in the game, or he could have played Warwick on either side. That is generally the way these things are managed. The back row was as you say an inexperienced unit with only Deysel being a 'veteran' but again Kiss could have started Diack with over 200 caps in the back row with Deysel and Timoney. He could then have brought on the young guys later.

As it worked out, the young fellows got into the speed of the game after a while and perhaps is an indication that giving them a chance is the feckin' reason for their existence inn the first place. Ulster have rarely given Academy guys any chance unlike the other three provinces who regularly do it and discover fine players as a result. I reckon if JVDF, Conan etc had been at Ulster they would never have seen the light of day. Yet another major problem at Ravenspan. Many fans lament the lack of 'home grown' guys in the forwards. Well if the young ones are never exposed to the high intensity games then they are never going to make it....and they then get binned having had 3 years of their lives wasted. We see them appear on rare occasions, they do o.k. or better and they are never seen again for months or even years.

bilston · 03-01-2018 11:53am

Ulster Team Talk Thread III : We only moan when we're winning

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 11:56am

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes it was but you are misleading the situation to some extent. Our starting props are experienced players. Both have performed to a high level, especially McCall. He would be seen as our N0.1 L/H. Ah Feck has even been capped. O'Connor has 12 / 15 starts this season and 55 in total. Treadwell is a capped international with 34 appearances for Ulster including 11 / 13 starts this season, 4 of those being in the ERC. The stats you have used are for this season only.

My point about the starts is that these guys are heading very close to overuse. I think O'Connor had a total of 12 starts last season and has hit that number already this season. I'm not talking about experience here, I'm talking about how a thin squad is having to be managed and why cracks can appear.

jacothelad wrote: »

I suspect that any other coach would have started the game with Black and Herbst and brought on the returning guys late in the game, or he could have played Warwick on either side. That is generally the way these things are managed. The back row was as you say an inexperienced unit with only Deysel being a 'veteran' but again Kiss could have started Diack with over 200 caps in the back row with Deysel and Timoney. He could then have brought on the young guys later.

Black might have started having had a week off against Connacht, but that followed a run of eight games including both Harlequins matches. Herbst was just off a run of three starts including both ERCC games. Warwick was an option alright but he seems to be a bench option for some reason. AFAIR he was minced by Connacht, so perhaps would have been a risk?

jacothelad wrote: »

As it worked out, the young fellows got into the speed of the game after a while and perhaps is an indication that giving them a chance is the feckin' reason for their existence inn the first place. Ulster have rarely given Academy guys any chance unlike the other three provinces who regularly do it and discover fine players as a result. I reckon if JVDF, Conan etc had been at Ulster they would never have seen the light of day. Yet another major problem at Ravenspan. Many fans lament the lack of 'home grown' guys in the forwards. Well if the young ones are never exposed to the high intensity games then they are never going to make it....and they then get binned having had 3 years of their lives wasted. We see them appear on rare occasions, they do o.k. or better and they are never seen again for months or even years.

I have no idea what sort of quality languishes in the academy, but if some academy players are being selected and working well and others are not, does that not indicate that they aren't ready? The exact same situation pertains in the Leinster academy. There are many players there who haven't been capped yet. I think it's as much as two thirds of them. And of the rest, it's maybe one or two caps apart from exceptional players like Larmour. And Leinster have a far better chance of coming up with exceptional players given the strength of rugby in the province.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-01-2018 2:34pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Sorry Ciaran, this is simply wrong. Have a brief look at the league history, tries conceded, scored etc and you'll see what is wrong.

I will agree that there are flaws. God knows it's not perfect nothing in life is. Yes there are problems with the defensive system.

On a positive side Ulster are 3rd in the league conference and 2nd in the European group.

People say there is crazy rotation going on in Ulster but I see it as them finally attempting to build depth and give players a run. There a lot of young players emerging including a few in the pack. I know the fact that these aren't Ulster born and bread is another stick to beat kiss with in some parts.

If Ulster can continue with bringing through younger players and develop a few of them to be genuine options while finishing 3rd in the league conference and second in the European group and qualifying for the European quarters I will be happy to say job done not a bad season.

Yes I don't have the highest expectations but I am seeing progress.

Also I'm incredibly impressed by signing Moore and Murphy. Someone needs massive credit for that. Whether it's kiss or gibbes I don't know but good job to whoever it is.

Buer · 03-01-2018 2:39pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't know but good job to whoever it is.

I believe they call him Nucifer up in Ulster.

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 2:39pm

stephen_n wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

Call me old fashion but our best season so far would be winning both and playing well with a good crop of players coming through to push the 1st 15. Far too long with have accepted being number 3/4 in Ireland. it's Rickie Bobby for me "if you ain't first......"

And changing the management yet again will change that how? It will still be the same players, with the same attitude problems. The same lack of squad depth and weakness in key positions. Literally just kicking the can down the road again, bringing in someone else to blame and starting the cycle yet again.

We have changed everything but one person at this stage. Surely that shows where the issue is?
Repeating the same idea and looking for different results is the definition of insane.
Keep everyone but get rid of LS. I am sure the world would not collapse around us if there is no DoR even for a while, and we let the head coach be a head coach. As for Logan... As much as I want to see they guy go if the finances are in check and doing well then there is no reason for him to take the flack.
However if he is the person LK is reporting too then he has at least some answering to do.

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 2:41pm

I would also like to see a radical overhaul of the academy. It needs to stop being the jobs for the boys and get some great young coaches with a track record of working with younger players.

The academy should also be producing coaches for the senior side as well not just players!

Edit: what I mean by young is not guys on the way down ones on the way up no matter of age

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 2:42pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

We have changed everything but one person at this stage. Surely that shows where the issue is?
Repeating the same idea and looking for different results is the definition of insane.

Ulster have changed nothing but coaches surely? Isn't changing another one exactly the kind of insanity you're describing?

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 2:49pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

We have changed everything but one person at this stage. Surely that shows where the issue is?
Repeating the same idea and looking for different results is the definition of insane.

Ulster have changed nothing but coaches surely? Isn't changing another one exactly the kind of insanity you're describing?

They have taken in players too. They changed the whole setup last year of coaches. I am not saying take one in, I am saying get rid of a DiR and let the coaches coach.
JB is Head coach as a title so he can get x amount of money in the wage structure. So why is he not doing more? The money saved without the DiR could be put into other things like accadment setup.

molloyjh · 03-01-2018 2:52pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ulster have changed nothing but coaches surely? Isn't changing another one exactly the kind of insanity you're describing?

Yep. There's been quite a lot of change at all levels in the Ulster set up these last few years. McLaughlin, Anscombe, Humphries, Doak and Clarke in the last 5 years off the top of my head. The one thing Ulster haven't done is stuck with a coach through tough times with a longer term plan in place. The latter part being the most important part.

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 2:53pm

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

molloyjh · 03-01-2018 3:05pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

That's head coach though rather than DoR. But it is interesting that none of those have lasted more than 2 seasons and that the current set-up is currently faring pretty well in the win % column (although that will probably change as time goes on).

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 3:10pm

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 3:12pm

molloyjh wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ulster have changed nothing but coaches surely? Isn't changing another one exactly the kind of insanity you're describing?

Yep. There's been quite a lot of change at all levels in the Ulster set up these last few years. McLaughlin, Anscombe, Humphries, Doak and Clarke in the last 5 years off the top of my head. The one thing Ulster haven't done is stuck with a coach through tough times with a longer term plan in place. The latter part being the most important part.

Kiss has had 4 years at different levels. 4 years is longer than most other coaches get. Have you really seen an improvement over the last 4 years?

prawnsambo · 03-01-2018 3:16pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

They have taken in players too. They changed the whole setup last year of coaches. I am not saying take one in, I am saying get rid of a DiR and let the coaches coach.
JB is Head coach as a title so he can get x amount of money in the wage structure. So why is he not doing more? The money saved without the DiR could be put into other things like accadment setup.

There are always going to be changes in playing personnel. That's part of the normal picture in any club.

One of the major changes that I can see from the outside is an improvement in the kinds of players that are being recruited. John Cooney, Jordi Murphy, Marty Moore are all very good quality signings and a lot better than the scrapings of the Championship/lower English leagues that seemed to be a feature in the past. There also seems to be a willingness to recruit into the academy from outside the province where there's a lack of an alternative from within.

irishfan9 · 03-01-2018 3:28pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

There are always going to be changes in playing personnel. That's part of the normal picture in any club.

One of the major changes that I can see from the outside is an improvement in the kinds of players that are being recruited. John Cooney, Jordi Murphy, Marty Moore are all very good quality signings and a lot better than the scrapings of the Championship/lower English leagues that seemed to be a feature in the past. There also seems to be a willingness to recruit into the academy from outside the province where there's a lack of an alternative from within.

Or putting it another way, a reliance on players from leinster to provide both forwards for the academy and first team forwards.

Buer · 03-01-2018 3:33pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

When you think back to their European campaigns, it's not that surprising. They were absolutely dominant in their pools winning 11/12 games under him. It should have been a clean sweep too if it wasn't for a poor loss at home to Northampton.

wp_rathead · 03-01-2018 3:37pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Or putting it another way, a reliance on players from leinster to provide both forwards for the academy and first team forwards.

You're obsessed

$ausage$ · 03-01-2018 3:52pm

Buer wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

When you think back to their European campaigns, it's not that surprising. They were absolutely dominant in their pools winning 11/12 games under him. It should have been a clean sweep too if it wasn't for a poor loss at home to Northampton.

Think back? As a avid Ulster fan I use the Men in Black device every Sunday night so that I do not have to go through the week frowning, and swearing under my breath at my wife and co workers.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-01-2018 3:54pm

irishfan9 wrote: »

Or putting it another way, a reliance on players from leinster to provide both forwards for the academy and first team forwards.

Which is a big reason as to why the folk movement is getting so much momentum online. Yes players are coming through the academy but they are outsiders. Worse they are Leinstermen.

03-01-2018 4:18pm

Why was Anscombe run out of town again?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-01-2018 4:22pm

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

Why was Anscombe run out of town again?

Either because fans hated him of because of John Afoa threatening to take paternity leave. And anscomb giving in to his demands.

bilston · 03-01-2018 4:40pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

So the current regime is the 2nd best we've had in the professional era...and that's despite all the injuries and unavailable young gentlemen...

Look I've been up and down with Kiss. After the Connacht game I wanted him gone. At half time the other night I would have paid for his flight back to Australia myself, but in the cold light of day I'd still be inclined to let him see the season out (which is what is going to happen anyway) and take stock then.

Of course it's going to hard for him (or anyone) without an out half for the final 40% of the season...

Former Former · 03-01-2018 4:46pm

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

Why was Anscombe run out of town again?

It was reported that 'player power' was behind it.

The guy left just a couple of months after getting an extension and he is still very, very bitter about the way things went.

awec · 03-01-2018 4:47pm

There were off field issues with Anscombe that lost him the dressing room.

molloyjh · 03-01-2018 5:42pm

$ausage$ wrote: »

Kiss has had 4 years at different levels. 4 years is longer than most other coaches get. Have you really seen an improvement over the last 4 years?

Has he had 4 years? He was still working with Ireland up to and including the 2015 RWC. He only really got his feet under the table after that. And that was just over 2 years ago. Basically he's had 1 full season and 2 half seasons either side of that. And for the first season and a half he had Doak and Clarke in place, whom, if memory serves, were the ones getting exactly the same reaction that Kiss is getting now. He's only had this season to date with a coaching team of his choice, and he's been dealt a pretty crappy hand for most of the season to date with injuries and absentees. Sure he hasn't helped matters at times, but I don't think it is in any way fair to say he's had 4 years.

stephen_n · 03-01-2018 7:22pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I have to admit to being in 2 minds over the whole thing. Kiss' position will become untenable if it hasn't already. It's a crappy outcome given the crappy position he is in, but if performances continue the way they have been going then it will be hard to justify keeping him on regardless. Ulster have most certainly been guilty of under performing and if he can't fix that then Ulster need someone who can, even if the issue lies with the players and not the coaches.

That said they have made some very good signings for next season already. They are shoring up the pack in a big way and that could go a long way towards fixing at least some of the issues up there. Part of me thinks the guy needs to be given a proper shot at this. You don't fix up a club with that many issues in a season or two. And bear in mind that this is his first season with a coaching team that he has selected. I don't think he's helping himself by not being more honest with the media about where they stand and where he's looking to take them. Maybe if he was he might win over some support and get people on board with what he's trying to do. Assuming of course there is a longer term plan there.

A new coach may or may not get the benefit of those signings. Then again Jono was supposed to be the messiah in terms of pack performances and yet his previous good CV is foundering at Ulster. Like Kiss who's defensive record at international level speaks for itself but Ulster can't defend. If Kiss goes, he will be replaced by someone inheriting the same group of players and maybe just maybe it's them and their attitude that's the real problem. Admittedly the Walter Mitty nature of team selection is really not helping make a good case for Kiss, but it isn't tactical problems that are leading to the bad performances. Yes it's the coaches job to turn those things around, but maybe that's an impossible task with this group.

bilston · 03-01-2018 7:44pm

It's interesting though because #sausages# own graphic shows we have lost just 4 matches all season. That's hardly a disaster. Equally awec will rightly point out that we still have a lot of hard matches to come including Leinster, Munster and the Scarlets away.

Perception seems to be a big thing with Kiss and Ulster and there is a negative perception hanging over his head and to be honest it's hard to see how he can shake that.

Even if we reach the Quarter Finals of Europe and a semi final in the Pro 14 there will be those who will sat it is because the opposition are terrible. I don't think he can win either way.

But then he has brought a lot of it on himself with some bizarre selections and the also the fact out defensive record is dreadful and this is an area he specialises in!

That said I heard something on the radio the other day regarding Pep Guardiola, someone made the point that a coach is only as good as his players. Guardiola may be the best football manager in the world...but then he always has the best team... The reality is that while Ulster have a very good 1st XV we have a pretty average squad or I suppose if I was being generous a very inexperienced squad. To be honest I'm not sure anyone could turn Ulster from water into wine.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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