Biological males in women's sport

Errashareesh · 29-09-2020 5:07pm

I'm glad it's a big laugh for some, but if you are a reasonable person and not blinded by the cult of excessive political correctness, and you really think through the ramifications, you'll realise how appalling it is.

suicide_circus · 29-09-2020 5:08pm

Who's laughing?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-09-2020 5:25pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

Who's laughing?

Probably this post, though I think ExoPolitic is being tongue-in-cheek.

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I think it is great, how men have found a way to dominate women in even their own sports leagues...

suicide_circus · 29-09-2020 5:30pm

nolivesmatter · 29-09-2020 6:34pm

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

is this April Fools...??

Horsehead Nebula? that's got ties to the mafia, that's got to go...

Not to mention how incredibly insensitive it is to all the well known horse faces of the world.

Errashareesh · 29-09-2020 9:04pm

da_miser wrote: »

Is no one looking forward to this?
I cant wait to see the carnage this will bring to womens sports, the controversy and all round śhit show it will be, will make must see TV.

And this.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Probably this post, though I think ExoPolitic is being tongue-in-cheek.

Yeah apologies if I've got them wrong. Prickly about this dystopian bat sh1ttery.

ExoPolitic · 29-09-2020 9:47pm

Errashareesh wrote: »

And this.

Yeah apologies if I've got them wrong. Prickly about this dystopian bat sh1ttery.

I just think the whole thing is funny, doesn't affect me however, I am a man.

Good luck to all the women in womens bodies who were born with their disadvantage to everybody else who may be what ever they like.

Womans sports belong to male bodies now, that's just a fact, there is no point in a woman in womans body competing when there is a male body in the running.

But genuinely, it is funny.

Errashareesh · 29-09-2020 10:02pm

I wish it was funny. It's downright sinister. Although to be fair, it would be excellent material for a comedy.

ingalway · 05-10-2020 6:48pm

2020 - the year that just gets stranger - Donald Trump Jr not afraid to defend single sex sports

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1312754324158795777?s=20

CtevenSrowder · 05-10-2020 7:02pm

ingalway wrote: »

2020 - the year that just gets stranger - Donald Trump Jr not afraid to defend single sex sports

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1312754324158795777?s=20

I agree with him but he could've left out the rubbing it in people's faces part. Comes across poorly.

jam_mac_jam · 05-10-2020 7:05pm

Great, i agree with a Trump. What a world.

Except the rubbing in people's faces. What are they meant to do? Hide?

Gruffalux · 05-10-2020 7:12pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Great, i agree with a Trump. What a world.

Among Joe Biden's campaign promises...

On his first day in office, Biden will reinstate the Obama-Biden guidance revoked by the Trump-Pence Administration, which will restore transgender students’ access to sports, bathrooms, and locker rooms in accordance with their gender identity.

https://joebiden.com/lgbtq-policy/#

ProfessorPlum · 09-10-2020 6:39pm

New guidelines from World Rugby are out.
Haven’t read fully, but it seems sanity is prevailing, and safety and fairness are being prioritised.

https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1314597625426046979?s=21

https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/gender

Hand in Your Pants · 09-10-2020 6:45pm

Errashareesh wrote: »

I wish it was funny. It's downright sinister. Although to be fair, it would be excellent material for a comedy.

Hi would you consider changing your avatar? Only it is commonly associated by all on the forum with a cute female poster of high caliber who shoots from the hip and asks questions later (alas she already has a male)

if you are listening, I would happily step in as provider and companion

jam_mac_jam · 09-10-2020 7:27pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

New guidelines from World Rugby are out.
Haven’t read fully, but it seems sanity is prevailing, and safety and fairness are being prioritised.

https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1314597625426046979?s=21

https://playerwelfare.worldrugby.org/gender

That's brilliant news. Especially in such a dangerous sport. Hopefully other sports will follow suit.

ingalway · 11-10-2020 1:37pm

Won many races as a boy/young man. Told he's not good enough for the men's team so magically becomes a trans woman.
Imagine how disheartening this is for women and young girl athletes. Why would you bother.
https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/cycling/news/15264/12101251/emily-bridges-coming-out-as-trans-in-cycling-is-a-crucial-step-on-my-journey

Gervais08 · 11-10-2020 2:37pm

ingalway wrote: »

Won many races as a boy/young man. Told he's not good enough for the men's team so magically becomes a trans woman.
Imagine how disheartening this is for women and young girl athletes. Why would you bother.
https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/cycling/news/15264/12101251/emily-bridges-coming-out-as-trans-in-cycling-is-a-crucial-step-on-my-journey

Stunning and brave .... /sarcasm

Gruffalux · 11-10-2020 3:43pm

ingalway wrote: »

Won many races as a boy/young man. Told he's not good enough for the men's team so magically becomes a trans woman.
Imagine how disheartening this is for women and young girl athletes. Why would you bother.
https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/cycling/news/15264/12101251/emily-bridges-coming-out-as-trans-in-cycling-is-a-crucial-step-on-my-journey

2 things that struck me about that article. How he mentions wanting dresses and feminine things at 13, and how he really wanted to wear makeup and feminine clothes as he grew older etc. This is such a linking factor in a lot of these stories. It is odd because as a woman I literally never had that feeling as a girl. I wanted jeans and doc martens and sweatshirts - practical clothes that gave me freedom. I never even thought about makeup or hair stuff, and not because I am masculine. The opposite, I am feminine. But it was just never a thing that entered my head. And I did not see it among my sisters. Or my friends. Prissiness was just not a big thing at all when I was young. Maybe it is more so now. Maybe it is to do with growing sexualisation of younger people? I don't know. I think it is autogynophelia in this case.

The other thing is the language he starts using, the tropes of the day - how cycling is the preserve of middle aged, middle class white males. Yawn. How fecken boring and predictable. What catechism have they been reading?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 11-10-2020 4:22pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

2 things that struck me about that article. How he mentions wanting dresses and feminine things at 13, and how he really wanted to wear makeup and feminine clothes as he grew older etc. This is such a linking factor in a lot of these stories. It is odd because as a woman I literally never had that feeling as a girl. I wanted jeans and doc martens and sweatshirts - practical clothes that gave me freedom. I never even thought about makeup or hair stuff, and not because I am masculine. The opposite, I am feminine. [/b]But it was just never a thing that entered my head. And I did not see it among my sisters. Or my friends. Prissiness was just not a big thing at all when I was young. [/b]Maybe it is more so now. Maybe it is to do with growing sexualisation of younger people? I don't know. I think it is autogynophelia in this case.

The other thing is the language he starts using, the tropes of the day - how cycling is the preserve of middle aged, middle class white males. Yawn. How fecken boring and predictable. What catechism have they been reading?

Ah no, in fairness, a lot of little girls love make up and girly clothes. I knew field like that when I was a kid and still do. I liked lots of girly things myself.

Gervais08 · 11-10-2020 4:31pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ah no, in fairness, a lot of little girls love make up and girly clothes. I knew field like that when I was a kid and still do. I liked lots of girly things myself.

I see both - I've been a total tomboy all my life; yet I’ve a friend who’s son who loves dressing as her off the Little Mermaid and his sister is the girliest girl you ever met.

No one is trans, no one is questioning their gender identity - all just arsing our way through life with a quirk or two that makes life interesting.

That lad should be nowhere near women’s sports.

Gruffalux · 11-10-2020 4:35pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ah no, in fairness, a lot of little girls love make up and girly clothes. I knew field like that when I was a kid and still do. I liked lots of girly things myself.

I getcha. I was a country child, with a lot of brothers.

And I am still not into girl stuff. But the thing I suppose is there is this always this underlying thread in the stories - I felt like a girl is always followed by I wanted to wear dresses and have sparkly things and wear make up. I don't think that is what it ''feels'' like to be a girl. That could only ever be a small specific aspect of what it ''feels'' like to be a girl. It is a huge amount of things to feel like a girl - and a boy. The clothes etc are (ironically) just a gender expression thing. How can they be a defining quality that enables people to recognise they ''feel'' like a sex?

batman_oh · 12-10-2020 9:17am

Gruffalux wrote: »

The other thing is the language he starts using, the tropes of the day - how cycling is the preserve of middle aged, middle class white males. Yawn. How fecken boring and predictable. What catechism have they been reading?

This bit is hilarious in how stupidly ironic it is. Men's sport will not be affected in any way as no women will transition across and be able to compete. Women's sport will be destroyed by people like this and somehow that's sticking it to the middle aged white man? :pac:
Idiots!

ProfessorPlum · 14-10-2020 1:51pm

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-clears-trans-women-to-play-womens-rugby-at-all-levels-in-england

Well that’s bloody disappointing!

“However, the RFU’s view, which is understood to be supported by several other countries, is that more work is needed to assess whether there are safe ways to allow trans women to keep playing the sport they love.“

But in the mean time, despite the fact that World Rugby believe it’s unsafe, f**k women players and their right to safety and fairness.

I hope the IRFU can stand up to this rewriting of biology and stand up for the thousands of women and girls who love their sport and want to be able to continue to play safely.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-10-2020 2:09pm

I hate that we basically have to wait for something bad to happen for the general public to become aware of this issue.

J.O. Farmer · 14-10-2020 2:19pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-clears-trans-women-to-play-womens-rugby-at-all-levels-in-england

Well that’s bloody disappointing!

“However, the RFU’s view, which is understood to be supported by several other countries, is that more work is needed to assess whether there are safe ways to allow trans women to keep playing the sport they love.“

But in the mean time, despite the fact that World Rugby believe it’s unsafe, f**k women players and their right to safety and fairness.

I hope the IRFU can stand up to this rewriting of biology and stand up for the thousands of women and girls who love their sport and want to be able to continue to play safely.

The logic is buzzards. World rugby has determined that something poses a safety risk to players and the RFU decide we'll continue to do it until there's more evidence it's unsafe.

In any other situation the approach would be to err on the side of safety and stop the activity until there is evidence it's not unsafe.

It seems the rights of a transgender minority to play sport is more important than potential injuries to the majority biological females.

ProfessorPlum · 14-10-2020 2:27pm

It’s completely backwards logic. It will take a serious injury, or a series of them to get people to take notice. And even that might not happen, as these issues are getting almost no coverage in the Irish media. Apart from the42.ie/journal I didn’t see World Rugby guidelines mentioned anywhere.

It’s a taboo. It’s bloody ridiculous.
I wonder do most parents realise their daughters might be playing against trans girls?

jam_mac_jam · 14-10-2020 2:33pm

They are also leaving themselves open to legal claims if there is a serious injury because of this. Unfortunate that they have to take the feelings of a few over women's safety.

Gervais08 · 14-10-2020 2:34pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

It’s completely backwards logic. It will take a serious injury, or a series of them to get people to take notice. And even that might not happen, as these issues are getting almost no coverage in the Irish media. Apart from the42.ie/journal I didn’t see World Rugby guidelines mentioned anywhere.

It’s a taboo. It’s bloody ridiculous.
I wonder do most parents realise their daughters might be playing against trans girls?

My friend’s daughter is soccer mad, but at 9/10 had to stop playing in a mixed team and play in a female team - because boys and girls are physically different, blokes are stronger!!!

Ffs is it going to take paralysis or brain damage before the woke crowd f**king see sense ???

Or are rhe feelings of a few men worth more than women’s safety ???

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-10-2020 2:39pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

It’s completely backwards logic. It will take a serious injury, or a series of them to get people to take notice. And even that might not happen, as these issues are getting almost no coverage in the Irish media. Apart from the42.ie/journal I didn’t see World Rugby guidelines mentioned anywhere.

It’s a taboo. It’s bloody ridiculous.
I wonder do most parents realise their daughters might be playing against trans girls?

This won’t get highlighted by the Irish media because it undermines the whole self-ID thing

ProfessorPlum · 14-10-2020 3:01pm

Gervais08 wrote: »

My friend’s daughter is soccer mad, but at 9/10 had to stop playing in a mixed team and play in a female team - because boys and girls are physically different, blokes are stronger!!!

Ffs is it going to take paralysis or brain damage before the woke crowd f**king see sense ???

Or are rhe feelings of a few men worth more than women’s safety ???

The GAA also have rules about juvenile players on mixed teams - m not sure of the age, but around 12 years. It’s to facilitate small clubs who don’t have the numbers to field a full team. And the reason they gave it is, not surprisingly on safety grounds. And even then, it’s the girl who takes on the risk!

Self ID not only makes a mockery of the rule, but it really does endanger our kids. They should have kept the exemption for sport.

keano_afc · 14-10-2020 3:06pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-clears-trans-women-to-play-womens-rugby-at-all-levels-in-england

Well that’s bloody disappointing!

“However, the RFU’s view, which is understood to be supported by several other countries, is that more work is needed to assess whether there are safe ways to allow trans women to keep playing the sport they love.“

But in the mean time, despite the fact that World Rugby believe it’s unsafe, f**k women players and their right to safety and fairness.

I hope the IRFU can stand up to this rewriting of biology and stand up for the thousands of women and girls who love their sport and want to be able to continue to play safely.

I think we both know that the IRFU will do exactly the same. We have self-id here, as opposed to the UK. The IRFU might be leaving themselves open to litigation if they try safeguard women's rugby.

ProfessorPlum · 14-10-2020 3:10pm

keano_afc wrote: »

I think we both know that the IRFU will do exactly the same. We have self-id here, as opposed to the UK. The IRFU might be leaving themselves open to litigation if they try safeguard women's rugby.

I hope you’re wrong, but the lack of a sports exemption in the GRA leaves sports bodies in a difficult position.

On the back of WR guidelines the IRFU should be able to cite the safety reasons.
They’re damned if they do (enraged TRA pile on) and damned if they don’t (the inevitable injuries that they’ll be defending)

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-10-2020 3:10pm

keano_afc wrote: »

I think we both know that the IRFU will do exactly the same. We have self-id here, as opposed to the UK. The IRFU might be leaving themselves open to litigation if they try safeguard women's rugby.

Yup, that’s the problem. They have to allow declared women to play with women.

Gruffalux · 14-10-2020 3:40pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

. They should have kept the exemption for sport.

There can be no exemption because it contravenes the ideology that ttanswomen are women or transmen are men.
One way might be to divide sport between categories of people who have undergone female puberty and those who have undergone male puberty or part thereof.

ProfessorPlum · 14-10-2020 4:01pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

There can be no exemption because it contravenes the ideology that ttanswomen are women or transmen are men.
One way might be to divide sport between categories of people who have undergone female puberty and those who have undergone male puberty or part thereof.

They would argue that trans women are women and as women they went through a female puberty - loaded and all as it was with testosterone.

I think just stick to actually biology. Women’s sports are for women. Trans women are trans women. Equally valid humans, but not the same as biological women.

mr_fegelien · 14-10-2020 5:03pm

Am I right in saying that if a 'transwoman' is chemically castrated/transitions before puberty then the difference between them and a biological woman is negligible?

An endocrinologist on Joe Rogan was saying the reason why transwomen are still stronger than biological women after transitioning is because the vast majority of them due it in their teens/20s where testosterone has already caused irreversible changes to bone density/muscle mass. If however they transition before secondary sex characteristics develop. then they will be as weak as a woman.

ceadaoin. · 14-10-2020 5:10pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if a 'transwoman' is chemically castrated/transitions before puberty then the difference between them and a biological woman is negligible?

An endocrinologist on Joe Rogan was saying the reason why transwomen are still stronger than biological women after transitioning is because the vast majority of them due it in their teens/20s where testosterone has already caused irreversible changes to bone density/muscle mass. If however they transition before secondary sex characteristics develop. then they will be as weak as a woman.

They would probably be as weak as a child if they never go through puberty and would be highly unlikely to have the potential to be competitive in sports anyway.

Oh and also, children should not be "castrated" and allowed to make the choice to permanently alter their bodies. Most would argue that is highly unethical and there is already major pushback happening against those who advocate for it. Pushing children into transitioning is not the solution to the problem of males competing in womens sports.

volchitsa · 14-10-2020 5:45pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if a 'transwoman' is chemically castrated/transitions before puberty then the difference between them and a biological woman is negligible?

An endocrinologist on Joe Rogan was saying the reason why transwomen are still stronger than biological women after transitioning is because the vast majority of them due it in their teens/20s where testosterone has already caused irreversible changes to bone density/muscle mass. If however they transition before secondary sex characteristics develop. then they will be as weak as a woman.

At best they will be somewhere in between the male strength they would have had and the strength they'd have had if they'd been born a girl. Even before birth some bones are bigger and heavier in boys than in girls, and the difference increases during the first year of life. It doesn't just begin at puberty.

Oh and that's ignoring the ethical issues with doing something so drastic to a prepubertal child, as that has already been pointed out.

Richard Hillman · 14-10-2020 5:53pm

The RFU are playing a dangerous game. They know if they say no to this and go with world rugby, there will be a pile-on with the sponsors. So they are taking the chance that there won't be any male competitors and is there was, there wouldn't be any serious injury to be sued for.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 14-10-2020 6:11pm

mr_fegelien wrote: »

Am I right in saying that if a 'transwoman' is chemically castrated/transitions before puberty then the difference between them and a biological woman is negligible?

An endocrinologist on Joe Rogan was saying the reason why transwomen are still stronger than biological women after transitioning is because the vast majority of them due it in their teens/20s where testosterone has already caused irreversible changes to bone density/muscle mass. If however they transition before secondary sex characteristics develop. then they will be as weak as a woman.

But that involves giving puberty blockers to children. Forgive me if I’m not jumping for joy at the thought of that.

ingalway · 20-10-2020 3:40pm

Spot the difference:
https://twitter.com/SHFan1985/status/1318355086922403841?s=19

Gruffalux · 20-10-2020 3:54pm

ingalway wrote: »

Spot the difference:
https://twitter.com/SHFan1985/status/1318355086922403841?s=19

The skeletal differences are huge in themselves. For the same reason we can push babies out from our pelvis, we also should not carry super heavy weights as the female is more prone to prolapse of organs due to less support and enclosure of pelvic girdle. And that iliac crest - most women know what it feels like if you lift too much - it can feel like it opens and boy is it sore. All of this alone also totally changes how we move and how we CAN move, more to the point.

mohawk · 21-10-2020 5:36pm

keano_afc wrote: »

I think we both know that the IRFU will do exactly the same. We have self-id here, as opposed to the UK. The IRFU might be leaving themselves open to litigation if they try safeguard women's rugby.

IRFU could be between rock and a hard place here. One one hand the science is clear that there is an increased injury risk so they have risk of litigation and on the other we have Self-ID and so they are at risk of litigation.

ProfessorPlum · 04-11-2020 6:04pm

https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1323999693798580226?s=21

Link to a podcast by Ross Tucker (World Rugby) taking about the process and evidence that WR looked at and how they arrived at their conclusions.
Really worth listening to if the evidence is something that interests you.

ProfessorPlum · 07-11-2020 11:48am

This is an interesting read.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-i-know-a-misogynistic-sports-policy-when-i-see-it/wcm/38fd9bb9-33dc-4d56-a042-e883cd5c032f/amp/

I had come across the cited CCES guidelines recently and they truely are bonkers.
The policy is driven by a human rights group, rather than a sporting/medical body, and it seems that nobody on the panel has any expertise in the physiological issues that surely must be front and centre when assessing safety and fairness.

https://cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/cces-transinclusionpolicyguidance-e.pdf

This is the policy that Rugby Canada have chosen to follow over World Rugby guidelines.

No reduction in testosterone needed. No ‘commitment’ to the new gender identity (you can request a change mid season, as often as you like’.

In a game where the forces put through a scrum are so dangerous wrt neck injury, that younger players are not allowed to contest a scrum, and where only players who are ‘specialist’ are allowed in the scrum, they see nothing wrong in putting a fully intact, testosterone laced male bodied player in there with women

Wibbs · 07-11-2020 11:57am

Sadly I think it'll take a tragedy happening in something like a scrum before they get jolted out of this utter insanity. They've jumped too deep into the rabbit hole now so are going for broke.

Gruffalux · 07-11-2020 12:17pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Sadly I think it'll take a tragedy happening in something like a scrum before they get jolted out of this utter insanity. They've jumped too deep into the rabbit hole now so are going for broke.

Exactly what I was going to say. But I even wonder if deaths or paralysis might be tolerated as acceptable collateral damage. Anyway let it all unfold. It is best it surfaces and displays itself. I do wish we had satirists like Jonathan Swift these days.

mynamejeff · 07-11-2020 12:35pm

I ve played rugby for many years at a relatively high level and have played front row as well as in the backs.
I ve seen many serious injuries up to and including my own broken bones, and have on occasion been in serious danger playing against bigger stronger and more experienced players in the front row.
In general people aren't trying to hurt each other but there is risk involved,
I also know a few lads who ended up with life altering injuries to head and neck. Most clubs will have a few people associated with the club that are in the same position
The club I am associated with have a AIL females section and of course I ve watched a few games in support of my club mates and play summer tag etc with them. Even helped out with a few training sessions

The idea that you can mix male and female contact sports beyond the age of 10 or so is simply far too dangerous.

Scrummaging is something that will eventually be phased out of rugby union as it becomes more like league. However as it is a biological male scrummaging against a biological female is unfair to both and horrendously dangerous.

If it is allowed the inevitable damage that will be done will result in many people wanting nothing to do with the whole thing .

kildare lad · 07-11-2020 12:57pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

I ve played rugby for many years at a relatively high level and have played front row as well as in the backs.
I ve seen many serious injuries up to and including my own broken bones, and have on occasion been in serious danger playing against bigger stronger and more experienced players in the front row.
In general people aren't trying to hurt each other but there is risk involved,
I also know a few lads who ended up with life altering injuries to head and neck. Most clubs will have a few people associated with the club that are in the same position
The club I am associated with have a AIL females section and of course I ve watched a few games in support of my club mates and play summer tag etc with them. Even helped out with a few training sessions

The idea that you can mix male and female contact sports beyond the age of 10 or so is simply far too dangerous.

Scrummaging is something that will eventually be phased out of rugby union as it becomes more like league. However as it is a biological male scrummaging against a biological female is unfair to both and horrendously dangerous.

If it is allowed the inevitable damage that will be done will result in many people wanting nothing to do with the whole thing .

I played rugby myself when I was younger and if any half decent big guy who was fit and strong, decided to transition to female, he'd look like jonah lomu playing against women . Like when does it stop ??? Say I'm 30 can I identify as a 12 year old and play minis rugby . If you can change your gender why can't you change your age ?

volchitsa · 08-11-2020 5:00pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Exactly what I was going to say. But I even wonder if deaths or paralysis might be tolerated as acceptable collateral damage. Anyway let it all unfold. It is best it surfaces and displays itself. I do wish we had satirists like Jonathan Swift these days.

Of course it will. A deeply disturbed young man who wants to murder women (and only women) was imprisoned in a women's prison purely on his say so, and people defended that. Only a minority it seems. What's a broken neck compared to rape and murder - rugby's a dangerous sport, they'll say.

Biological males in women's sport

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