EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

Seanachai · 15-04-2021 10:36am

iguana wrote: »

And you can feel free to make your own choice. But don't be surprised when other people choose not to be in a building with you.

Maybe we need to look at segregation? I only want to socialise with my close friends anyway, so I don't really care who's in the background.

FileNotFound · 15-04-2021 10:40am

Hopefully if the program is delayed, the gov can bring in some kind of system to identify vaccinated people.

At least then indoor seating in a restaurant can be capacity etc, meaning businesses can be viable again. Same with hotels and other hospitality.

Really need to get the economy moving and reduce the support payments as soon as we can.

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 11:32am

FileNotFound wrote: »

Hopefully if the program is delayed, the gov can bring in some kind of system to identify vaccinated people.

At least then indoor seating in a restaurant can be capacity etc, meaning businesses can be viable again. Same with hotels and other hospitality.

Really need to get the economy moving and reduce the support payments as soon as we can.

A simpler approach would be to race through vaccinations to that promised 80%.

FileNotFound · 15-04-2021 11:37am

is_that_so wrote: »

A simpler approach would be to race through vaccinations to that promised 80%.

Oh I entirely agree, thus i specified if the vaccine rollout is delayed.

I am all for just get it done, but sadly reality doesn't always comply with my wishes and wants.

If there is to be any major delay, I feel as a non vaccinated, not a hope of being vaccinated any time soon person that it would be important to get the economy up and running as soon as possible.

I wouldn't hold it against someone that they can sit in a tighter packed location if it meant less future tax take is needed to recover from this. It would only be for a few months anyway.

Spanish Eyes · 15-04-2021 11:38am

Sorry if this has been already covered, but IF vax certs are required are they secure and verifiable? In the back of my mind I can see a lucrative trade in bogus certs.

But I am probably overthinking it, I am sure the documents will be bulletproof evidence that you have been vaccinated.

FileNotFound · 15-04-2021 11:41am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sorry if this has been already covered, but IF vax certs are required are they secure and verifiable? In the back of my mind I can see a lucrative trade in bogus certs.

But I am probably overthinking it, I am sure the documents will be bulletproof evidence that you have been vaccinated.

There will be some scamming but like dodgy tv boxes the numbers will be small so hardly worth considering.

At least that would be my thoughts.

15-04-2021 12:57pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Hopefully if the program is delayed, the gov can bring in some kind of system to identify vaccinated people.

At least then indoor seating in a restaurant can be capacity etc, meaning businesses can be viable again. Same with hotels and other hospitality.

Really need to get the economy moving and reduce the support payments as soon as we can.

What difference will a vaccine, or identifying who is vaccinated, make to indoor dining?

FileNotFound · 15-04-2021 1:20pm

brenbrady wrote: »

What difference will a vaccine, or identifying who is vaccinated, make to indoor dining?

As Vaccines - based on whats happening in the UK at least exponentially reduce transmission then restriction on distancing would not required.

That way a restaurant could fill to standard capacity - which would make them viable.

scamalert · 15-04-2021 1:39pm

brenbrady wrote: »

What difference will a vaccine, or identifying who is vaccinated, make to indoor dining?

none, at best if its implemented it will be used as a green pass for travel, then again if you think about logistics creating manually database of 3mill people securing it, then handing over details to other eu states to use, its very unlikely, that any viable option will be created before its more likely to be scrapped as need will diminish in a year or two anyway.

since this can only work if other countries reach herd immunity and their vaccination targets on top, which at this rate is still months away, like ourselves.

better hope would be to use rapid tests and bring their cost down making traveling easier, say while one awaits at airport or can purchase in any store, eliminating massive money waste on something that will be eventually not needed.

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 1:53pm

Seems certs/passports won't be needed for a haircut!

stephenjmcd · 15-04-2021 1:54pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems certs/passports won't be needed for a haircut!

They were never going to be anyway I don't think.

The only outlet that reported it was the examiner and even at that it was such a vague article.

is_that_so · 15-04-2021 2:24pm

stephenjmcd wrote: »

They were never going to be anyway I don't think.

The only outlet that reported it was the examiner and even at that it was such a vague article.

Most of the speculation about it is impractical to apply, apart from travel and venues that would attract large crowds. Even there it's unclear how widely they might be used.

15-04-2021 3:14pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

As Vaccines - based on whats happening in the UK at least exponentially reduce transmission then restriction on distancing would not required.

That way a restaurant could fill to standard capacity - which would make them viable.

Apparently it was lockdowns and not vaccines that were the main reason for the UK drop in transmission...

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266?fbclid=IwAR1aFa3ca7v16vM5JKNuFHkLV79mlJCbgxHuzdf7QDuIDWN9xIVaaibPkmg

Ashbourne hoop · 15-04-2021 4:39pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems certs/passports won't be needed for a haircut!

It was never going to happen, it didn't stop people losing their reason on social media though.

15-04-2021 11:31pm

ah sure MHQ is falling apart and the courts cannot keep up for letting people out. Solicitors and the court of human rights etc are getting stuck in...the passports will do the same..you cannot write legislation quick enough to keep up with rushed legislation...it's a joke designed by jokers for a circus and we are all spectators at this stage.

The GOVT are looking more inept by the day now with athlete exemptions and adoptive parents being allowed in and out..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9MZUeeg2Ug&ab_channel=KannanLawFirm-Documentalista comes to mind..

FileNotFound · 15-04-2021 11:36pm

rusty cole wrote: »

ah sure MHQ is falling apart and the courts cannot keep up for letting people out. Solicitors and the court of human rights etc are getting stuck in...the passports will do the same..you cannot write legislation quick enough to keep up with rushed legislation...it's a joke designed by jokers for a circus and we are all spectators at this stage.

The GOVT are looking more inept by the day now with athlete exemptions and adoptive parents being allowed in and out..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9MZUeeg2Ug&ab_channel=KannanLawFirm-Documentalista comes to mind..

How many cases have been through the courts to completion and resulted in release.

Hadn't heard that anyone had actually won a court case against it yet. When did that happen?

Micky 32 · 16-04-2021 2:21am

brenbrady wrote: »

Apparently it was lockdowns and not vaccines that were the main reason for the UK drop in transmission...

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266?fbclid=IwAR1aFa3ca7v16vM5JKNuFHkLV79mlJCbgxHuzdf7QDuIDWN9xIVaaibPkmg

Yes that could be possible, only half the population is vaccinated and lockdowns were implemented before the vaccine roll out gathered pace.

However the fact is the vaccines work and there is no doubt in that or running away from that fact, once the masses are inoculated the cases should stay very low and stable and life for the vaccinated will go on.

paw patrol · 16-04-2021 10:08am

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

It was never going to happen, it didn't stop people losing their reason on social media though.

leo did suggest additional freedoms for vaccinated people

admittedly he suggests much vague guff but he is the Tánaiste and Taoiseach in waiting - lets not pretend it was some social media rumour

16-04-2021 12:03pm

Micky 32 wrote: »

Yes that could be possible, only half the population is vaccinated and lockdowns were implemented before the vaccine roll out gathered pace.

However the fact is the vaccines work and there is no doubt in that or running away from that fact, once the masses are inoculated the cases should stay very low and stable and life for the vaccinated will go on.

I thought that vaccines only help prevent the person vaccinated from becoming seriously ill but that you can still be infected and transmit the virus, so how does a vaccine prevent transmission?

Seanachai · 16-04-2021 12:38pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Seems certs/passports won't be needed for a haircut!

The place I go to confirmed they won't discriminate based on vaccine status, same with a physio I contacted.

arccosh · 16-04-2021 12:48pm

brenbrady wrote: »

I thought that vaccines only help prevent the person vaccinated from becoming seriously ill but that you can still be infected and transmit the virus, so how does a vaccine prevent transmission?

vaccinated or not, if you get infected, you get infected.

Vaccination is never a complete block on infection...

What it does do is prime your body to make antibodies faster to attack and kill the virus when it enters your body ....

a certain virus load therefore needs to be present before it triggers an immune response..

this is different for everyone

So some people will start to get sick before their body fights back
Others won't get noticeably sick at all while their body fights off the infection..

how it reduces infection is it reduces the time the virus has to grow an multiply in a host, to a point where large viral loads are discharged in it's usual transmission vectors (sneezing, coughing etc...)...

meaning compared to an unvaccinated person, you won't be infectious as long as they would be (if even), reducing transmission vectors and virus survivability..

growleaves · 16-04-2021 2:36pm

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

It was never going to happen, it didn't stop people losing their reason on social media though.

The fact that it was 'floated' at all means it was/is a possibility.

There have plenty of businesses and individuals pushing for it.

The average non-committal boards poster only notices people pushing back ('losing their reason') and says "These people [pushing back] are paranoid".

Ashbourne hoop · 16-04-2021 4:44pm

paw patrol wrote: »

leo did suggest additional freedoms for vaccinated people

admittedly he suggests much vague guff but he is the Tánaiste and Taoiseach in waiting - lets not pretend it was some social media rumour

Leo says a lot more than his prayers, lets be honest. For many reasons, vaccinaton passports for the likes of going for a pint or haircut was never going to work. For travel and large sporting/music events it remains a possibility, particularly travel. And even then it's likely to be proof of vaccination, negative test or previous infection. Personally I'd be ok with that.

Charles Babbage · 16-04-2021 5:05pm

brenbrady wrote: »

I thought that vaccines only help prevent the person vaccinated from becoming seriously ill but that you can still be infected and transmit the virus, so how does a vaccine prevent transmission?

There is no doubt that vaccines reduce people's transmission of the virus, although they may not eliminate it completely.

is_that_so · 16-04-2021 5:18pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is no doubt that vaccines reduce people's transmission of the virus, although they may not eliminate it completely.

That was always their primary aim, the elimination is a bonus. As I am fond of saying - 5000 cases a day and nobody in hospital is a cold!

18-04-2021 10:48pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is no doubt that vaccines reduce people's transmission of the virus, although they may not eliminate it completely.

I don't think that has been fully established. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/give-me-a-crash-course-in-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-1.4538261

Health experts say there is no definitive scientific data yet to show that vaccination prevents transmission, so that risk remains.

arccosh · 18-04-2021 11:00pm

brenbrady wrote: »

I don't think that has been fully established. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/give-me-a-crash-course-in-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-1.4538261

it reduces it through people fighting off infection faster, reducing probability of transmission, and reducing viral load if contagious ...

which has a domino effect if passed to someone vaccinated, they fight off faster, reduce transmission probability and reduce viral load if transmitted...

repeat until nothing

bfa1509 · 18-04-2021 11:21pm

brenbrady wrote: »

I don't think that has been fully established. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/give-me-a-crash-course-in-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-1.4538261

I work for a multinational medical device company and we got a talk recently from the in-house physicians who said the latest data (can't recall source) showed that the vaccines are very effective at preventing transmission.

They're probably not telling us so as to prevent the OAPs from having raves.

19-04-2021 8:13am

bfa1509 wrote: »

I work for a multinational medical device company and we got a talk recently from the in-house physicians who said the latest data (can't recall source) showed that the vaccines are very effective at preventing transmission.

They're probably not telling us so as to prevent the OAPs from having raves.

I know what you mean, a bit like this time last year when the public was told that facemasks were ineffective to prevent supply shortages.

is_that_so · 19-04-2021 8:17am

brenbrady wrote: »

I don't think that has been fully established. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/give-me-a-crash-course-in-proof-of-covid-19-vaccination-1.4538261

But they do prevent serious illness and hospitalisations, their primary aim.

19-04-2021 9:06am

is_that_so wrote: »

But they do prevent serious illness and hospitalisations, their primary aim.

I was asking about transmission in the context of a vaccine passport.

is_that_so · 19-04-2021 9:48am

brenbrady wrote: »

I was asking about transmission in the context of a vaccine passport.

It's just one of the many flaws with such passport, it can only state you've been vaccinated. For managing travel that may be enough in the short term.

19-04-2021 11:10am

is_that_so wrote: »

It's just one of the many flaws with such passport, it can only state you've been vaccinated. For managing travel that may be enough in the short term.

But why does somebody need a vaccine passport to travel if it hasn't been determined that a vaccine will reduce transmission? What does a vaccine passport achieve in that context?

arccosh · 19-04-2021 11:18am

brenbrady wrote: »

But why does somebody need a vaccine passport to travel if it hasn't been determined that a vaccine will reduce transmission? What does a vaccine passport achieve in that context?

It has been proven it reduces transmission...lots of data coming from the UK,US, and Israel the last few weeks showing this...

What hasn't been proven is that it stops transmission.... which is a pretty big ask from a vaccine, because you need to be infected to trigger an immune response, which is different in everyone...

meaning some people will get to a point of being contagious even with the vaccine...

But this number is far lower compared to people who haven't had the vaccine, hence reducing the virus

is_that_so · 19-04-2021 11:30am

brenbrady wrote: »

But why does somebody need a vaccine passport to travel if it hasn't been determined that a vaccine will reduce transmission? What does a vaccine passport achieve in that context?

A statement that they have been vaccinated and a way for Mediterranean countries, in particular, to welcome visitors this summer.

is_that_so · 22-04-2021 8:02am

A reflection on the complexities of vaccine passports.

At first glance, this might seems an excellent proposal, a source of reassurance and an important piece of public health protection.
...
On the other hand, this argument is certainly weakened when you see the significant levels of flight travel happening in the US, even during its last pandemic surge.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vaccine-passports-far-more-complicated-than-they-might-appear-1.4543793

23-04-2021 12:40pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

I work for a multinational medical device company and we got a talk recently from the in-house physicians who said the latest data (can't recall source) showed that the vaccines are very effective at preventing transmission.

They're probably not telling us so as to prevent the OAPs from having raves.

ah sure we can trust the medical device industry to give sound advise. Those vaccines were tested on healthy people who were maybe not on medication, or indeed overweight etc. What we see now is real world data, vaccines on people with underlying conditions, with diabetes, hypertension, huge BMI's and people that are on all manner of other medications that have to be and will be deemed safe for inoculation. Also the time between doses once shifted, will run contrary to original trials, whatever the new data is saying. I wouldn't be a bill gates put a chip in my arm brigade man, but I will wait for a good while to see more real world efficacy and adverse reactions, considering these are early days and we have clots albeit rare cases. how long did it take for the narcolepsy to develop post Pandermix?

arccosh · 23-04-2021 1:08pm

rusty cole wrote: »

. how long did it take for the narcolepsy to develop post Pandermix?

It was rolled out for the 2009 Swine Flu pandemic (having been tested in various forms from 2006).

Scientists started looking at the Narcolepsy link early 2010 and had substantial evidence of the link around Autumn 2010.

Around 31 million people were administered in total (some single some double). Which is going to be minute compared to the various Covid vaccines.

wadacrack · 23-04-2021 2:08pm

Seeing an article like this on RTE would give people reassurance that the vaccines are very effective and possibly relief anxiety for some people who are worried about health effects or more lockdowns looming etc

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1385580666629234688

wadacrack · 23-04-2021 2:09pm

Seeing an article like this on RTE would give people reassurance that the vaccines are very effective and possibly relief anxiety for some people who are worried about health effects or more lockdowns looming etc

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1385580666629234688

23-04-2021 2:12pm

wadacrack wrote: »

Seeing an article like this on RTE would give people reassurance that the vaccines are very effective and possibly relief anxiety for some people who are worried about health effects or more lockdowns looming etc

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1385580666629234688

so what evidence is he seeing? It's easy to see a man winning at cards when he's only showing you half of his hand. based on what studies?

FileNotFound · 23-04-2021 2:16pm

arccosh wrote: »

It was rolled out for the 2009 Swine Flu pandemic (having been tested in various forms from 2006).

Scientists started looking at the Narcolepsy link early 2010 and had substantial evidence of the link around Autumn 2010.

Around 31 million people were administered in total (some single some double). Which is going to be minute compared to the various Covid vaccines.

Wasn't it all linked back to a few specific batches, can't remember the specifics but the strain of virus used in production of these batches had an issue (once again cannot remember the details).

23-04-2021 2:43pm

FileNotFound wrote: »

Wasn't it all linked back to a few specific batches, can't remember the specifics but the strain of virus used in production of these batches had an issue (once again cannot remember the details).

No, there was a substance in the German batch which Ireland went for If memory serves and it increased the already slight risk ten-15 fold. If we bought the one the Canadians had for example, the risk would be back to miniscule. In any case, once more it came to cost, just like outsourcing the cervical smear tests to the USA.

this is the scary part...
When the swine flu vaccine was rushed into service before it had completed its research trials in 2009, the Government offered its manufacturer GSK a full indemnity.

Full read
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/state-seems-to-want-to-fight-all-the-narcolepsy-cases-whatever-the-cost-39436158.html

also
He said it was their case the situation in relation to the swine flu vaccine was “badly managed “ by Glaxosmithkline and the State agencies in Ireland.

The truth, counsel said was the Pandemrix vaccine was never tested on teenagers .

The focus of the hearing is to decide whether the defendants, or any of them, are liable, arising from Ms Bennett having narcolepsy. If liability is established, a separate hearing will be held later to assess damages.

full read
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-26-sues-state-claiming-she-developed-narcolepsy-from-pandemrix-swine-flu-vaccine-38573945.html

The number of people presenting with symptoms of narcolepsy from the swine flu vaccine Pandemrix has soared by more than 20pc in the wake of an Irish Independent exposé.

full read

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/surge-of-20pc-in-narcolepsy-cases-is-linked-to-swine-flu-jab-as-families-seek-damages-37825480.html
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/surge-of-20pc-in-narcolepsy-cases-is-linked-to-swine-flu-jab-as-families-seek-damages-37825480.html[/url

bfa1509 · 23-04-2021 4:42pm

rusty cole wrote: »

ah sure we can trust the medical device industry to give sound advise. Those vaccines were tested on healthy people who were maybe not on medication, or indeed overweight etc. What we see now is real world data, vaccines on people with underlying conditions, with diabetes, hypertension, huge BMI's and people that are on all manner of other medications that have to be and will be deemed safe for inoculation. Also the time between doses once shifted, will run contrary to original trials, whatever the new data is saying. I wouldn't be a bill gates put a chip in my arm brigade man, but I will wait for a good while to see more real world efficacy and adverse reactions, considering these are early days and we have clots albeit rare cases. how long did it take for the narcolepsy to develop post Pandermix?

Not going to disagree with you there. I was only referring to the vaccine's ability to prevent transmission, which appears to be very good.

With regard to the blood clots, they are extremely rare in younger, non-vaccinated populations. I wouldn't exactly call the vaccine-induced blood clots rare - there have been 28 cases from the Astra Zeneca vaccine in Ireland so far. Not half rare enough for me.

Eric Cartman · 28-04-2021 6:56pm

is_that_so wrote: »

A simpler approach would be to race through vaccinations to that promised 80%.

this is it. I hate the idea of a vaccine passport, its really creating a 2 tier society. Im a healthy person in their early 30s, I'm bottom of the list for vaccines basically and anything that the government thinks that they can do to stop me going to a restaurant or a pub on day 1 of re-opening is an absolute farce as far as I'm concerned.

FileNotFound · 28-04-2021 7:24pm

Have to say all the arguments saying it's creating a 2 tier society have merit. All the same I think (as someone who will be on the end of the vaccination list) that it's really a minor inconvenience given the economic value it could have. Opening up businesses, allowing at least some of us some return to normality.

Just think of the potential reduction on support payments. Less future tax lost to pay off a the debts.

is_that_so · 29-04-2021 9:10am

FileNotFound wrote: »

Have to say all the arguments saying it's creating a 2 tier society have merit. All the same I think (as someone who will be on the end of the vaccination list) that it's really a minor inconvenience given the economic value it could have. Opening up businesses, allowing at least some of us some return to normality.

Just think of the potential reduction on support payments. Less future tax lost to pay off a the debts.

Given that most people would not qualify for one until well beyond the summer that's a weak economic argument. Hospitality challenges aside we should be able to do almost everything else as we did late last year.

Richard Hillman · 29-04-2021 9:19am

Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.

Last summer the likes of Croatia barely had a first wave and still said **** it, we need the business and let anyone in. Spain were pretty open too.

is_that_so · 29-04-2021 9:25am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.

Last summer the likes of Croatia barely had a first wave and still said **** it, we need the business and let anyone in. Spain were pretty open too.

Spain are planning to let people in with a vaccine passport from June.

biko · 29-04-2021 10:18am

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Pubs, restaurants, retail outlets, tourism reliant countries will not be refusing your business without a vaccine passport.

I hope this comment wont age like milk.

But already it's on the cards and people are even ok with it.

Most Britons support the idea of vaccine passports, according to a new poll - with 62% saying they would be fine with using one to get into a pub or restaurant.

Ministers are studying their potential use, which could see access to venues granted only if customers have been vaccinated, received negative tests, or developed antibodies through past infection.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-most-britons-back-vaccine-passports-to-get-into-pub-or-restaurant-says-survey-12261755
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9404351/Is-vaccines-passport-pubs-restaurants-unworkable-British-ticket-Covid-hell.html

EU Digital/paper! Certs, the Megathread - threadbans in OP

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