New meat plant - Banagher in County Offaly

_Brian · 28-10-2020 11:04am

alps wrote: »

Not unless they get into bed with them.

I’m sure disposal of their offal will be tied to their participation in MII

have2flushtwice · 28-10-2020 12:41pm

There's a planning objection in from a local guy for the plant. It was on the Midlands radio 3 bulletin yesterday morning.

Bass Reeves · 28-10-2020 12:50pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

The plant closing in Clare had nothing to do with the Beef Plan. I know why it closed but I won't say on here.

Ya it was too good to be true at times. Some of it was down to the demise of bull beef without it they struggled for supply during the winter.

Bass Reeves · 28-10-2020 12:55pm

Danzy wrote: »

Ireland is closer to them than many global main markets that supply them now.

It's the scale of it, they could take our entire yearly kill and view it as a start, nothing significant.

Their demand rose Brazilian beef through the roof. Beef is now out of the price range of many middle class families in Brazil. China will take most of Brazil's beef in time.

The amount of beef exported global is quite small.

Brazilian beef is on the floor at present. China is quite picky about it good sources. I am not sure if Brazilian beef unless there really police there standards right will take massive amounts of it

Dickie10 · 28-10-2020 10:47pm

dont think chinese independent of any other factories would be any harm at all, let them in and start buying it will take a few out of the market and larry and the gang will just have to bid a bit higher if they want them. were as close prob closer than brazil and not even much further than NZ. whats the worst that will happen if the chinese come in?

alps · 28-10-2020 10:54pm

We're only 10 days by train from China....technically 12

patsy_mccabe · 28-10-2020 11:01pm

If you want to understand why China is so concerned about food security;

Water John · 28-10-2020 11:06pm

The Chinese take every part of a pig that's exported to them. Wouldn't be much offal left out of a bullock.

kk.man · 28-10-2020 11:11pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

dont think chinese independent of any other factories would be any harm at all, let them in and start buying it will take a few out of the market and larry and the gang will just have to bid a bit higher if they want them. were as close prob closer than brazil and not even much further than NZ. whats the worst that will happen if the chinese come in?

I don't know if it will have any effect on the trade tbh. They will have 2 choices either complete or comply. I know the one I'd choose if I owned a 40 m euro factory in the Midlands.

The big fear for the cartel is JSB or some big player of that statue. I'm surprised that they haven't made an attempt to open up here given we are the 4th largest beef exporters in the world.

Dickie10 · 28-10-2020 11:18pm

its absolutley crazy to think were the 4th biggest beef exporter in world are you sure aboout that? i know were the 4 th biggest sheep exporter after NZ, Aus and UK which is also crazy for our size you have to wonder why do no other countires export meat, what do they do with all thier land? has anyone ever noticed the likes of canada and USA in particular vasy tracts of what should be very good meat produicng land under scrub , wild forest ? why were they never developed? could it still be possible to "stake a claim" in parts of the USA today as it was 100 years ago or less

Water John · 28-10-2020 11:21pm

The vast majority of most foods is not exported. The world trade in a commodity thus can be a distortion, usually downwards of it's value. Remember at one point some years ago, Argentina blocked exports of beef as it was limiting the home supply. So a country like Argentina can eat all its own beef.

kk.man · 28-10-2020 11:58pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

its absolutley crazy to think were the 4th biggest beef exporter in world are you sure aboout that? i know were the 4 th biggest sheep exporter after NZ, Aus and UK which is also crazy for our size you have to wonder why do no other countires export meat, what do they do with all thier land? has anyone ever noticed the likes of canada and USA in particular vasy tracts of what should be very good meat produicng land under scrub , wild forest ? why were they never developed? could it still be possible to "stake a claim" in parts of the USA today as it was 100 years ago or less

https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/Start-a-Business-in-Ireland/Food-Investment-from-Outside-Ireland/Key-Sectors/Meat-and-Livestock/#:~:text=Ireland%20is%20the%20fifth%20largest,exporter%20of%20beef%20in%20Europe.

It's 5th now

Dinzee Conlee · 29-10-2020 12:05am

Dickie10 wrote: »

its absolutley crazy to think were the 4th biggest beef exporter in world are you sure aboout that? i know were the 4 th biggest sheep exporter after NZ, Aus and UK which is also crazy for our size you have to wonder why do no other countires export meat, what do they do with all thier land? has anyone ever noticed the likes of canada and USA in particular vasy tracts of what should be very good meat produicng land under scrub , wild forest ? why were they never developed? could it still be possible to "stake a claim" in parts of the USA today as it was 100 years ago or less

I think it’s more to do with Ireland being sparsely populated compared to other countries.
We can grow a low more food than we need - so we export more...

Lots of other countries are the opposite...

I wonder what the origins of this are? I imagine he famine and reduction in the population had a part to play, but not sure how much... be interesting to understand if and how much...

ganmo · 29-10-2020 2:30am

kk.man wrote: »

I don't know if it will have any effect on the trade tbh. They will have 2 choices either complete or comply. I know the one I'd choose if I owned a 40 m euro factory in the Midlands.

The big fear for the cartel is JSB or some big player of that statue. I'm surprised that they haven't made an attempt to open up here given we are the 4th largest beef exporters in the world.

they own moypark chicken so theyre already here

epfff · 29-10-2020 8:20am

_Brian wrote: »

I’m sure disposal of their offal will be tied to their participation in MII

Is that not the problem?
From my reading of the plans they will handle all their own offal plus have capacity to take in from other plants.

wrangler · 29-10-2020 8:38am

kk.man wrote: »

I don't know if it will have any effect on the trade tbh. They will have 2 choices either complete or comply. I know the one I'd choose if I owned a 40 m euro factory in the Midlands.

The big fear for the cartel is JSB or some big player of that statue. I'm surprised that they haven't made an attempt to open up here given we are the 4th largest beef exporters in the world.

There's for and against in everything, extra demand is good when a product is scarce. I remember being in Rungis meat market in France years ago and a buyer was telling us he was delighted with the Irish processors competing with each other to supply him, every price cheaper than the last. Prices were bad at the time though
He also encouraged us to produce R and U3s as he could develop a market for that standard, The supply of E s and Us wasn't dependable enough to contract to supply a market

patsy_mccabe · 29-10-2020 9:46am

They'll probably eat the offal. I've been to China. I was in a new factory built by a foreign company. The canteen was full of very young workers. Their dinner was fish heads and rice and they were glad of it. I was told for most, it would be their only meal for the day.

Bass Reeves · 29-10-2020 9:56am

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think it’s more to do with Ireland being sparsely populated compared to other countries.
We can grow a low more food than we need - so we export more...

Lots of other countries are the opposite...

I wonder what the origins of this are? I imagine he famine and reduction in the population had a part to play, but not sure how much... be interesting to understand if and how much...

While we have a low population versus country size in a European sense that is not the total story. We are one of the few countries that can finish cattle off grass alone. Most other countries used feedlots to finish cattle or grow crops such as turnips or oats to finish cattle outside.

We have a huge output versus land size. Even the UK our closest neighbour dose not have our grazing season. In alots of other countries like the USA, Brazil and Australia ranchers actually sell the cattle as either weanlings or stores. If sold to weanling usually it is what is called feeders I think that buy them. They take the calves to about 350-400 kgs before they are send to feedlots. Some feedlots do this task themselves. Feedlots then intensively feed to final slaughter weight.

The stocking rates can be very low but the area I volved huge. 10+ acres can be required to carry a cow on a grazing only system. I. The US they are limited by the severity of there winters and maybe drought in summer I places like Texas. In Australia it the summer drought that limits there ability to produce more

Mooooo · 29-10-2020 10:10am

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think it’s more to do with Ireland being sparsely populated compared to other countries.
We can grow a low more food than we need - so we export more...

Lots of other countries are the opposite...

I wonder what the origins of this are? I imagine he famine and reduction in the population had a part to play, but not sure how much... be interesting to understand if and how much...

The origins were likely to do with feeding the empire and how long we were an agricultural based economy compared to other western countries.

charolais0153 · 29-10-2020 11:01am

Dickie10 wrote: »

its absolutley crazy to think were the 4th biggest beef exporter in world are you sure aboout that? i know were the 4 th biggest sheep exporter after NZ, Aus and UK which is also crazy for our size you have to wonder why do no other countires export meat, what do they do with all thier land? has anyone ever noticed the likes of canada and USA in particular vasy tracts of what should be very good meat produicng land under scrub , wild forest ? why were they never developed? could it still be possible to "stake a claim" in parts of the USA today as it was 100 years ago or less

When you see the hardship here with 2 days of snow or 2 weeks of dry weather, how would you expect them to manage with 4 months of snow or dry weather

Bass Reeves · 29-10-2020 11:30am

Dickie10 wrote: »

its absolutley crazy to think were the 4th biggest beef exporter in world are you sure aboout that? i know were the 4 th biggest sheep exporter after NZ, Aus and UK which is also crazy for our size you have to wonder why do no other countires export meat, what do they do with all thier land? has anyone ever noticed the likes of canada and USA in particular vasy tracts of what should be very good meat produicng land under scrub , wild forest ? why were they never developed? could it still be possible to "stake a claim" in parts of the USA today as it was 100 years ago or less

Desertification is the problem. When trees and scrub gone in this sort of country it burns up and the top soil is blown away. In the 20+30,s in the US you had what were called dust bowls as huge dust storms made the country unlivable.

On staking a claim it no longer an option in the US and Canada. However it still possible in Brazil. You just need a box of matches.....and a gun to shoot the indegenous people

LuasSimon · 29-10-2020 3:07pm

Will this factory be much benefit to Banagher and surrounding area ?
Will all workers be on minimum wage and shipped in from the poorest parts of Latvia or Bulgaria like Larry Goodmans meat factories?..these people will then be housed twenty to a house and charged over the odds . By the time they send home a hundred euro to their familys theyll only have enough for a packet of frozen burgers in LIDL. Sad stuff to make the owners even richer.

alps · 29-10-2020 4:19pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Will this factory be much benefit to Banagher and surrounding area ?
Will all workers be on minimum wage and shipped in from the poorest parts of Latvia or Bulgaria like Larry Goodmans meat factories?..these people will then be housed twenty to a house and charged over the odds . By the time they send home a hundred euro to their familys theyll only have enough for a packet of frozen burgers in LIDL. Sad stuff to make the owners even richer.

If you expect to be paid more for your beef, there will be no other way to staff a meat factory.

Farmer owned factories have existed in the past, but failed as they could not employ or enforce such rigid work structures...in other words, they were soft.

These MII boys are slave drivers...quiet quiet brilliant businessesmen..

wrangler · 29-10-2020 5:09pm

alps wrote: »

If you expect to be paid more for your beef, there will be no other way to staff a meat factory.

Farmer owned factories have existed in the past, but failed as they could not employ or enforce such rigid work structures...in other words, they were soft.

These MII boys are slave drivers...quiet quiet brilliant businessesmen..

Even if a newcomer starts up and gives more to farmers, where are they going with the beef, they still have to compete with those there already going into supermarkets here and in the UK and compete with Poland etc

148multi · 29-10-2020 9:22pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think it’s more to do with Ireland being sparsely populated compared to other countries.
We can grow a low more food than we need - so we export more...

Lots of other countries are the opposite...

I wonder what the origins of this are? I imagine he famine and reduction in the population had a part to play, but not sure how much... be interesting to understand if and how much...

Well to put it into perspective, in pre famine years we had a population half the size of England, if we had kept our population size and growth, today we wouldn't be exporting much of anything except people.

Water John · 29-10-2020 9:30pm

We were the largest exporter of butter long before the famine also significant grain exports.

Say my name · 29-10-2020 9:53pm

Water John wrote: »

We were the largest exporter of butter long before the famine also significant grain exports.

We kept Suffolk and Norfolk supplied with weanling cattle too.
So much so that laws were brought in by wigs from the north and sw of England to stop the imports of Irish cattle.
The Importation Act 1667.

Danzy · 30-10-2020 8:39am

148multi wrote: »

Well to put it into perspective, in pre famine years we had a population half the size of England, if we had kept our population size and growth, today we wouldn't be exporting much of anything except people.

We also fed our own and much of England's population.

Even in the famine years Ireland was producing enough to feed 20 million.

richie123 · 30-10-2020 8:55am

Danzy wrote: »

We also fed our own and much of England's population.

Even in the famine years Ireland was producing enough to feed 20 million.

You know it's horrific to think about it ...what it must of being like during the famine.
Is it taught in English schools ?
There completely oblivious to there past.

148multi · 31-10-2020 10:56pm

richie123 wrote: »

You know it's horrific to think about it ...what it must of being like during the famine.
Is it taught in English schools ?
There completely oblivious to there past.

Most people are oblivious to the effects of the famine, you may be surprised to hear some families are still suffering as a result of it.

148multi · 31-10-2020 10:57pm

richie123 wrote: »

You know it's horrific to think about it ...what it must of being like during the famine.
Is it taught in English schools ?
There completely oblivious to there past.

Most people are oblivious to the effects of the famine, you may be surprised to hear some families are still suffering as a result of it.

Dickie10 · 31-10-2020 11:11pm

how do u mean? the famine was also a huge economic leg up for the strong tenant farmers of ireland , enjoyed a bumper spell from 1860-1920

148multi · 31-10-2020 11:26pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

how do u mean? the famine was also a huge economic leg up for the strong tenant farmers of ireland , enjoyed a bumper spell from 1860-1920

There was a spike in schizophrenia in the west of ireland, the effect of famine on pregnant mothers at a particular time caused the child to suffer from schizophrenia. It follows in the genes then and a child that is genetically predisposed to the disease, who also is raised by a parent suffering from the disease is 9 times more likely to suffer from it. North roscommon shares the highest rate of schizophrenia in Europe with a provence in sweden.

alps · 31-10-2020 11:46pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

how do u mean? the famine was also a huge economic leg up for the strong tenant farmers of ireland , enjoyed a bumper spell from 1860-1920

Grandmother born 1890ish always maintained farmers were flying it economically up to independence. . The economic war would have hit and then WW2 so maybe not a fair comparison.

patsy_mccabe · 01-11-2020 12:12am

148multi wrote: »

There was a spike in schizophrenia in the west of ireland, the effect of famine on pregnant mothers at a particular time caused the child to suffer from schizophrenia. It follows in the genes then and a child that is genetically predisposed to the disease, who also is raised by a parent suffering from the disease is 9 times more likely to suffer from it. North roscommon shares the highest rate of schizophrenia in Europe with a provence in sweden.

I often think about the famine and the effects it had on people. We have an old famine soup kitchen on our farm (actually just outside the ditch, but it was once part of the farm). Across the road, where my Grandfather was born has a Cillín, where unbaptised children were buried during the famine.
When doing my family tree I found prison records where both sides of my family had people arrested for drunk and disorderly conduct, in the years after the famine.

Danzy · 01-11-2020 9:59am

alps wrote: »

Grandmother born 1890ish always maintained farmers were flying it economically up to independence. . The economic war would have hit and then WW2 so maybe not a fair comparison.

1880s to 1913 was as bad a period for agriculture in Europe as we know of in the last 3 centuries and probably longer.

It ties in with the period of the long depression from the 1870s to late 1890s.

The years prior to WW1 saw agri prices collapse in Europe.

Bass Reeves · 01-11-2020 10:07am

148multi wrote: »

Most people are oblivious to the effects of the famine, you may be surprised to hear some families are still suffering as a result of it.

148multi wrote: »

There was a spike in schizophrenia in the west of ireland, the effect of famine on pregnant mothers at a particular time caused the child to suffer from schizophrenia. It follows in the genes then and a child that is genetically predisposed to the disease, who also is raised by a parent suffering from the disease is 9 times more likely to suffer from it. North roscommon shares the highest rate of schizophrenia in Europe with a provence in sweden.

We suffer at a higher rate from some other genetic defects and again we have the highest rates of these in Europe. Most of this is attributed to a limited enclosed island based population base. This leads to a lower genetic breeding pool

Looking to blame events from 175 years ago as having an effect that is carried through to today is unrealistic. While the famine is a mind numbing piece of our history and a stain on British rule in Ireland it is not the whole story.

The population of Ireland at the time was begining to be unsustainable. It was unlikely that the population explosion aided by the potato was sustainable for much longer. At some stage in the next 15-20years unless we has an upsurge in industrialization that sucked the population into large towns and cities we have suffered a catastrophic event.

The only other possibility would have been a forced clearance(it happened in a few area any the Kenmare clearances are a case in point) like in Scotland.

Say my name · 01-11-2020 11:32am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We suffer at a higher rate from some other genetic defects and again we have the highest rates of these in Europe. Most of this is attributed to a limited enclosed island based population base. This leads to a lower genetic breeding pool

Looking to blame events from 175 years ago as having an effect that is carried through to today is unrealistic. While the famine is a mind numbing piece of our history and a stain on British rule in Ireland it is not the whole story.

The population of Ireland at the time was begining to be unsustainable. It was unlikely that the population explosion aided by the potato was sustainable for much longer. At some stage in the next 15-20years unless we has an upsurge in industrialization that sucked the population into large towns and cities we have suffered a catastrophic event.

The only other possibility would have been a forced clearance(it happened in a few area any the Kenmare clearances are a case in point) like in Scotland.

There are numerous studies to suggest that schizophrenia starts from a famine and carries on in genetics after.

On the population in Ireland pre famine.
Remember nearly everyone of those paid rent to a landlord and then you had tenants subdividing land to even more tenants in return for labour and possibly a bit made on the rent that they were paying the landlord.
So not only did they raise a household but had to pay for the land every year through extra produce and they couldn't improve their dwelling or land as the rent would increase.

If the rents were abolished they would have had a heck of a fighting chance.
And this was a time when the average Irish person was taller and stronger and better fed than the equivalent English person. They did know how to live and farm but they were perceived as income and food producers for Britain. The same happened in India. Major famine yet the east India company bragged to it's shareholders that rent and income increased at that time.

It was the attraction, ease and profit of sheep farming and that only a few people were required on estates to look after these that drove the Scottish clearances.
Same happened on Easter island, again Scottish influence.

148multi · 01-11-2020 11:50am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

We suffer at a higher rate from some other genetic defects and again we have the highest rates of these in Europe. Most of this is attributed to a limited enclosed island based population base. This leads to a lower genetic breeding pool

Looking to blame events from 175 years ago as having an effect that is carried through to today is unrealistic. While the famine is a mind numbing piece of our history and a stain on British rule in Ireland it is not the whole story.

The population of Ireland at the time was begining to be unsustainable. It was unlikely that the population explosion aided by the potato was sustainable for much longer. At some stage in the next 15-20years unless we has an upsurge in industrialization that sucked the population into large towns and cities we have suffered a catastrophic event.

The only other possibility would have been a forced clearance(it happened in a few area any the Kenmare clearances are a case in point) like in Scotland.

The research shows that young women married to older men had a higher rate of the disease in their children, then nutritional deficiencies during a certain time during the pregnancy raised the rate again. Studies have shown that children reared where one parent is suffering from the disease, that child is 3 times more likely to suffer from it too, even if the child is adopted. Studies have shown how this still affects people today. Look up studies on the health effects of the Dutch hunger winter.
The population growth was aided by the potatoe, before the potatoe was introduced we had a varied diet and crops, the potatoe allowed families to live off smaller plots of land with much less work. That model was definitely unsustainable.

New meat plant - Banagher in County Offaly

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