What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Cordell · 25-10-2020 10:38am

irishblessing wrote: »

Maybe if more people passed the peace pipe we'd all get along better.

The pipe is usually extended but some cultures, particularly one, will either refuse it or first seek to validate if the pipe is permitted by their religion, and this is why it won't work.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 10:38am

newhouse87 wrote: »

its ok i answered for you beacuse you had hit a deadend and had no way out.

Do explain how you came to that conclusion.

CtevenSrowder · 25-10-2020 10:42am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Japan is not cosmopolitan for a main reason a difficult language to learn, same with Chinese. Plus there are not lot of countries who speak Japanese.
Like English, French, German for example.

Cameroon and countries similar will get cosmopolitan once the standard of living improves compared to Western Countries.
Might take 200 or 300 years who knows. But eventually poorer parts of the world will close the gap. As they become more urbanised and technically advanced.

I have no problem with 100,000 French, Spanish, German, Dutch, English, Scottish, Polish, Latvian, Swedish etc living in this country. As that is what the Irish people voted for in EU referendums.

Makes me wonder what you are afraid of?

Is Japan not being cosmopolitan a negative thing in your view?

If so, why? And if not, why do you want Ireland to be seen as cosmopolitan?

Wibbs · 25-10-2020 10:45am

irishblessing wrote: »

Well that's true, and yes you did reduce it.

Are you agreeing with me that the White Male is the top of the oppressor tree by the happenstance of their colour and gender?

Disagreeing is not the same as avoiding or denying. Sorry.

"You're wrong" is disagreement. "You're wrong and it's because you're scared/the oppressor" is avoidance. "You're wrong and here's why" is debate.

What is validating this truth for you? Have you studied societies all around the world and been able to conclude that this is actually true? Can you please explain how you have reached this conclusion?

Point out just one modern western country that bucks this trend? If I'm wrong then it should be easy.

I actually have a close friend I met at work during my years in Uni and she is half Saudi. Her father and that side of the family are Saudi. From personal friendship with her, I am under the impression that most women in Saudi Arabia do not feel like they are living their best, safest, happiest life.

I am quite sure many do indeed feel they're not. Hell I'm quite sure many women in western societies feel similarly. It's rare a day goes by where someone in the media backs that up. On the other side of that, which gender is most likely to convert to Islam?

Go back again even further, too though. Think why North America is populated at all and the Siberian land bridge that once existed, and the most likely explanation of following animal herds.

Indeed and they were going into virgin territory. It was uninhabited by humans until they showed up. However go back to that time and before, when modern humans left Africa they went into lands that were inhabited by previous peoples. And where are they now? Extinct.

But also as you mention, the post colonial effects are real and should not be dismissed just because you (the proverbial you, anyone) are uncomfortable with that reality and the feelings that may come from that.

And those post colonial effects seem to play out quite differently depending on the ex colonies involved. Ex East Asian colonies have done significantly better than African. Take something as oddball as Palm oil. That's a product native to Africa and was one of the principle exports along with cocoa in the 19th century colonial times. It got to colonised Asia in the late 19th early 20th centuries and who is the biggest producer of the stuff today?

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 10:46am

Deleted User wrote: »

So.. you're now making a case for white privilege then? Are you sure you're on the right thread? the BLM thread is ----> that way.

So is this the part of the reasoned discussion in which you crave where I then say the far-right thread is over there? <

As for self-awareness, remember what I said about equality? You should consider applying the standards you're throwing at others to yourself.

Point not clear, do explain.

As I said in the original piece, education in non-western countries tends to be below the standard of European education for all manner of reasons. You don't need to show that your education is better... because most people will assume it is.

I honestly can't see a point here tying in to the discussion.

Ahh I understand now. This is about virtue signalling. Nah. I have no interest in engaging in such behavior.

This conclusion obviously makes you feel more comfortable so that you can dismiss views that don't agree with your own. Of course you have no interest.

I listed four/five main areas, with paragraphs explaining the reasoning behind those areas... and you found yourself incapable of reading it.

I rest my case. I also asked if could save some time and be more succinct in your responses.

"I'd say that culture (theirs and the host nation), lack of education/skills, language acquisition and the desire to come together as ethnic group (community focus). And seriously poor planning on the behalf of the migrants themselves."

First line of that post... haha.. you didn't even "attempt" to read it, and just posted up an immediate deflection. Good lord.

And why is there a lack of education/skills? And how should migrants plan better with their lack of education, skills, and resources?

You've shown that you're unwilling to argue in good faith.

Yet here I am...

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 10:49am

Ah lads, I can't keep this up all morning. I'm going to draw a line under it here for now, always a pleasure. Wibbs, I will say it's your posts I find most worthwhile and interesting to debate (not sarcasm). Will probably check in later, but now family duty calls.

Pity as I think we were about to touch on evolution vs extinction which is always fun. Bye for now.

newhouse87 · 25-10-2020 10:51am

irishblessing wrote: »

Ah lads, I can't keep this up all morning. I'm going to draw a line under it here for now, always a pleasure. Wibbs, I will say it's your posts I find most worthwhile and interesting to debate (not sarcasm). Will probably check in later, but now family duty calls.

for any white supremacists reading at least they know they can to nigeria and spout all the hate they want and not be racist, great logic.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 10:54am

newhouse87 wrote: »

for any white supremacists reading at least they know they can to nigeria and spout all the hate they want and not be racist, great logic.

Really quick: They should know they are prejudiced, biased, hateful, and a disgrace. Those white supremacists in America for example though, in light of their history and systems of power, are racists in addition.

Enjoy your day gents.

newhouse87 · 25-10-2020 10:57am

irishblessing wrote: »

Really quick: They should know they are prejudiced, biased, hateful, and a disgrace. Those white supremacists in America for example though, in light of their history and systems of power, are racists in addition.

Enjoy your day gents.

we are geting somewhere at least now you can see racism goes both ways just depends where in the globe a person is whether it is racism or reverse racism, have a good day too.

25-10-2020 11:03am

irishblessing wrote: »

So is this the part of the reasoned discussion in which you crave where I then say the far-right thread is over there? <

You're the one who introduced the claim of my being a member of the far right. Just as you're the one who introduced your version of what racism entails, and also introduced the aspect of white privilege.

What you haven't done is counter anything that has been said about multiculturalism. Why would that be? (You also haven't proven, even slightly, that I'm of the far right.)

Point not clear, do explain.

You're applying double standards. Standards that apply to others but don't apply to yourself (or Black people). You've done so a number of times within the last two pages.

I honestly can't see a point here tying in to the discussion.

Exactly. You're the one who made the point, but it has no relevance to the discussion.

snipped

I see little value in continuing with this... since all you're doing to dragging the discussion away from multiculturalism or immigration, and interjecting vague nonsense from the social sciences.

Mad_maxx · 25-10-2020 11:07am

Mules wrote: »

This is an Irish forum, you sound ridiculous talking about white males, like someone in an American university sociology department.

or an irish university sociology department :mad:

Mad_maxx · 25-10-2020 11:12am

irishblessing wrote: »

Was that you in the far right protests here? I am getting that vibe.

your,e embarrassing yourself now

Mad_maxx · 25-10-2020 11:23am

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Is Japan not being cosmopolitan a negative thing in your view?

If so, why? And if not, why do you want Ireland to be seen as cosmopolitan?

cosmopolitanism is an article of faith for liberal progressives , its no different to christians believing in the" ressurection "

these are religious beliefs in 2020 so you dont think , let alone question

Hamachi · 25-10-2020 11:47am

irishblessing wrote: »

Will probably check in later, but now family duty calls.

Given your obvious disdain for ‘white males’, I sincerely hope you do not have a son(s).

If yes, the hope is that you at least have the intelligence to keep your ideological leanings distinct from your parenting.

ThunbergsAreGo · 25-10-2020 12:13pm

irishblessing wrote: »

At the end of the day you want an all white Ireland because anything else scares you.

Why does multi cultural mean non white to you (and many of our fantastic NGOs, and marketeers) ?

Mules · 25-10-2020 12:43pm

Also, not agreeing with multiculturalism isn't the same this as being anti immigrant. I'm happy with immigration by people who pay enough taxes to more than cover the costs of what they use in public services. I'm not bothered about where these people come from.

It makes no sense to me to allow immigration by people who don't add to the country's finances.
The argument is that without foreign workers who will work for low pay and bad conditions some businesses will have to raise wages. So what, they don't have a god given right to cheap workers.

Sand · 25-10-2020 12:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno about that. How are the wealthier managing to flee from it?

Non-EU migrants and those with poor English are highly concentrated in urban areas, primarily those with a high degree of rented accommodation, deprivation and below average educational attainment. I.E poorer areas. Sure, some wealthy neighborhoods might have a medical consultant from Pakistan but its not the same as what is facing Irish people in poorer neighborhoods.

The same pattern is well embedded in the US and the UK where wealthier white people dutifully salute diversity, whilst fleeing out to the suburbs or even out to the country to escape it. Meanwhile its the daughters of the working class English who have been sacrificed to the migrant grooming gangs. The UK property series 'Escape to the country' is aptly titled. The ultimate problem for white/indigenous people fleeing diversity in the cities is that they are being chased.

I suppose the better question is why should Ireland be considered unique and different from the experience of every other nation that has had these policies inflicted on them?

There are very few examples of self-sufficient communities where the populace can choose who gets to live, or "exist" there.

I think unless we have a breakthrough where it's acknowledged the real issue is diversity and that tackled, we'll see a number of tactics and strategies adopted from the US such as reform of planning laws to prevent or discourage social hosing, rented accommodation, etc. Again, the problem there is that those measures will ultimately fail.

I'm not sure about that.

I'm very sure about that. I don't know how it is in your place of employment, but in any medium to large business in Ireland, employees will be bombarded with pro-diversity, pro-mass migration, pro-neo liberalism messaging from their HR departments. What ever your actual beliefs, you know the answer you are supposed to give.

Few will want to sacrifice themselves on the altar of multiculturalism, and racism.

Exactly, but the wealthy have more to lose: their job, their home, access to private services and indeed their circle of friends who will be equally terrified that by associating with them that they would be targeted.

Poorer people have less to lose. There is the beginnings of policies in the UK that would deny social services such as medical care to dissidents, but for now at least they cant be particularly harmed relative to what they currently have.

CtevenSrowder · 25-10-2020 1:15pm

irishblessing wrote: »

Racism and bias would be very difficult to overcome. Many (most) are probably living with untreated trauma, as well. A lack of generational wealth. Are your examples in any particular order of importance, out of curiosity? There is no such thing as reverse racism from a black person in a white dominant society. Racism is about who holds the positions of power and control. I think you mean prejudice or bias or perhaps discrimination.

Good grief, it's amazing the complete crap people can believe.

If a gang of black people beat up a white person in Ireland, and did so because that person was white, is this, in your view, not a racist act?

Wibbs · 25-10-2020 1:30pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Why does multi cultural mean non white to you (and many of our fantastic NGOs, and marketeers) ?

Indeed. "Multiculturalism" is only "diverse" if it's made up of non White faces coming in. Even Asian faces don't count nearly so much for point scoring. We can see that in the various NGO, governmental and political marketing bumpf around this topic. Of the well over one hundred thousand pale of skin non Irish migrants from all sorts of places living in this country we see vanishingly few, if any represented. East Asian faces are right down in the pantheon of diversity too and it's hardly the case that the Yellow man has avoided White racism, or colonialism.

That and this Multiculturalism and "diversity" only ever goes one way. It's only White, European nominally "christian" nations that appear to be in such dire need of this cosmopolitanism to improve as societies. Asian nations aren't and African nations most certainly aren't.

CtevenSrowder · 25-10-2020 1:35pm

newhouse87 wrote: »

we are geting somewhere at least now you can see racism goes both ways just depends where in the globe a person is whether it is racism or reverse racism, have a good day too.

Imagine being of the belief that it isn't racist for a white European and his mates to head of to Africa and beat up a few black people because they are black and vice versa. Ultra progressivism is just the gift that keeps on giving!

TomTomTim · 25-10-2020 1:41pm

Mules wrote: »

Also, not agreeing with multiculturalism isn't the same this as being anti immigrant. I'm happy with immigration by people who pay enough taxes to more than cover the costs of what they use in public services. I'm not bothered about where these people come from.

It makes no sense to me to allow immigration by people who don't add to the country's finances.
The argument is that without foreign workers who will work for low pay and bad conditions some businesses will have to raise wages. So what, they don't have a god given right to cheap workers.

Of course, but black and white framing is all you'll ever get from people like irishblessing. Their whole ideology relies on it. If they even acknowledge the fact that there's a grey area, they may have to admit that us " far right racists" aren't the monsters that they claim we are.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 1:43pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Good grief, it's amazing the complete crap people can believe.

If a gang of black people beat up a white person in Ireland, and did so because that person was white, is this, in your view, not a racist act?

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Imagine being of the belief that it isn't racist for a white European and his mates to head of to Africa and beat up a few black people because they are black and vice versa. Ultra progressivism is just the gift that keeps on giving!

It is amazing indeed. People are so familiar with the term racist, that they use it synonymously with the words prejudice or racial prejudice, bias, stereotyping, bigotry, etc. However, they're not the same.

White people can indeed face stereotypical assumptions based on their skin colour and hence encounter racial prejudice. But this cannot be called racism in western societies, because of the inherent systemic imbalance of power between those with lighter skin colour and people of colour.

Racial prejudice can affect people on an individual level, but it would not have the same effect on a larger social and cultural level because it is only when stereotypes are bolstered by power, such as through a eurocentric model of thinking, that it creates systemic and structural racism and oppression that people of colour have encountered throughout history.

Some of you need to spend some time educating yourselves in this matter and it shows.

TomTomTim · 25-10-2020 1:49pm

irishblessing wrote: »

It is amazing indeed. People are so familiar with the term racist, that they use it synonymously with the words prejudice or racial prejudice, bias, stereotyping, bigotry, etc. However, it's not.

White people can indeed face stereotypical assumptions based on their skin colour and hence encounter racial prejudice. But this cannot be called racism in western societies, because of the inherent systemic imbalance of power between those with lighter skin colour and people of colour.

Racial prejudice can affect people on an individual level, but it would not have the same effect on a larger social and cultural level because it is only when stereotypes are bolstered by power, such as through a eurocentric model of thinking, that it creates systemic and structural racism and oppression that people of colour have encountered throughout history.

Some of you need to spend some time educating yourselves in this matter and it shows.

Your opinions are nonsense, but I'll humor you. When do we get to a stage then when minorities can be racist? If Ireland becomes majority non native, and many of them are in power, can they then be racist? If you're consistent the answer will be yes, and you may even reply as such in the now, but I'd guess that when it actually happens that won't be your opinion. The only relevant example I can think of in the now is South Africa. Are South African blacks who hate the white minority racist?

Wibbs · 25-10-2020 1:58pm

TomTomTim wrote: »

If Ireland becomes majority non native,

That's incredibly unlikely ever to happen, though you do hear this often enough. Outside of colonies like the US, Canada and others in the new world I can't think of one White multicultural nation where the natives are a minority. *edit* it may happen with urban centres like we see the trend with London, as diversity is almost entirely urban in nature.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 2:00pm

TomTomTim wrote: »

Your opinions are nonsense, but I'll humor you. When do we get to a stage then when minorities can be racist? If Ireland becomes majority non native, and many of them are in power, can they then be racist? If you're consistent the answer will be yes, and you may even reply as such in the now, but I'd guess that when it actually happens that won't be your opinion. The only relevant example I can think of in the now is South Africa. Are South African blacks who hate the white minority racist?

Omg. So humour me by reading and considering what I've actually said. You do actually need to engage with me properly if you're going to "humour me." But I doubt that's what you really mean. You don't want to really hear it out, read the article I posted, or do any research yourself first to properly consider it. you just want to attack and stay firm in your own biases. Waste of my time.

Minorities cannot be racist. You clearly haven't spent 5 seconds to inform yourself of the definition of racism.

And here is the crux of the fear of many of you on this thread: what if minorities become a majority into power and then we white people are treated like them! Lol!!

Rodney Bathgate · 25-10-2020 2:01pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Good grief, it's amazing the complete crap people can believe.

If a gang of black people beat up a white person in Ireland, and did so because that person was white, is this, in your view, not a racist act?

Of course not. It has been drilled into this person that white people cannot be the victims of racism.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 2:04pm

Hamachi wrote: »

Given your obvious disdain for ‘white males’, I sincerely hope you do not have a son(s).

If yes, the hope is that you at least have the intelligence to keep your ideological leanings distinct from your parenting.

I bet your head would explode if I told you I have a son who supports feminism!

Rodney Bathgate · 25-10-2020 2:04pm

irishblessing wrote: »

I bet your head would explode if I told you I have a son who supports feminism!

Now that is creepy.

irishblessing · 25-10-2020 2:06pm

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Of course not. It has been drilled into this person that white people cannot be the victims of racism.

From this statement, it is also clear you need to spend some time learning about the definition and meaning of the word racism.

White people, generally speaking, can be victims of racial prejudice, bias, bigotry, racial stereotyping, assault, harassment, etc. I hope that clears it up for you. I know change is hard people, but it shouldn't be this difficult to simply look into a word definition. :rolleyes:

TomTomTim · 25-10-2020 2:06pm

irishblessing wrote: »

Omg. So humour me by reading and considering what I've actually said. You do actually need to engage with me properly if you're going to "humour me." But I doubt that's what you really mean. You don't want to really hear it out, read the article I posted, or do any research yourself first to properly consider it. you just want to attack and stay firm in your own biases. Waste of my time.

Minorities cannot be racist. You clearly haven't spent 5 seconds to inform yourself of the definition of racism.

And here is the crux of the fear of many of you on this thread: what if minorities become a majority into power and then we white people are treated like them! Lol!!

The irony. You've just ignored my points about what happens when they become a majority. You're not even worth humoring to be fair.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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