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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #1172
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The is talk of the government/HSE suing the unions its possibly a tactic by the government, but it is interesting because this is not playing ou the way there thing usually do, which is a bit of dance between the government and unions of you stepped out and I stepped in again until it's all resolved.

    It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.

    There was a Fine Gael representative on Prime Time last night and he would not take the bait when David McCullough was asking would they seek to penalise the unions for breaking the terms of the signed up to pay deal (as is allowed for in the deal). He said such talk would be incendiary in the current climate.

    I wouldn't be surprised consequently if any suggestions of someone being sued are originating outside of the government.


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    #1173
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    jay0109 wrote: »
    This was always going to happen once Nurses were put on a 4yr degree programme.
    As sure as night follows day

    Not all Degrees are the same or add the same value to the workforce. Humanities graduates may not earn the same as someone with an Engineering degree...just the world we live in. Different roles different pay scales


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    #1174
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,375 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    road_high wrote: »
    Not all Degrees are the same or add the same value to the workforce. Humanities graduates may not earn the same as someone with an Engineering degree...just the world we live in. Different roles different pay scales

    A degree in Nursing science is what exactly.


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    #1175
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    road_high wrote: »
    Hear Stephen Donnelly on Newstalk- since when did a Nursing qualification become comparable to Physiotherapy?
    This is insanity. This is like comparing an Accounts assistant with the Senior Financial Controller and saying they should be paid the same. No way a Nursing qualification is the same thing


    Physio is going to be more academically taxing in college but in practice nurses have more responsibility, manage more critically ill patients, do more minor procedures and work more unsociable hours.

    You probably won't find a physio in hospital after six o'clock and they wouldn't be great in an arrest or with a critically ill patient.


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    #1176
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    road_high wrote: »
    Hear Stephen Donnelly on Newstalk- since when did a Nursing qualification become comparable to Physiotherapy?
    This is insanity. This is like comparing an Accounts assistant with the Senior Financial Controller and saying they should be paid the same. No way a Nursing qualification is the same thing



    Why would you think nurses are not comparable to physios ? Physiotherapist do fantastic work and are well educated and trained . A nurse would not be trained or able to do physio

    Nurses are also well educated and trained and do work that physios are not trained to do . Nurses give IV,s .Give drugs , care for ventilated patients . Care for high dependent new born and prem babies with multiple needs and drips and lines .
    I see the two jobs as comparable actually and one complimenting the other . I find it odd you would compare a nurse to an accounts assistant and a physio to the financial controller ? Maybe you have never experienced a paediatric intensive care and the amount of knowledge and skill a nurse needs to keep those patients alive .


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    #1177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Why would you think nurses are not comparable to physios ? Physiotherapist do fantastic work and are well educated and trained . A nurse would not be trained or able to do physio

    Nurses are also well educated and trained and do work that physios are not trained to do . Nurses give IV,s .Give drugs , care for ventilated patients . Care for high dependent new born and prem babies with multiple needs and drips and lines .
    I see the two jobs as comparable actually and one complimenting the other . I find it odd you would compare a nurse to an accounts assistant and a physio to the financial controller ? Maybe you have never experienced a paediatric intensive care and the amount of knowledge and skill a nurse needs to keep those patients alive .

    If you join the civil service with an honors degree, you don’t start at the same pay rate as a department head. You’ve got to earn that through experience. Same goes for nurses, teachers, etc.


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    #1178
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Physio is going to be more academically taxing in college but in practice nurses have more responsibility, manage more critically ill patients, do more minor procedures and work more unsociable hours.

    You probably won't find a physio in hospital after six o'clock and they wouldn't be great in an arrest or with a critically ill patient.

    Yes but a physio has more responsibility in diagnosis and selecting treatment routes.

    Nurses are there 24/7 but that which they are most valued for (compassion/empathy/support) etc, is not necessarily something which they are taught in college.


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    #1179
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    €30,000 starting rising to €45,000 over 8-10 years. I'm sorry but that's about right for someone making close to 0 clinical decisions.

    But Nurses are the gold standard for whatever reason. It's political suicide to stand against them. Whatever they demand they'll have the support of the public.


    I'd imagine nurses make more clinical decisions that most hospital staff. What category to triage a patient, when to call for a doctor, when EWS review is justified and when not. They perform procedures, work at arrests, manage airways.

    The vast majority of clinical decision making in hospitals is ultimately made by doctors and it's oftentimes an intern or SHO.

    Jobs aren't paid for decision. There's a huge amount of academic snobbery directed towards nurses.


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    #1180
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Yes but a physio has more responsibility in diagnosis and selecting treatment routes.

    Nurses are there 24/7 but that which they are most valued for (compassion/empathy/support) etc, is not necessarily something which they are taught in college.

    There’s simply no comparison. Nursing is more of a generic qualification with some specialism. They don’t diagnose or indeed select treatments- if they did we wouldn’t need doctors.


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    #1181
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If you join the civil service with an honors degree, you don’t start at the same pay rate as a department head. You’ve got to earn that through experience. Same goes for nurses, teachers, etc.

    Physiotherapist are not department heads so I don't see the argument ?


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    #1182
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    1.Your last post was implying that the increase for TD's was equivalent to that of public sector workers- when its just not as TD's get a multitude of side payments- along with extremely long holidays and large pensions.

    2.I presume you are moving off that point so and attempting to go on to a new one?

    3. And when discussing the pay agreement that was negotiated- it clearly hasnt worked as the turnover of nursing staff is extremely high as they are leaving the system and emigrating.

    So the options are- carry on with a pay agreement that isnt working or look to change it- the latter is the better solution, surely


    1 No, my last post was simply indicating that TDs did not just give "give themselves a handsome pay rise" as stated by another poster. Actually I think this linkage with TDs pay is just distraction and obfuscation. It might be just as relevant (or irrelevant) to compare nurses pay to that of the executives of the IMNO - do they get payments for expenses and travel as well, do you know?


    2 I wasn't attempting to move on to another point - just pointing out that the pay agreement does contain some special measures for the lower paid - in reply to your point about straight percentages.


    3 As regards attracting staff, what was the level of nursing staff in the health service last year compared to 5 years earlier ? I do note that the Public Service Pay Commission found no general problem of recruitment and retention for nurses.


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    #1183
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Yes but a physio has more responsibility in diagnosis and selecting treatment routes.

    Nurses are there 24/7 but that which they are most valued for (compassion/empathy/support) etc, is not necessarily something which they are taught in college.


    The ignorance of this. Nurses should be valued far more for their clinical skills not being empathetic.

    You seem to know nothing about nurses jobs or how hospitals work.


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    #1184
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    The ignorance of this. Nurses should be valued far more for their clinical skills not being empathetic.

    You seem to know nothing about nurses jobs or how hospitals work.

    Please enlighten me.

    And something demonstrably evident of the profession, not "my GF or wife or brother etc knew a nurse who the Dr asked what should be done once".

    I certainly will give nurse credit for their clinical skills (in so much as they have to use them) but the point still holds that nurses are not responsible for clinical decision making in the same way as physio's are.


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    #1185
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Yes but a physio has more responsibility in diagnosis and selecting treatment routes.

    Nurses are there 24/7 but that which they are most valued for (compassion/empathy/support) etc, is not necessarily something which they are taught in college.

    Well if you ever need ICU and a highly skilled and educated nurse to keep you alive she /he will need way way way more than empathy


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    #1186
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    road_high wrote: »
    There’s simply no comparison. Nursing is more of a generic qualification with some specialism. They don’t diagnose or indeed select treatments- if they did we wouldn’t need doctors.

    They're trained to make life or death decisions. They deal with life and death every day of the week. Perhaps it's different in Ireland but UK nurses have to question every doctor decision, if it's incorrect they lose their pin.


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    #1187
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Well if you ever need ICU and a highly skilled and educated nurse to keep you alive she /he will need way way way more than empathy

    Reading this kind of makes me cringe.
    A lollipop person keeps school children alive, or a life guard at a swimming pool, what should we pay them?

    Yes, ICU is keeping me alive, and the nurse is monitoring equipment, but are they diagnosing? Are they selecting treatments? Are they doing the surgery? Are they prescribing critical medications?

    They are an essential role but they do not have ownership on treatment decisions or diagnosis.

    I'll repeat a point I made earlier just to clarify, I think nurses on the ward should be on more than they currently are after 5 years of service. But, the average money is 57k/year and this strike is to try to get 12% pay rises for all nurses. If that average is unrepresentative then it indicates a badly skewed structure where we have more nurses in management roles than we should have but the money is still in the pot for nurses and if they get this rise, it will be awarded to all nurses and thus the average will rise to nearly 64k. They have permanent positions, short weeks (but yes long days) and better pension benefits than those in the private sector for what they have to contribute.

    We cannot afford this, it is ignoring the problems elsewhere in the system, it devalues an agreed pay deal, it will trigger additional claims elsewhere.


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    #1188
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Please enlighten me.

    And something demonstrably evident of the profession, not "my GF or wife or brother etc knew a nurse who the Dr asked what should be done once".

    I certainly will give nurse credit for their clinical skills (in so much as they have to use them) but the point still holds that nurses are not responsible for clinical decision making in the same way as physio's are.


    I'm a doctor. Every time I'm working I am reliant on the judgement nurses at triage and in the rest of the ED.
    Nurses have absolutely suggested diagnoses to me that have been correct.
    It's very frustrating for me when people act like nurses only have soft skills so I can only imagine how annoyed nurses get.


    What degree of clinical decision making do you think physios make? In my experience a nurse has far more responsibility and capacity to do harm to a patient than a physiotherapist.


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    #1189
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Reading this kind of makes me cringe.
    A lollipop person keeps school children alive, or a life guard at a swimming pool, what should we pay them?

    Yes, ICU is keeping me alive, and the nurse is monitoring equipment, but are they diagnosing? Are they selecting treatments? Are they doing the surgery? Are they prescribing critical medications?

    They are an essential role but they do not have ownership on treatment decisions or diagnosis.

    I'll repeat a point I made earlier just to clarify, I think nurses on the ward should be on more than they currently are after 5 years of service. But, the average money is 57k/year and this strike is to try to get 12% pay rises for all nurses. If that average is unrepresentative then it indicates a badly skewed structure where we have more nurses in management roles than we should have but the money is still in the pot for nurses and if they get this rise, it will be awarded to all nurses and thus the average will rise to nearly 64k. They have permanent positions, short weeks (but yes long days) and better pension benefits than those in the private sector for what they have to contribute.

    We cannot afford this, it is ignoring the problems elsewhere in the system, it devalues an agreed pay deal, it will trigger additional claims elsewhere.

    Cringe away but if push comes to shove and you are in ICU on a ventilator you will need a skilled nurse rather than a lollipop lady


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    #1190
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I'm a doctor. Every time I'm working I am reliant on the judgement nurses at triage and in the rest of the ED.
    Nurses have absolutely suggested diagnoses to me that have been correct.
    It's very frustrating for me when people act like nurses only have soft skills so I can only imagine how annoyed nurses get.


    What degree of clinical decision making do you think physios make? In my experience a nurse has far more responsibility and capacity to do harm to a patient than a physiotherapist.


    All of this. Huge amount of doctors...people who y'know work with nurses and really know what they're talking about when it comes to knowing what sort of skills and knowledge the average nurse possesses, have come out to say similar.



    People on this thread have no idea what nurses or physios actually do in a hospital setting.

    The level of responsibility a nurse has far outweighs a physio, the two roles are incomparable anyway. A physio won't be going near a patient until a doctor oks it and like doctors are hugely reliant on the information about patients provided by nurses before seeing patients on a daily basis. I really can't help but think that part of the disrespect towards nurses during this has a little bit to do with the fact it is a female dominated profession.



    Awful lot of **** on this thread and a huge amount of disrespect to the level of knowledge and skills that a graduate nurse and onwards has. Do people really think a graduate physio deserves to earn so much more than a graduate nurse? Holy Jesus they do not. A physio is on a par with an occupational therapist yet I haven't heard much reference to OTs...I wonder is that because people have no clue what these professions actually do :rolleyes:


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    #1191
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    RacoonQueen wrote: »

    I really can't help but think that part of the disrespect towards nurses during this has a little bit to do with the fact it is a female dominated profession.


    Ah - the gender card - so no dissenting opinions now. By the way, what is the male/female ratio in Physio, OT and Speech and Language Therapy ?


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    #1192
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    A consultant in the hospital I worked would always advise his junior team " Listen to the nurses and hear what they have to say and learn from them . You need the nurses knowledge "
    He was a very astute man


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    #1193
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    This “claim” will break the country again, of that there is no doubt. Spread across all the PS this will add billions to the pay bill- with the potential loss of revenue via Brexit, the risk of higher unemployment benefit expenditure it’s pretty easy see how fast we will land ourselves back in 2009 territory.


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    #1194
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    road_high wrote: »
    This “claim” will break the country again, of that there is no doubt. Spread across all the PS this will add billions to the pay bill- with the potential loss of revenue via Brexit, the risk of higher unemployment benefit expenditure it’s pretty easy see how fast we will land ourselves back in 2009 territory.

    Yep everyone wants something.

    Free houses for all.

    Pay increases.

    New schools.

    New everything.

    Bust again in no time.


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    #1195
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Yep everyone wants something.

    Free houses for all.

    Pay increases.

    New schools.

    New everything.

    Bust again in no time.

    Certainly heading that way. Entry level nurse pay perhaps warrants some kind of attention but other than that absolutely no way.


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    #1196
    turbbo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Yep everyone wants something.

    Free houses for all.

    Pay increases.

    New schools.

    New everything.

    Bust again in no time.

    Sure we are already bust - https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland


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    #1197
    turbbo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    A consultant in the hospital I worked would always advise his junior team " Listen to the nurses and hear what they have to say and learn from them . You need the nurses knowledge "
    He was a very astute man

    That's a nice wee story. Lovely!


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    #1198
    turbbo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I'm a doctor. Every time I'm working I am reliant on the judgement nurses at triage and in the rest of the ED.
    Nurses have absolutely suggested diagnoses to me that have been correct.
    It's very frustrating for me when people act like nurses only have soft skills so I can only imagine how annoyed nurses get.


    What degree of clinical decision making do you think physios make? In my experience a nurse has far more responsibility and capacity to do harm to a patient than a physiotherapist.

    Internet_dog.jpg


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    #1199
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    All of this. Huge amount of doctors...people who y'know work with nurses and really know what they're talking about when it comes to knowing what sort of skills and knowledge the average nurse possesses, have come out to say similar.



    People on this thread have no idea what nurses or physios actually do in a hospital setting.

    The level of responsibility a nurse has far outweighs a physio, the two roles are incomparable anyway. A physio won't be going near a patient until a doctor oks it and like doctors are hugely reliant on the information about patients provided by nurses before seeing patients on a daily basis. I really can't help but think that part of the disrespect towards nurses during this has a little bit to do with the fact it is a female dominated profession.



    Awful lot of **** on this thread and a huge amount of disrespect to the level of knowledge and skills that a graduate nurse and onwards has. Do people really think a graduate physio deserves to earn so much more than a graduate nurse? Holy Jesus they do not. A physio is on a par with an occupational therapist yet I haven't heard much reference to OTs...I wonder is that because people have no clue what these professions actually do :rolleyes:


    And do you think a bad nurse should earn as much as good nurse?

    Put a proper system in place, give them the pay rise but let's put a proper system in place where they get rises based on performance, sacked when stupid mistakes are made, get rid of the current work schedule and ensure they work 5 days a week with 8 hours a day(nurses against this). No extra pay for working weekends, it becomes a normal job like IT etc, where you work the weekend you get it back in normal pay or time off.

    And stop this twitter campaign about working xmas day, loads of people work xmas and don't get that much extra pay.

    So lets normalize the role.


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    #1200
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    1641 wrote: »
    Ah - the gender card - so no dissenting opinions now. By the way, what is the male/female ratio in Physio, OT and Speech and Language Therapy ?


    About the same as nursing but they're not the ones looking for pay rises so their gender is irrelevant in this.



    I'm the last person who would play the 'gender card', for the record, I'm the most anti-feminist female you could meet. Calling it the 'gender card' speaks volumes anyway.


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    #1201
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    average_runner wrote: »

    And stop this twitter campaign about working xmas day, loads of people work xmas and don't get that much extra pay.

    So lets normalize the role.


    What is the premium for working Christmas - anyone know?


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