The 'Drink Link'

cgcsb · 14-05-2018 9:28am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Come up with some alternative suggestions rather than assumptions about what I might think, this is about Ross and the drink link.

Come up with your own alternative suggestions for your own first world problems.

whisky_galore · 14-05-2018 9:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

Just imagine how vibrant rural Ireland would be now if all the one off houses built in the last 20 years were instead built in the immediate vicinity of towns and villages instead of all over the place

That's rural Irelands biggest issue

Rural Ireland was ALWAYS 'one off housing', it's not a recent thing. And not all of them were farmers.

Not everyone wants to live in a town or village for whatever reasons, people now can't seem to get their heads around this.

Hurrache · 14-05-2018 10:55am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not everyone wants to live in a town or village for whatever reasons, people now can't seem to get their heads around this.

People by and large have no problem with that choice (apart from those with issues on one off housing). Where the problem starts is when people who chose to live in such an area start complaining about that lack of public transport afterwards, despite the fact there was never any in the first place.

Experience_day · 14-05-2018 10:17pm

Hurrache wrote: »

People by and large have no problem with that choice (apart from those with issues on one off housing). Where the problem starts is when people who chose to live in such an area start complaining about that lack of public transport afterwards, despite the fact there was never any in the first place.

Or just overly restrictive laws on drink and driving....

No one is saying someone should get sh it faced and drive after 15 pints, but proposed measures make it unfeasible...

14-05-2018 11:46pm

Experience_day wrote: »

Or just overly restrictive laws on drink and driving....

No one is saying someone should get sh it faced and drive after 15 pints, but proposed measures make it unfeasible...

When you take into account the tiny fraction on the roads that are tested for alcohol and the amount of people going through the courts, losing licences and paying fines for drink driving offences, it's glaringly obvious that the existing penalties are an insufficient deterrent and much stricter rules are needed along with harsher penalties

There are many things Ross has gotten wrong, but this isn't one of them

https://www.drinkdriversdestroylives.ie/drink-driving-fast-facts/

L1011 · 15-05-2018 8:36am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Rural Ireland was ALWAYS 'one off housing', it's not a recent thing. And not all of them were farmers.

Not everyone wants to live in a town or village for whatever reasons, people now can't seem to get their heads around this.

It wasn't. Cluster development was the norm - 6/8 houses in a clachan. Which is actually just about viable to provide services to rather than every house being 30m up its own driveway and 200m apart

Hurrache · 15-05-2018 9:49am

Experience_day wrote: »

Or just overly restrictive laws on drink and driving....

No one is saying someone should get sh it faced and drive after 15 pints, but proposed measures make it unfeasible...

There's nothing overly restrictive about them, they're very easy to adhere to.

drunkmonkey · 15-05-2018 9:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

When you take into account the tiny fraction on the roads that are tested for alcohol and the amount of people going through the courts, losing licences and paying fines for drink driving offences, it's glaringly obvious that the existing penalties are an insufficient deterrent and much stricter rules are needed along with harsher penalties

There are many things Ross has gotten wrong, but this isn't one of them

https://www.drinkdriversdestroylives.ie/drink-driving-fast-facts/

Stricter rules and harsher penalties don't solve anything aka the war on drugs. They are not a deterrent. Do you think anyone going to chance driving home in the country side on a wet and windy night gives a continental what laws they make in Dublin. They know they won't be caught as there's no Garda or other means of transport.
If you want to stop people drinking and driving you ensure there's a working transport system that works for everyone not just city dwellers. This drink link is a piss poor attempt at achieving that.
Ross's proposal will destroy life's also but not for people in well serviced areas.

This law change is going nowhere just like this drink link proposal.

Markcheese · 15-05-2018 10:19am

Wouldn't something like uber be a way better system to get people to and from the pubs?
If there's only trade 1 or 2 nights a week the local driver only has to work 1 or 2 nights... It could even be the local publican who does the drive ( knowing he's covered insurance wise ect),

Actually It'd probably just be a lot cheaper for the state to cover the insurance for an occasional rural minibus scheme..
Only thing is, lads who are paying a fiver for a pint would probably be too mean to pay a fiver for a shared lift home...

drunkmonkey · 15-05-2018 10:35am

Uber would work but as the city boys in the thread said it's a cancer and screw the country boys with their drink obsession. There not really getting it.

15-05-2018 11:13am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Stricter rules and harsher penalties don't solve anything aka the war on drugs.

You are comparing apples and oranges, please try again

15-05-2018 11:16am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Uber would work but as the city boys in the thread said it's a cancer and screw the country boys with their drink obsession. There not really getting it.

It would appear to be yourself who is not getting it

See post https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/106971524

n97 mini · 15-05-2018 11:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

The Uber argument is a fallacy

If such a market existed in rural areas there would already be taxis and hackney's servicing

Deleted User wrote: »

It would appear to be yourself who is not getting it

See post https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/106971524

The operating costs and fares for Uber are substantially lower than taxis, so your argument isn't accurate. If an area can't support a high-cost taxi it does not necessarily mean it can't support a low-cost Uber.

Markcheese · 15-05-2018 12:28pm

The problem for taxi's and hackney's in rural areas is you pay for licence and insurance on a 24 / 7 basis.. You can't just get insurance for a few hours sat / Sunday...
An uber is pay as you go.. Your customer pays uber, they deduct their fee( covering insurance) and pay the operator...

15-05-2018 1:43pm

Sigh, ok, tell you what, how about you go ahead and outline the status of Uber in rural areas of the US. Can't wait to see what evidence there is given the model of Uber in no way works in the rural markets.

drunkmonkey · 15-05-2018 1:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh, ok, tell you what, how about you go ahead and outline the status of Uber in rural areas of the US. Can't wait to see what evidence there is given the model of Uber in no way works in the rural markets.

You do know there's a slight size difference between rural areas in the USA and here. It's a little island, Uber is perfect for it as it's all relatively small distances.
It's a 4/5 day drive across the states from one side to the other. What's it just over 2hrs from Dublin to Galway.
You don't know it won't work so don't be as dismissive of things before your try them. Sigh.

15-05-2018 5:12pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You do know there's a slight size difference between rural areas in the USA and here. It's a little island, Uber is perfect for it as it's all relatively small distances.
It's a 4/5 day drive across the states from one side to the other. What's it just over 2hrs from Dublin to Galway.
You don't know it won't work so don't be as dismissive of things before your try them. Sigh.

I'll say it again, and make it easier. Show any evidence of Uber working in a rural area in any country in the world.

Ubers model is a high turnover city based model, not "a few quid on the weekend" model.

If such a demand existed in Irelands towns and villages, the place would be flooded with Hackney cabs the length and breadth of the country.

n97 mini · 15-05-2018 5:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll say it again, and make it easier. Show any evidence of Uber working in a rural area in any country in the world.

Ubers model is a high turnover city based model, not "a few quid on the weekend" model.

If such a demand existed in Irelands towns and villages, the place would be flooded with Hackney cabs the length and breadth of the country.

Uber (and Lyft) has started to move into more rural areas in the US. I've driven extensively in the US and it's possible to drive for 30 miles and not see a house, so granted, nothing will ever work there. But that scenario doesn't exist here.

While hackney licenses are cheap, the insurance isn't, and the fares can't compete with Uber (and Lyft).

drunkmonkey · 15-05-2018 5:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll say it again, and make it easier. Show any evidence of Uber working in a rural area in any country in the world.

Ubers model is a high turnover city based model, not "a few quid on the weekend" model.

If such a demand existed in Irelands towns and villages, the place would be flooded with Hackney cabs the length and breadth of the country.

It's like talking to a weatherproof fence, nothings seeping through.

Show me another Ireland?

The cost of running a taxi business are prohibitive on the runs were talking about, this is some kind of app based system that makes it easy for locals to look after locals that's been suggested.

There's something on trial in Clare at the moment around that concept.

You like many of the others aren't offering any ideas beyond suck it up. It's the Shane Ross attitude.

15-05-2018 7:17pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's like talking to a weatherproof fence, nothings seeping through.

Show me another Ireland?

The cost of running a taxi business are prohibitive on the runs were talking about, this is some kind of app based system that makes it easy for locals to look after locals that's been suggested.

There's something on trial in Clare at the moment around that concept.

You like many of the others aren't offering any ideas beyond suck it up. It's the Shane Ross attitude.

What you are talking about still requires a psv licence and the appropriate insurance. This would not change. Normal insurance does not cover the use of a private car in this manner in Ireland

bk · 15-05-2018 8:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What you are talking about still requires a psv licence and the appropriate insurance. This would not change. Normal insurance does not cover the use of a private car in this manner in Ireland

However Uber does cover insurance in most countries and could do so in Ireland too.

It is self-insurance in a similar manner to what Dublin Bus do.

The government could also create a scheme to cover the insurance costs for people willing to drive in rural areas. Just need to get the PSV license then, making it easier to be just a part time job.

Non of this is unusual, we had hackneys operating here like this for decades.

n97 mini · 15-05-2018 10:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What you are talking about still requires a psv licence and the appropriate insurance. This would not change. Normal insurance does not cover the use of a private car in this manner in Ireland

As already stated Uber self insures. As things stand a psv licence is cheap but the associated insurance is not, which leads to high fares, which in turn puts people off using a hackney/taxi service.

15-05-2018 10:21pm

So the solution is either (a) get Uber to pay for high insurance and to only be allowed service small towns and villages where there isn't even enough trade to keep a local hackney cab in business or (b) get the govt to pay for the insurance for part time drivers who now have a psv licence, free insurance and all in the hopes they won't go into the cities to make a load more cash

Good luck with that

n97 mini · 15-05-2018 10:50pm

Uber doesn't pay for insurance. Like Dublin Bus etc, it self insures. That is, it has deep enough pockets to cover any claims. So the argument that it there isn't enough business to keep a hackney going, which has to cover his/her own insurance, isn't comparable.

(No-one suggested your option b)

howiya · 15-05-2018 10:56pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Uber doesn't pay for insurance. Like Dublin Bus etc, it self insures. That is, it has deep enough pockets to cover any claims. So the argument that it there isn't enough business to keep a hackney going, which has to cover his/her own insurance, isn't comparable.

(No-one suggested your option b)

If Uber have deep enough pockets maybe they could purchase the appropriate insurance policies for drivers and then they would be able to operate here in the manner you want them to.

n97 mini · 15-05-2018 11:42pm

howiya wrote: »

If Uber have deep enough pockets maybe they could purchase the appropriate insurance policies for drivers and then they would be able to operate here in the manner you want them to.

I don't think you understand. Uber, like Dublin Bus, don't need to purchase insurance policies. They insure themselves via their deep pockets, just as Dublin Bus does.

howiya · 15-05-2018 11:55pm

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't think you understand. Uber, like Dublin Bus, don't need to purchase insurance policies. They insure themselves via their deep pockets, just as Dublin Bus does.

I understand perfectly.

At present, under current regulations, a potential Uber driver would require an appropriate insurance policy and a PSV license to offer their services to the man/woman on his/her way home from the pub. Uber self insuring doesn't meet the criteria,

Self insurance is nothing to do with deep pockets. Dublin Bus certainly don't have deep pockets.

If their pockets are that deep they can afford the required policies and start offering lifts in rural Ireland tomorrow

bk · 16-05-2018 1:54pm

howiya wrote: »

Self insurance is nothing to do with deep pockets. Dublin Bus certainly don't have deep pockets.

Dublin Bus have deep enough pockets that they are sure they can afford to pay out on any claims and they also use the large numbers of cameras on their buses, along with their own legal team to fight all claims in court and not just pay out like most insurance companies do.

It all ends up costing them less then paying an insurance company.

howiya wrote: »

If their pockets are that deep they can afford the required policies and start offering lifts in rural Ireland tomorrow

Uber in the US partner with a third party insurance company that fully covers their drivers while they are online working for Uber:

https://www.uber.com/newsroom/an-update-on-insurance/

Note interestingly they use different companies in different states in the US. So following this pattern they could do a similar arrangement for drivers here in Ireland with the usual insurance companies.

Or in the long run, Uber is such a big company, they could literally set up their own insurance company and use that to insure drivers, in the end it comes down to which is cheaper for them.

BTW non of this is unusual, big car rental fleets like Hertz, etc. all run their own "insurance companies" and self insure.

howiya · 16-05-2018 2:02pm

bk wrote: »

Dublin Bus have deep enough pockets that they are sure they can afford to pay out on any claims and they also use the large numbers of cameras on their buses, along with their own legal team to fight all claims in court and not just pay out like most insurance companies do.

It all ends up costing them less then paying an insurance company.

Uber in the US partner with a third party insurance company that fully covers their drivers while they are online working for Uber:

https://www.uber.com/newsroom/an-update-on-insurance/

Note interestingly they use different companies in different states in the US. So following this pattern they could do a similar arrangement for drivers here in Ireland with the usual insurance companies.

Or in the long run, Uber is such a big company, they could literally set up their own insurance company and use that to insure drivers, in the end it comes down to which is cheaper for them.

BTW non of this is unusual, big car rental fleets like Hertz, etc. all run their own "insurance companies" and self insure.

I agree self insurance is not unusual. Many small businesses are going down that road now due to what they see as the excessive cost of insurance policies. So it's nothing to do with deep pockets.

The point here is that Uber could operate in rural Ireland in the morning if they obtained the appropriate policy for anyone wanting to drive with them. They are choosing not to and instead want the Government/NTA to change the rules for them.

drunkmonkey · 16-05-2018 2:31pm

howiya wrote: »

The point here is that Uber could operate in rural Ireland in the morning if they obtained the appropriate policy for anyone wanting to drive with them. They are choosing not to and instead want the Government/NTA to change the rules for them.

What do they want the government to change? I thought they just banned the service.

_Kaiser_ · 16-05-2018 2:35pm

As I said over in the AH thread on the subject, this is a farcical idea clearly aimed at the rural vote for the election I reckon we'll be having this year.
Why the taxpayer should fund a booze bus for those who live in rural areas is beyond me, as is the nonsense that the pub is their only social outlet and the drink-driving limits are too harsh.

Here's a novel idea! If you don't have a lift arranged, don't drink and just drive home! Time to grow up and be responsible! If that doesn't work for you.. move somewhere where there are alternatives

We really need to get beyond the drinking culture in this country.

Wanderer78 · 16-05-2018 2:39pm

_Kaiser_ wrote:

Here's a novel idea! If you don't have a lift arranged, don't drink and just drive home! Time to grow up and be responsible! If that doesn't work for you.. move somewhere where there are alternatives

Strangely enough, moving isn't as straight forward as some seem to think so

drunkmonkey · 16-05-2018 2:42pm

Another two fingers to everyone in the countryside, have ye a ticket system going or something.

schemingbohemia · 16-05-2018 3:00pm

Uber self-insuring would require a change in legislation - not likely to happen
Uber setting up their own insurance company - not going to happen, would need a massive amount of up-front money to cover potential claims

CeilingFly · 16-05-2018 3:15pm

With a little luck the people of South dublin will get rid of Shane Ross at next election. Frankly he is full of hot air and hair-brained ideas without an iota of a clue as to how things work in real life.

There is a dreadfully simple solution to this which could be piloted for very small money.

This problem with the proposed system is the lack of flexibility - people will want to travel at different times and in all different directions. You still have the issue of people walking on dark roads from the stopping point to their door.

Solutions

Provide insured vehicles and have people apply for operating them in specific local areas with various regulations applying.

A basic "service fee" would be provided.

A maximum charge of €5 per journey (or maybe return journey) allowable and have that the distance of travel be xxkm and the driver must take to that maximum if required. This prevents misuse but also ensures its affordable

Plenty of semi retired rural people would love to provide such a service and would not be in it to make a huge profit - you could even have driving co-ops with 3/4 drivers covering 2 cars in an area.

16-05-2018 11:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The Uber argument is a fallacy

If such a market existed in rural areas there would already be taxis and hackney's servicing

Where there is a large enough cluster of population this is the reality

The issue with rural Ireland is the one off housing all over the place instead of consolidation in towns and villages.

Just imagine how vibrant rural Ireland would be now if all the one off houses built in the last 20 years were instead built in the immediate vicinity of towns and villages instead of all over the place

That's rural Irelands biggest issue

Might work if rural planning allowed for estates that were not replicas of estates in the cities.
There is no reason for terraced housing in a small village estate. Make estates with detached houses on say 1/5 acre, 12-20 houses with a single entrance to the estate off the main road. Put that on the outskirts of a village and people will purchase.

That is an extreme upper I admit but it would move those one offs into a single concentrated area, and not strewn along the road.

At least avoid the curent trend of putting so many houses (in a country estate) that each house has no garden, room to park one car, and no green space for kids to play.

That is how to develop ghost estates as they have all the drawbacks of city living but none of the benefits (other than somewhat lower cost). They drive people to one off building

Del2005 · 17-05-2018 12:08am

CeilingFly wrote: »

oads from the stopping point to their door.

Solutions

Provide insured vehicles and have people apply for operating them in specific local areas with various regulations applying.

A basic "service fee" would be provided.

A maximum charge of €5 per journey (or maybe return journey) allowable and have that the distance of travel be xxkm and the driver must take to that maximum if required. This prevents misuse but also ensures its affordable

Plenty of semi retired rural people would love to provide such a service and would not be in it to make a huge profit - you could even have driving co-ops with 3/4 drivers covering 2 cars in an area.

That sounds like a highly subsidised taxi. Why should the taxpayer provide a subsidised taxi to people who are drunk in a rural location but not an urban one? It's even cheaper than a return on Dublin Bus which carries thousands a day and you want to subsidise drunks!!

There's no solution to rural transport in this country as the population is too spread out

17-05-2018 12:54am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Might work if rural planning allowed for estates that were not replicas of estates in the cities.
There is no reason for terraced housing in a small village estate. Make estates with detached houses on say 1/5 acre, 12-20 houses with a single entrance to the estate off the main road. Put that on the outskirts of a village and people will purchase.

That is an extreme upper I admit but it would move those one offs into a single concentrated area, and not strewn along the road.

At least avoid the curent trend of putting so many houses (in a country estate) that each house has no garden, room to park one car, and no green space for kids to play.

That is how to develop ghost estates as they have all the drawbacks of city living but none of the benefits (other than somewhat lower cost). They drive people to one off building

That has less to do with planning and more to do with developers cramming as much in to increase their profit margin

dublinbuster · 20-05-2018 2:08am

As a working man paying taxes, i can only afford to go out to the pub a few times a year, does anyone else find it farcical that the FTP will be accepted on these drink links, seeing as most are held by people on welfare?

CeilingFly · 20-05-2018 9:13am

Del2005 wrote: »

That sounds like a highly subsidised taxi. Why should the taxpayer provide a subsidised taxi to people who are drunk in a rural location but not an urban one? It's even cheaper than a return on Dublin Bus which carries thousands a day and you want to subsidise drunks!!

There's no solution to rural transport in this country as the population is too spread out

And the bus service isn't subsidised?

And the Dublin bus service is not subsidised????

Let's stop the sh1te about "my taxes" - most people pay very little tax in relation to the services and payments they receive.

Yes, my proposal is a subsidised taxi service for rural areas where it is uneconomic for a commercial taxi service. It would be a lot cheaper and far more flexible than the current system.

Embossy · 26-05-2018 1:00am

The problem in this country is our scattered population living in one off rural housing. The reality is that we will never have a functioning rural public transport service due to bad planning.

The 'Drink Link'

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