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Jamal Khashoggi killed in Saudi embassy.

  • 18-10-2018 12:11am
    #1
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,314 ✭✭✭✭


    I haven't seen a thread about this so I thought I'd post one.

    Warning: the first link is pretty nasty.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/khashoggi-s-fingers-severed-in-brutal-interrogation-1.3666974

    Here's the latest from the guardian.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/17/jamal-khashoggi-pompeo-to-meet-erdogan-as-gory-reports-of-killing-emerge


    What's unexpected for me isn't the brutality and the nastiness of it all. I think it's horrible but Saudi is a horrible country and I kind of expect it. They are an absolute monarchy that rules by terror and oppression. But I'd only expect it inside the country.

    What gets me is how they broke so many diplomatic norms. Normally these horrible places abuse their own citizens but they tend not to do it outside of their borders. When they do, they try their best to avoid tying it back to themselves and give themselves plausible deniability. In this case they couldn't care less.

    It's also surprising how the west is responding to this and not responding to what saudi are doing in Yemen. I think it's because of the diplomatic consequences. It'd be nice to see the west stand up to them for once but I wonder how much will actually be done and if there will be any consequences. What do you guys think.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Trump would love so early to be able do the same, nothing will happen.


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    All the hysteria about Salisbury, Russians and Novichok. Careful now we don't want to damage the arms sales to the Saudis. They might be horrible f*ckers, but they're OUR horrible f*ckers.......


  • #4
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I am sure it was just rogue elements- that will be the least bad explanation America and the House of Saud will eventually come to in order to maintain their special relationship.


  • #5
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Trump would love so early to be able do the same, nothing will happen.

    But wouldn't which is the point of the thread. It shows an arrogance or lack of awareness that they did this in Turkey. Certainly a strange one but I cannot see any consequences for the country itself. 9/11 proved that noone would stand up to them.


  • #6
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Western involvement in Yemen and Syria is dependent on influence from both Saudi Arabia and Israel. Both are anti Iran.

    I’ve yet to see Yemen make the headlines.

    Con Coughlin of the telegraph is generally seen as an official mouthpiece.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/16/khashoggi-case-troubling-must-not-burn-bridges-saudi-allies/

    So nothing will happen.


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  • #7
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    From what I can read of Coughlins piece he’s somehow convolutely blaming Qatar for this.

    Edit. A few days ago Coughlin wants a war against Russia.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/britain-afraid-make-stand-against-putins-clownish-cronies/


  • #8
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    US hypocrisy really is something to behold. I think the reported audios of torture and fingers being cut off is a subtle message to journalists not to push to hard with this story.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/no-coincidence-saudi-arabia-delivers-us100m-to-us-after-trump-s-rogue-killers-rationale-20181017-p50a5j.html


  • #9
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,184 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    Its all going as expected. The G-7 nations have expressed "concern", the UN wants a "full inquiry" ..... the media will soon receive their instructions to ramp up even more anti-Russia hysteria and after a couple of weeks it will Khashoggi who?


  • #10
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    No outcry from the media.

    It’s not Russia nor Iran. It’s those loveable Islamic extremists. The women hating beheaders.

    The friends of the US and British establishments who like to lecture us all on human rights.


  • #11
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.


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  • #12
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.

    Money talks!


  • #13
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Aaron Shaggy Ointment wrote: »
    Money talks!

    Exactly!


  • #14
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Horrible repulsive regime. When they’re not bombing and starving their neighbours in Yemen they’re funding Salafist Islam and terrorism over here. Utterly backed to the hilt by the US and Britain et al as well, which makes a total mockery of any pretence toward a “war on terror” or anything else.

    This is about oil nothing else. It’s embarassing.


  • #15
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    19 of the 24 hijackers of 911 were from Saudi

    Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi Prince.

    They own the republican party in america.

    Nothing will happen.


  • #16
    3DataModem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.

    To be fair to him, he basically said "there's 500bn of business on the line, so we are going to take a good hard look before jumping to conclusions"


  • #17
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,728 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Nothing will happen.

    Saudis have the world in their grasp with our addiction to oil.

    Only reason we put up with that despotic state is because we need their resources.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • #18
    Bob Harris
    Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭Bob Harris


    3DataModem wrote: »
    To be fair to him, he basically said "there's 500bn of business on the line, so we are going to take a good hard look before jumping to conclusions"

    Watch the Saudi guy smiling as Trump drools over the money.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QtUk3FOlg


  • #19
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.

    Not everything comes back to Trump.


  • #20
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    19 of the 24 hijackers of 911 were from Saudi

    Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi Prince.

    They own the republican party in america.

    Nothing will happen.

    Obama started Yemen.


  • #21
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    The Saudi's are a bunch of degenerates that won the geological lottery.

    They could have changed the world for the better and advanced science and technology and really helped mankind.

    Instead they buy super cars and fund terror.

    The sooner the oil runs out and they are back herding camels, the better.


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  • #22
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Let us know when Rich Boy and Murphy hold the protest at the Saudi embassy or is that only for the Israel and US. embassy


  • #23
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Edgware wrote: »
    Let us know when Rich Boy and Murphy hold the protest at the Saudi embassy or is that only for the Israel and US. embassy

    I'm on tenterhooks waiting for the pox Daly and that scruffy twat Wallace to go and protest the next flight in from Riyadh myself.


  • #24
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.


    Why would you expect trump to have the courage to do something that is against the best interests of his family? Has he ever done that?


  • #25
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Edgware wrote: »
    Let us know when Rich Boy and Murphy hold the protest at the Saudi embassy or is that only for the Israel and US. embassy

    So if somebody protests about one thing they have to protest against everything?


  • #26
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So if somebody protests about one thing they have to protest against everything?
    Bang on


  • #27
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Grayson wrote: »
    It's also surprising how the west is responding to this and not responding to what saudi are doing in Yemen. I think it's because of the diplomatic consequences. It'd be nice to see the west stand up to them for once but I wonder how much will actually be done and if there will be any consequences. What do you guys think.

    I think most of the western leaders couldn't give a toss about diplomatic consequences to be honest. It's economic consequences they're concerned about.

    (other thread on this here : https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057918789&page=7)


  • #28
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So if somebody protests about one thing they have to protest against everything?

    No but they don't have to be craven hypocrites like RBB.


  • #29
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Nothing will happen.

    The Saudis were behind 911 ffs and the yanks responded by bombing their enemies into the stone age for them.

    They couldn't give a rats arse about some Turkish reporter!


  • #30
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    3DataModem wrote: »
    To be fair to him, he basically said "there's 500bn of business on the line, so we are going to take a good hard look before jumping to conclusions"

    Not quite the line he took before starting trade wars ("good and easy to win!") with China and most of what are supposedly his closest allies.


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  • #31
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    They couldn't give a rats arse about some Turkish reporter!

    Except he wasn't 'some Turkish reporter' he was a Saudi reporter living in the US working for the Washington Post.

    Not that I think it will make much of a difference to how much they care. It might make a little bit of difference to how much they pretend to care.

    But whereas if he had been 'some Turkish reporter*' it would have taken a few days to get over the 'outrage' I think now it might actually take a few weeks.

    Then it'll be back to business as usual. (And I don't mean that business as a metaphor either)

    *Turkish reporters disappear all the time


  • #32
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/10/17/17990268/pat-robertson-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-trump-crisis?__twitter_impression=true

    Could only think of this :D



  • #33
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    FTA69 wrote: »
    This is about oil nothing else. It’s embarassing.

    Just to be picky, the US doesn't really need them for energy security any more, as was previously the case.

    Just their money. (... which they happen to get from oil, of course.)


  • #34
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    3DataModem wrote: »
    To be fair to him, he basically said "there's 500bn of business on the line, so we are going to take a good hard look before jumping to conclusions"

    What conclusions are there to draw?

    Regardless of what exactly happened to this poor fella it's been established with CCTV footage that he went into the Saudi consulate and never came back out.

    So whether or not he was dismembered, accidentally died during an 'interrogation', was beamed up by aliens or is pulling an Assange....the saudis know more then they are telling.


  • #35
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    But whereas if he had been 'some Turkish reporter*' it would have taken a few days to get over the 'outrage' I think now it might actually take a few weeks. [...]

    *Turkish reporters disappear all the time

    There's something to that. And likewise, the Saudis execute their own citizens at a rather brisk rate, for things fairly low down the criminality spectrum (if on it at all).

    It being in another country elevates it to an international incident. (Pretty much by definition!)


  • #36
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.

    Yeah, he should have done what Obama would have done. Given lip service to it while carrying on as beforehand in the background.


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  • #37
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    If there's one country which should be blown off the map its the KSA but this disguating country will be treated with kid gloves as usual just to keep arms sales booming its not what you do but who does it.


  • #38
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Horrible repulsive regime. When they’re not bombing and starving their neighbours in Yemen they’re funding Salafist Islam and terrorism over here. Utterly backed to the hilt by the US and Britain et al as well, which makes a total mockery of any pretence toward a “war on terror” or anything else.

    This is about oil nothing else. It’s embarassing.


    Probably something to do with the $900m loan that trumps son-in-law received from the Qataris. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/05/kushner-cos-brookfield-qatar


    Trump puts his families businesses about EVERYTHING else.


  • #39
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    wexie wrote: »
    What conclusions are there to draw?

    Regardless of what exactly happened to this poor fella it's been established with CCTV footage that he went into the Saudi consulate and never came back out.

    So whether or not he was dismembered, accidentally died during an 'interrogation', was beamed up by aliens or is pulling an Assange....the saudis know more then they are telling.

    I imagine that if the Saudis write the Turks a large enough cheque, there will suddenly be some remarkably fuzzy CCTV footage "found" that proves he did leave the embassy after all. "Subsequent" disappearance is now a total mystery. The lavishly described recordings from inside the embassy never actually appear.


  • #40
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Nixonbot wrote: »
    https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/10/17/17990268/pat-robertson-khashoggi-saudi-arabia-trump-crisis?__twitter_impression=true

    The US "Christian" Right. If they were at the Sermon on the Mount, they'd be heckling at the back.


  • #41
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Sickening the way Trump is trying to downplay it, I would have expected him to at least have the courage to call it out.

    Keep lowering your expectations of Trump.

    Bit more.

    Bit more still.

    No, I'll tell you when, really...


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  • #42
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    If there's one country which should be blown off the map its the KSA but that disgusting country is treated with kid gloves just to boost arm sales note the lack of reaction to Yemen in which Saudi is heavely involved its simply seen as a minor inconvenience.


  • #43
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Probably something to do with the $900m loan that trumps son-in-law received from the Qataris. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/05/kushner-cos-brookfield-qatar


    Trump puts his families businesses about EVERYTHING else.

    God forbid that it looks like I’m defending Trump but it should be pointed out that the Qataris are the best of enemies with the Saudies. The Qataris are on Iran’s side in the insanity that is Middle Eastern politics.


  • #44
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    God forbid that it looks like I’m defending Trump but it should be pointed out that the Qataris are the best of enemies with the Saudies. The Qataris are on Iran’s side in the insanity that is Middle Eastern politics.


    Indeed they are but perhaps you should have read the article


    Some political observers’ eyebrows were raised when, just a few weeks after Charlie’s talks with the Qataris fell apart, his son endorsed a Saudi- and U.A.E.-led blockade of Qatar.
    One wonders if the Trump administration will continue to support the blockade, or whether it will suddenly have a change of heart now that the Qatar Investment Authority, via Brookfield, has opened its wallet.


  • #45
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    US hypocrisy really is something to behold. I think the reported audios of torture and fingers being cut off is a subtle message to journalists not to push to hard with this story.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/no-coincidence-saudi-arabia-delivers-us100m-to-us-after-trump-s-rogue-killers-rationale-20181017-p50a5j.html

    Given the international condemnation and the consequences for Davos in the Sand and other Saudi dreams of becoming known for something other than oil fields I think it is much more likely that these leaks are only because of Turkish spying.

    If this is the case, the torture and brutal murder were just a personal message. That is a level of psychosis that exceeds ISIS standards. At least their barbarism had an effect of spreading fear and gaining propaganda.


  • #46
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    wexie wrote: »
    What conclusions are there to draw?

    Regardless of what exactly happened to this poor fella it's been established with CCTV footage that he went into the Saudi consulate and never came back out.

    So whether or not he was dismembered, accidentally died during an 'interrogation', was beamed up by aliens or is pulling an Assange....the saudis know more then they are telling.




    Somebody may well emerge and "take the bullet" for the crown prince - spend a few years inside and quietly released later on.


    Overall the whole thing is a bit mad. They know their embassy is being watched. He could have "fallen" off a balcony, "shot" himself, "overdosed" somewhere, all of which leave some plausibile deniability.


  • #47
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Overall the whole thing is a bit mad. They know their embassy is being watched. He could have "fallen" off a balcony, "shot" himself, "overdosed" somewhere, all of which leave some plausibile deniability.

    I think that is probably the more worrying development.

    It's worrying that a Russian defector was nearly assassinated on English soil, it's worrying that a Saudi dissident was (allegedly) murdered in the Saudi consulate.

    What's more worrying is that they were both done in such brazen ways as to nearly not be deniable, and then denied with 'implausible' deniability.

    I'd be surprised if similar things haven't happened in the not so distant past but they were the good old 'mugging gone wrong', heart attack, car accident ya know, good aul sensible ways of bumping off people.

    There's a very interesting article here about the Russian practice of Vranyo.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/magazine/from-russia-with-lies.html

    (yes yes I know that it's Saudi's we're talking about but the idea is the same :they're lying, we know they're lying, they know that we know that they are lying but they keep lying anyway)


  • #48
    Deise Vu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭Deise Vu


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Indeed they are but perhaps you should have read the article

    The article states that the Qataris have bailed the Kushners out of a disastrous property investment after initially baulking. In between baulking and deciding to back the Kushners, Jared endorsed the Saudi led blockade of Qatar because of their alleged support for terrorism.

    If Jared now considers the Qataris to be his best buddies due to their munificence then the USA are more likely to condemn the Saudis than less likely. Or am I missing something?


  • #49
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    No but they don't have to be craven hypocrites like RBB.

    We get it. You don’t like him. But he doesn’t have anything to do with the topic so why are you boring us?


  • #50
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,513 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    The article states that the Qataris have bailed the Kushners out of a disastrous property investment after initially baulking. In between baulking and deciding to back the Kushners, Jared endorsed the Saudi led blockade of Qatar because of their alleged support for terrorism.

    If Jared now considers the Qataris to be his best buddies due to their munificence then the USA are more likely to condemn the Saudis than less likely. Or am I missing something?

    yes
    One wonders if the Trump administration will continue to support the blockade, or whether it will suddenly have a change of heart now that the Qatar Investment Authority, via Brookfield, has opened its wallet.


  • #51
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Trump has also boasted of his real estate dealings with the Saudis, and they are also big customers in his hotels.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-saudi-arabia-financial-interests-ties-hotel-bookings-sales-2018-10

    Now of course Trump/US can't be singled out for dealings with the sh1t hole, but when you look at his stance towards Cuba, Iran etc it males it a bit more ridiculous.


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