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Recommend a running shoe

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    #32
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Quay_Inn wrote: »
    Christ you're insufferable. He's deciding on a pair of shoes, not a chemotherapy treatment. The medicine comparison is just ludicrous. There is a consensus about which shoe manufacturers produce decent running shoes, and when given a few options he can make the final decision himself. If he ends up ordering a pair that turns out to be a bad fit, he can easily return them.

    Saying that you cannot advise somebody is not helpful. If you won't help, then leave it to the people who will.

    OP - I suggest a pair of Hoka Clifton 6. They're 20 euro above your budget but are very well regarded in the running community. I've had my pair for over a year and they're holding up well - very comfortable.

    The medicine example illustrates the stupidity of relying on brands.

    Plucking names out of the air is not advising him.

    If you don't understand the importance of foot mechanics, then leave it to people who do.

    I'm delighted your shoes fit you.


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    #33
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    KSU wrote: »
    Your gait is not pre-determined though, it's in a state of flux just think of how many times a minute your muscles will go through contraction cycle and all the variables such as hydration, fatigue, mineral content will affect each muscle fibre and how this affects muscle recruitment and in turn how muscles act and react with each other.

    Strong, healthy muscles will be able to deal with change and the point is that building up this foundation is more important than the shoes you run in outside of what feels natural to you (which is not a pre determined state)

    Hydration or fatigue have nothing to do with under pronation or overpronation. if you do one, other or neither, you will do it all the time. Running shoes help manage whichever you do. I have run far and reasonably seriously for a good few years and I have under pronated for every mile of it.


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    #34
    caff
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭caff


    Only injury I ever got from having the wrong shoes was due to the sole wearing unevenly forcing foot strike mechanic to change. No way to predict that in a shop one way or the other. Just buy a shoe run in it and if its not working bin it and move on to the next one.


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    #35
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    First Up wrote: »
    Hydration or fatigue have nothing to do with under pronation or overpronation. if you do one, other or neither, you will do it all the time. Running shoes help manage whichever you do. I have run far and reasonably seriously for a good few years and I have under pronated for every mile of it.

    That first bit is simply not true. Hip actions make up a huge component of the gait cycle and any sort of fatigue here will compromise trunk stability which will influence load bearing, not to mention that hip musculature in a chronic shortened position can replicate apparent leg length discrepancies. This is a major problem with a lot of gait analysis, the rarely look beyond the ankle and even those that do don't look to the why.

    It's like taking a portrait painting it might look pretty but it doesn't tell you anything about the person in the picture.


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    #36
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    KSU wrote:
    That first bit is simply not true. Hip actions make up a huge component of the gait cycle and any sort of fatigue here will compromise trunk stability which will influence load bearing, not to mention that hip musculature in a chronic shortened position can replication apparent leg length discrepancies. This is a major problem with a lot of gait analysis, the rarely look beyond the ankle and even those that do don't look to the why.


    Fatigue may accentuate underpronation or overpronation but it won't turn one into the other.


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    #37
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭healy1835


    Www.solereview.com

    Have goo on there. Pretty thorough reviews, have always found it pretty reliable.


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    #38
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    caff wrote:
    Only injury I ever got from having the wrong shoes was due to the sole wearing unevenly forcing foot strike mechanic to change. No way to predict that in a shop one way or the other. Just buy a shoe run in it and if its not working bin it and move on to the next one.


    You could save some money (and foot pain) by informing yourself.


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    #39
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    First Up wrote: »
    Fatigue may accentuate underpronation or overpronation but it won't turn one into the other.

    Out of interest roughly how many people excessively under pronate?

    Also pronation is natural occurrence it only becomes an issue when it becomes excessive shouldn't the accentuation be a driving factor rather than simply having equipment that will allow compensation to occur in another area of the kinetic chain?


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    #40
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,427 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    First Up wrote: »
    You could save some money (and foot pain) by informing yourself.

    You could save some agression and have a look at actual research about the effect of gait on both performance and injury risk. You’ll find no evidence for making meaningful shoe recommendations based on gait. The only evidence available suggests subjective feelings of ‘comfort’ is the key, as has been pointed out several times.


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    #41
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Murph_D wrote:
    You could save some agression and have a look at actual research about the effect of gait on both performance and injury risk. You’ll find no evidence for making meaningful shoe recommendations based on gait. The only evidence available suggests subjective feelings of ‘comfort’ is the key, as has been pointed out several times.

    All I have done in this discussion is suggest people get expert advice. If you find that aggressive, it is your problem and nobody else's.


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    #42
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,427 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    First Up wrote: »
    All I have done in this discussion is suggest people get expert advice. If you find that aggressive, it is your problem and nobody else's.

    You started out by equating expert advice with getting gait analysis done in a running shop. That suggests you know more about marketing than about meaningful advice. Since then you've just dug in. You're welcome to your opinion about running shops and the people who work in them, many of which are indeed excellent. But anyone who points me towards the gait analysis machine gets politely declined because it's a gimmick. Many of us on this forum are fairly knowledgable about the sport we pursue, and we know this.

    It's certainly a good idea to try on lots of shoes in the price range and pick the one that feels best, then try it for a few runs, as has been suggested. The OP of course can't do that in the current climate, so if s/he can't wait for the shops to reopen, a punt is unfortunately necessary.


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    #43
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Murph_D wrote:
    You started out by equating expert advice with getting gait analysis done in a running shop. That suggests you know more about marketing than about meaningful advice. Since then you've just dug in. You're welcome to your opinion about running shops and the people who work in them, many of which are indeed excellent. But anyone who points me towards the gait analysis machine gets politely declined because it's a gimmick. Many of us on this forum are fairly knowledgable about the sport we pursue, and we know this.


    I started out by saying that suggesting brands or your own shoes does not constitute advice and suggesting that the OP look for a trustworthy source.

    We can swap each other's expertise if you like but that is not my point. As this thread shows, asking for advice in an internet forum is not a good idea.


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    #44
    Swashbuckler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Swashbuckler


    Well to be technical he/she did ask us to recommend a runner, not for advice on gait analysis. If he/she asked for advice on the latter I'd have said nothing......

    So for sure, this is a good place to come look for commentary on a shoe. I've never had gait analysis and amazingly my legs haven't fallen off yet......


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    #45
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Swashbuckler wrote:
    Well to be technical he/she did ask us to recommend a runner, not for advice on gait analysis. If he/she asked for advice on the latter I'd have said nothing......


    I mentioned gait analysis as an example of why a buyer will get more useful information from someone in the shoe business than from anonymous people in Boards.

    I am no more in a position to recommend shoes than anyone else here. I do however have a much better understanding of where useful information and advice can be found.


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    #46
    MY BAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    I'm with Murph_D on on this one. Gait analysis is largely a marketing ploy. Getting advice from some young lad working part-time in Elverys who will then advise to buy some insoles along with stability shoes.... Comfort and the drop is the most important for me anyways but each to their own.


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    #47
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:
    I'm with Murph_D on on this one. Gait analysis is largely a marketing ploy. Getting advice from some young lad working part-time in Elverys who will then advise to buy some insoles along with stability shoes.... Comfort and the drop is the most important for me anyways but each to their own.

    Tell that to the OP with his arch problems and the other poster with bruised feet from his worn down shoes.

    There's better sources of advice than young lads in Elverys. If you are serious about running (on roads especially) you will go to a proper shop.


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    #48
    MY BAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    First Up wrote: »
    Tell that to the OP with his arch problems and the other poster with bruised feet from his worn down shoes.

    There's better sources of advice than young lads in Elverys. If you are serious about running (on roads especially) you will go to a proper shop.
    Worn Down shoes should be replaced. I have got gait analysis done a good few times in running specialist shops with different results. I'll always try and support local running shops to be fair. I'm mainly a road runner too covering 3000 plus km per year so I've a good knowledge of what works for me. Like I said each to their own.


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    #49
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »
    I'm with Murph_D on on this one. Gait analysis is largely a marketing ploy. Getting advice from some young lad working part-time in Elverys who will then advise to buy some insoles along with stability shoes.... Comfort and the drop is the most important for me anyways but each to their own.

    While I agree with you I have to laugh at the example simply because a mate of mine was working for them part time when he started off in the sports therapy gig. Had plenty of experience (worked with NZ All Blacks during Autumn tours over here etc) but hadn't yet took the plunge to go out on his own and wanted to establish contacts he had built up while there.

    Interestingly didn't toe the line regarding some questionable products backed by science and didn't last too much longer when he wouldn't push said product and meet sales targets.


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    #50
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    First Up wrote: »
    Tell that to the OP with his arch problems and the other poster with bruised feet from his worn down shoes.

    Shoes will alleviate the symptom not the problem. Need to be looking deeper at the why of the wear pattern and whether the body is sufficiently coping with it.


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    #51
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:
    Worn Down shoes should be replaced. I have got gait analysis done a good few times in running specialist shops with different results. I'll always try and support local running shops to be fair. I'm mainly a road runner too covering 3000 plus km per year so I've a good knowledge of what works for me. Like I said each to their own.

    The poster with the worn soles said his shoes wore down unevenly. He went on to say there was no way to predict this so he was just going to buy shoes and if they didn't work out, he would buy more.

    This flies in the face of both the proven connection between gait and shoe choice and the availability of proper advice.

    There is no reason to be that stupid.


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    #52
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,427 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    First Up wrote: »
    The poster with the worn soles said his shoes wore down unevenly. He went on to say there was no way to predict this so he was just going to buy shoes and if they didn't work out, he would buy more.

    This flies in the face of both the proven connection between gait and shoe choice and the availability of proper advice.

    There is no reason to be that stupid.

    What is this proven connection of which you speak? Can you point towards the proof?


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    #53
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Murph_D wrote:
    What is this proven connection of which you speak? Can you point towards the proof?


    The internet is awash with scholarly articles about it. Try googling gait analysis.

    Or talk to a serious running shoe retailer.


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    #54
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,427 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    First Up wrote: »
    The internet is awash with scholarly articles about it. Try googling gait analysis.

    Or talk to a serious running shoe retailer.

    Ok. So you don’t know.


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    #55
    MY BAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭MY BAD


    First Up wrote: »
    The poster with the worn soles said his shoes wore down unevenly.
    There is alot more he could be doing to address the issues than getting gait analysis in my opinion. I'd advise anyone in a similar position to look a bit deeper.


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    #56
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Murph_D wrote:
    Ok. So you don’t know.


    ???
    Of course I know but I am not going to regurgitate information that is readily available to anyone who bothers to look for it.

    Should I prove to you that the earth isn't flat while I'm at it?


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    #57
    OOnegative
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    First Up wrote: »
    ???
    Of course I know but I am not going to regurgitate information that is readily available to anyone who bothers to look for it.

    Should I prove to you that the earth isn't flat while I'm at it?

    No you don’t know, you haven’t a blues clue. Back up what you’ve been spouting on about here the past few days with some facts? You’ve agued but offered zero facts to back your claims up?

    You claimed you ran seriously at some stage, again I seriously doubt that fact because you wouldn’t be so aggressive and ignorant to the advice being offered to the OP here?


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    #58
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:
    There is alot more he could be doing to address the issues than getting gait analysis in my opinion. I'd advise anyone in a similar position to look a bit deeper.


    Gait can't be easily changed (if at all) but it can be easily managed by wearing the right shoes.


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    #59
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,427 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    First Up wrote: »
    Gait can't be easily changed (if at all) but it can be easily managed by wearing the right shoes.

    So what? There is no evidence that changing gait (or rather ‘correcting’ pronation by wearing support shoes etc) does anything to prevent injury (or increase running economy and thus performance).

    Contrary to what you suggest, the internet is not awash with scholarly articles that support the pronation argument. Plenty of marketing articles though, and the shoe companies have been very successful at propogating myths about pronation.

    Here’s one useful summary of some of the research:

    https://runnersconnect.net/running-gait-analysis-footwear/

    Here’s a more thorough overview:

    Running Shoe Technology: Good Science or Good Marketing?


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    #60
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    OOnegative wrote:
    No you don’t know, you haven’t a blues clue. Back up what you’ve been spouting on about here the past few days with some facts? You’ve agued but offered zero facts to back your claims up?
    What have I been spouting on about - that there are shoes designed to cater for different runners and its a good idea to get the right ones for you? Sorry but I'm not here to help you grasp the blindingly obvious.
    OOnegative wrote:
    You claimed you ran seriously at some stage, again I seriously doubt that fact because you wouldn’t be so aggressive and ignorant to the advice being offered to the OP here?

    What is aggressive about calling out people recommending shoes without knowing anything about the person who will wear them?

    My running credentials are good but have nothing to do with it.


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    #61
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Murph_D wrote:
    Contrary to what you suggest, the internet is not awash with scholarly articles that support the pronation argument. Plenty of marketing articles though, and the shoe companies have been very successful at propogatinf myths about pronation.


    So all shoes are the same and it doesn't matter what you wear? Its all just marketing mumbo jumbo?

    Thanks for putting us straight on that.


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