Irish Over 50s & over 65s Championships

sodacat11 · 17-12-2019 10:18pm #1

I notice that quite a few of the people entered for these competitions aren't currently paid up members of the ICU. I don't think that anyone who hasn't paid their subscription should be eligible to win prizes in these tournaments or in any others for that matter.

macelligott · 29-12-2019 10:47pm

Quite a strong field.
46 entries so far, including two former Irish champions.
https://www.icu.ie/events/1292

Joedryan · 04-01-2020 1:20am

Who is Robin Moss??

I've searched him in FIDE ratings database and he is coming up as English Federation.

Anybody?

macelligott · 04-01-2020 1:26am

Joedryan wrote: »

Who is Robin Moss??

I've searched him in FIDE ratings database and he is coming up as English Federation.

Anybody?

Robin Moss also played in the 50+ last year.
It is not a closed event. Players from other federations are allowed to enter.

Joedryan · 04-01-2020 1:29am

macelligott wrote: »

Robin Moss also played in the 50+ last year.
It is not a closed event. Players from other federations are allowed to enter.

Ah, so if I get this right, if he finished first then he is not awarded the title?

Strange to see this going on in the Seniors, thought we eradicated this shambles in all Irish events a while back.

zeitnot · 04-01-2020 3:25am

Joedryan wrote: »

Ah, so if I get this right, if he finished first then he is not awarded the title?

Strange to see this going on in the Seniors, thought we eradicated this shambles in all Irish events a while back.

"Shambles" is a bit strong! Allowing non-Irish players was eliminated for the Irish Championship itself, but not for other events, such as the Irish Women's Championship, Irish Intermediate and Junior Championships, and, yes, the 50+/65+ Championship. Doesn't seem to do that much harm for these secondary events.

Joedryan · 04-01-2020 3:39am

zeitnot wrote: »

"Shambles" is a bit strong! Allowing non-Irish players was eliminated for the Irish Championship itself, but not for other events, such as the Irish Women's Championship, Irish Intermediate and Junior Championships, and, yes, the 50+/65+ Championship. Doesn't seem to do that much harm for these secondary events.

Doesn't seem to do much harm?????

Are you having a laugh, I am trying to figure out the seniors and my head is hurting.

Shambles is correct.

zeitnot · 04-01-2020 5:28am

Joedryan wrote: »

Doesn't seem to do much harm?????

Are you having a laugh, I am trying to figure out the seniors and my head is hurting.

Shambles is correct.

???

I'm in favour of keeping the Irish Championship itself strictly closed (even strongly in favour).

Other than that, who cares? OK, you do, but who else?

IAMAMORON · 04-01-2020 5:55am

Jumping in here ... but if you want to have a strong competition you need to include all players who are prepared to turn up and play.

It is a great game, don't spoil it excluding participants. Give everyone who wants to enter an opportunity to play.

The best player wins.

cdeb · 04-01-2020 9:26am

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Jumping in here ... but if you want to have a strong competition you need to include all players who are prepared to turn up and play.

What if you want to have a competition to decide the best Irish player over 50 though?

Would you allow a promising junior to play who wants to enter the event?

I'm not in favour one way or the other on the matter (it's a decision for those eligible for the tournament), but I do think your argument is overly simplistic.

sodacat11 · 04-01-2020 11:52am

Joedryan wrote: »

Who is Robin Moss??

I've searched him in FIDE ratings database and he is coming up as English Federation.

Anybody?

He was the unfortunate victim of this outrageous swindle http://view.chessbase.com/cbreader/2020/1/4/Game2065604109.html

sodacat11 · 04-01-2020 11:53am

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Jumping in here ... but if you want to have a strong competition you need to include all players who are prepared to turn up and play.

It is a great game, don't spoil it excluding participants. Give everyone who wants to enter an opportunity to play.

The best player wins.

I agree! The more foreign entries the better as far as I'm concerned.

Joedryan · 04-01-2020 11:02pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Jumping in here ... but if you want to have a strong competition you need to include all players who are prepared to turn up and play.

It is a great game, don't spoil it excluding participants. Give everyone who wants to enter an opportunity to play.

The best player wins.

How can that happen if the competition is to find the best Irish Senior?

Not following.

Joedryan · 05-01-2020 1:20am

sodacat11 wrote: »

He was the unfortunate victim of this outrageous swindle http://view.chessbase.com/cbreader/2020/1/4/Game2065604109.html

Nice

zeitnot · 05-01-2020 1:57am

Joedryan wrote: »

How can that happen if the competition is to find the best Irish Senior?

Not following.

If the competition was really mainly about finding the best Irish Senior, there wouldn't be parallel events featuring 4 Irish players rated higher than any in this event. It seems to be more a case of providing a good and enjoyable age-restricted event (at which it seems to be doing an excellent job), with the title thrown in as an added inducement.

Joedryan · 05-01-2020 2:10am

zeitnot wrote: »

If the competition was really mainly about finding the best Irish Senior, there wouldn't be parallel events featuring 4 Irish players rated higher than any in this event. It seems to be more a case of providing a good and enjoyable age-restricted event (at which it seems to be doing an excellent job), with the title thrown in as an added inducement.

That is a good counter argument to be fair.

sodacat11 · 05-01-2020 3:47pm

zeitnot wrote: »

If the competition was really mainly about finding the best Irish Senior, there wouldn't be parallel events featuring 4 Irish players rated higher than any in this event. It seems to be more a case of providing a good and enjoyable age-restricted event (at which it seems to be doing an excellent job), with the title thrown in as an added inducement.

Just because someone wins an Irish Championship (Senior , Junior or main) doesn't necessarily mean that they are "the best" in the category. Peter Wright won the darts world championship last week but I don't think anyone would say that he is better than Van Gerwen. Ken Doherty and Denis Taylor were world snooker champions. Khalifman won the world chess championship as did Max Euwe but I don't think anyone would have called them the best in the world. That is not to detract from the achievement of winning a title because you can only beat the people that are put in front of you. It is irrelevant that Baburin, Daly, Ryan, Wallace, Doyle etc are not playing in this years over 50s, whoever wins it is a worthy champion.

zeitnot · 05-01-2020 6:05pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Just because someone wins an Irish Championship (Senior , Junior or main) doesn't necessarily mean that they are "the best" in the category. Peter Wright won the darts world championship last week but I don't think anyone would say that he is better than Van Gerwen. Ken Doherty and Denis Taylor were world snooker champions. Khalifman won the world chess championship as did Max Euwe but I don't think anyone would have called them the best in the world. That is not to detract from the achievement of winning a title because you can only beat the people that are put in front of you. It is irrelevant that Baburin, Daly, Ryan, Wallace, Doyle etc are not playing in this years over 50s, whoever wins it is a worthy champion.

Sure, no question. But having a small number of non-IRL rated players doesn't diminish the title either, at least as far as I can see.

sodacat11 · 05-01-2020 7:11pm

zeitnot wrote: »

Sure, no question. But having a small number of non-IRL rated players doesn't diminish the title either, at least as far as I can see.

It enhances it. It is always good to play against different opponents.

Joedryan · 06-01-2020 1:29am

Well it seems everybody is happy then!

sodacat11 · 06-01-2020 5:56pm

Not much ambition shown by O'Connor or Delaney in the final game agreeing a draw in 14 moves when a win for either of them would have ensured at least a share of first place. I find it hard to understand, neither of them is that hard up for the prize money.

zeitnot · 06-01-2020 6:09pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

Not much ambition shown by O'Connor or Delaney in the final game agreeing a draw in 14 moves when a win for either of them would have ensured at least a share of first place. I find it hard to understand, neither of them is that hard up for the prize money.

Maybe they're more interested in the title? No IRL player can pass them now. (What is the tie-break system? Is there a tie-break system at all or do they just share the title?)

sodacat11 · 06-01-2020 6:56pm

zeitnot wrote: »

Maybe they're more interested in the title? No IRL player can pass them now. (What is the tie-break system? Is there a tie-break system at all or do they just share the title?)

Oh, I thought that Moss was eligible to win it but probably not since he agreed a draw in a position where he was two pawns up.That explains the quick draw .

ishidaogo · 07-01-2020 12:05am

Any news of norms?

cdeb · 07-01-2020 12:09am

WGM for Trisha and that was it

ishidaogo · 07-01-2020 12:25am

cdeb wrote: »

WGM for Trisha and that was it

Well done Trisha. Very impressive performance.
I particularly liked the win against the Ausrian.

zeitnot · 07-01-2020 12:43am

cdeb wrote: »

WGM for Trisha and that was it

Not quite: she also earned a WIM norm. And since that is her third WIM norm, and she has already reached the required rating, I think that means that she will now be a WIM, Ireland's first.

Also, both she and Killian seem to have crossed 2300 during the events (Trisha yesterday, Killian today), and so (or rather, if so) both will become FMs.

cdeb · 07-01-2020 12:49am

Good stuff on Killian; he wasn't sure if he'd made it or not. Well done!

Worth noting as well the performance of 11-year-old Kavin Venkatesan in the IM norm tournament - was only rated 1870 going into it, but scored 4/9 to gain (by my reckoning) 200 points and move to 2070.

zeitnot · 07-01-2020 1:12am

cdeb wrote: »

Good stuff on Killian; he wasn't sure if he'd made it or not. Well done!

Don't take my word for it! Here are my calculations from Excel (formatting a but messed up, but I hope it's intelligible):

2278 20

Ro Diff "400" Exp Res K (Res-Exp) R
2225 53 53 0.57 1 8.6 2286.6
2283 -5 -5 0.49 1 10.2 2296.8
1815 463 400 0.92 1 1.6 2298.4
2207 71 71 0.6 0.5 -2 2296.4
2320 -42 -42 0.44 0.5 1.2 2297.6
2307 -29 -29 0.46 0 -9.2 2288.4
2175 103 103 0.64 1 7.2 2295.6
2130 148 148 0.7 1 6 2301.6
2418 -140 -140 0.31 0.5 3.8 2305.4

The factor that usually complicates matters is if there is some other event that occurs first or overlaps the one in question. But that can hardly be a problem here.

cdeb · 07-01-2020 8:59am

Armstrong rounds 4 and 5 might actually be an issue - he drew against 1892 and 2142 ICU, so could well lose the 6 points unfortunately.

zeitnot · 07-01-2020 12:46pm

cdeb wrote: »

Armstrong rounds 4 and 5 might actually be an issue - he drew against 1892 and 2142 ICU, so could well lose the 6 points unfortunately.

Definitely a problem. And they would be rated first.

He would lose 9.2 or 11.2, depending on whether the November or December ratings applied, I think.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 08-01-2020 11:37pm

zeitnot wrote: »

Definitely a problem. And they would be rated first.

He would lose 9.2 or 11.2, depending on whether the November or December ratings applied, I think.

Killian has played and won round 6 of the league which was enough to get over 2300.

cdeb · 08-01-2020 11:43pm

That'll do it so.

Although I see there's one game still adjourned from round 5; if that's still outstanding, the two rounds may be rated after the IM norm tournament?

Either way, well done!

Joedryan · 09-01-2020 5:27pm

Wasnt Killian very close to the IM norm?

Either way well done.

zeitnot · 09-01-2020 5:50pm

How were the titles of Irish 50+ and Irish 65+ champions awarded?

For 50+, John Delaney and Jonathan O'Connor tied on 5.5 (with Robin Moss, who was ineligible for the title).

For 65+, Tim Harding, Eamon Keogh, Pete Morriss and Jim Murray tied on 5.

Shared titles? Rapid playoffs? Median Buchholz etc.?

cdeb · 09-01-2020 7:54pm

Title/cash shared, but tie break for the trophy I think it was.

Pete Morriss · 10-01-2020 5:59pm

It seems that there is no trophy for the over-65s, but I was told that I had won the title on tie-break. Jonathan was awarded the over-50s trophy and title, also on tie-break.

ishidaogo · 13-01-2020 12:06am

Pete Morriss wrote: »

It seems that there is no trophy for the over-65s, but I was told that I had won the title on tie-break. Jonathan was awarded the over-50s trophy and title, also on tie-break.

I have the old DeLoughry trophy and can present it as the o 65 trophy if no one objects.

cdeb · 13-01-2020 8:39am

Is there not the JJ Walsh Cup for the over 65s? Who has that if it wasn't there last week?

jj-walsh-cup.jpg?w=370&h=

RooksPawn · 13-01-2020 11:04am

I thought the perpetual trophy for the overall winner was presented by Ray Byrne two years ago. Is that the one in your picture?
There was a cup (to keep) for the 65+ winner in 2018 when ICU still had their deal with Awards and Gifts, and last year Tony Doyle was presented with a small cup (to keep).

cdeb · 13-01-2020 12:41pm

The Ray Byrne Cup is for the Over 50s.

(Don't know how to resize the image below unfortunately)

sodacat11 · 13-01-2020 11:49pm

The trophy for the Leinster Senior is missing too. It should be a simple enough matter to ask the previous winners where it went. I am pretty sure that it is one of two people who has it so it shouldn't be too hard for the ICU to track it down.
I could be wrong but I think that the Leinster Intermediate trophy might be missing too.

RooksPawn · 14-01-2020 12:04pm

The Drogheda Chess Club (who used to run the old 60+ veterans tournament) should maybe be asked about the J. J. Walsh Cup.
It certainly was not in evidence at any of the three Seniors championships so far run by ICU.

cdeb · 14-01-2020 1:15pm

Drogheda used a different trophy for the veterans' event though. It's the one below. I thought the Ray Byrne and JJ Walsh Cups were both acquired when the event switched to the New Year. That said, while the Ray Byrne photo is in a hotel room, the JJ Walsh photo isn't, and I'm not sure where it was when I took that.

sodacat11 · 14-01-2020 6:12pm

That looks like a turd on a piece of wood.

Retd.LoyolaCpt · 14-01-2020 8:11pm

The JJ Walsh Cup is still used for a different unrelated event; it pre-existed the 50+/65+ events.

I’ll talk to Drogheda about the Veterans Cup - when we created the 50+/65+, the understanding was that the Veterans would continue and that we wouldn’t be standing in its way and would look to promote it as always; but it hasn’t been run since unfortunately. I had hoped it would expand but Andrew preferred it to be smaller and more manageable; which was fine as it then offered something different to 50+/65+ in a weekend format.

The Leinster titles would be up to LCU to track down - the last photo I’ve seen of the senior title was it being presented to Gavin Wall in roughly 2007 by Phil Hogarty. I’d imagine Gavin didn’t cart it home so probably stayed with the LCU.

RooksPawn · 14-01-2020 9:22pm

I think the last time the Drogheda event was played was September 2017.
Eamon Keogh won; you could ask him whether he ever received the trophy.
Tim Harding won in 2016. The trophy cannot be seen in the presentation photo that was once on the Drogheda club website.
I gather that Tim was promised they would get it to him eventually but they never did.

Joedryan · 20-01-2020 10:50pm

so who won the over 65?

on the norm events the 2 rds a day has some issues, a couple of times I played people who had short draws before my game,

Not complaining because I signed up but its there for all to see

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 12:27am

Joedryan wrote: »

so who won the over 65?

on the norm events the 2 rds a day has some issues, a couple of times I played people who had short draws before my game,

Not complaining because I signed up but its there for all to see

Some people have to travel long distances to games. Others might not be feeling well or may not have slept well. Some may have worries outside chess or maybe health issues. Some may be using the wrong pen. etc etc. It is impossible to have a completely level playing field all the time.

Joedryan · 21-01-2020 1:14am

sodacat11 wrote: »

Some people have to travel long distances to games. Others might not be feeling well or may not have slept well. Some may have worries outside chess or maybe health issues. Some may be using the wrong pen. etc etc. It is impossible to have a completely level playing field all the time.

And some may be playing pre-arranged draws, but we carry on regardless.

sodacat11 · 21-01-2020 1:57am

Joedryan wrote: »

And some may be playing pre-arranged draws, but we carry on regardless.

If a draw suits both parties there is nothing that can prevent them from pre arranging a draw. Players can offer draws at any time, even before a game starts.
I played a morning game last year that was drawn in 130 moves so I got no break or lunch before the next round started. I was playing a lower rated player so I offered him a quick draw which he refused. This annoyed me enough to get the adrenaline going again so I thrashed the ungrateful oaf. Very satisfying☺

Irish Over 50s & over 65s Championships

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