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Third Irish forestry fund.

  • 20-05-2019 5:31pm
    #1
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭


    The above was supposed to take 30 years to mature, just got a letter saying they have sold it off without consulting any of the 3 thousand or so share holder's.
    They cited everything from brexit to China to the weather.
    Also if this thread not suitable for here let me know.


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Comments

  • #2
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So what return are you getting on your investment?


  • #3
    iriship
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭iriship


    antietam1 wrote: »
    The above was supposed to take 30 years to mature, just got a letter saying they have sold it off without consulting any of the 3 thousand or so share holder's.
    They cited everything from brexit to China to the weather.
    Also if this thread not suitable for here let me know.

    I got letter today about the fourth Irish forestry fund. is in windup. it was not to finish till 2031=2032

    I think we have no say in this, but I do not feel good about this as most return would have being in the next 10 years . can not say this till we get check in post in July this year 2019

    please let me know if your found out any info on rights in this. even just PM me if you can


  • #4
    sandman30
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭sandman30


    Try finding out who they sold the properties to. If it's a related party or wasn't marketed on the open market, I would be seriously concerned


  • #5
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    So what return are you getting on your investment?

    No idea, will no know more in July.


  • #6
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    sandman30 wrote: »
    Try finding out who they sold the properties to. If it's a related party or wasn't marketed on the open market, I would be seriously concerned
    When I looked at these funds years back, they were full of links to related parties. The funds contracted maintenance to a separate company owned by the fund promoters, which didn't seem like a great idea to me.


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  • #7
    $kilkenny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 718 ✭✭✭$kilkenny


    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/forestry-investors-in-line-for-sale-windfall-38124848.html

    I have a feeling your question and the above link are related.


  • #8
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    $kilkenny wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/forestry-investors-in-line-for-sale-windfall-38124848.html

    I have a feeling your question and the above link are related.

    Thanks for that, I had no idea 70% of our timber typically goes to England.


  • #9
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    So far I've got notification for shares in 4 plans which have been sold with July cheque dates, hopefully the indo's description of substantial returns is accurate :)


  • #10
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    A few lines in the Sunday times to say it's Axa investment what has bought my tree.


  • #11
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Just read that, I had assumed it was a standard clearance to the saw mill job. The tone of the three articles I've read is very bullish though talk of a "summer bonanza" may be over-egging things a bit.


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  • #12
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    I worked for a company that sold woodworking machinery and at the time there seemed to be a lot of grants available to process raw timber, doesn't seemed to have worked.
    We export most of it.


  • #13
    Boardnashea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 864 ✭✭✭Boardnashea


    $kilkenny wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/forestry-investors-in-line-for-sale-windfall-38124848.html
    This paper looks more like a company press release than a piece of journalism.


  • #14
    iriship
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭iriship


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Just read that, I had assumed it was a standard clearance to the saw mill job. The tone of the three articles I've read is very bullish though talk of a "summer bonanza" may be over-egging things a bit.

    My maths on this relates to what we were promised.
    €500 per share 12.5 percent = €17500 after 30years
    At this stage that's app 6000 can you see us getting that? Per share not me


  • #15
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    iriship wrote: »
    My maths on this relates to what we were promised.
    €500 per share 12.5 percent = €17500 after 30years
    At this stage that's app 6000 can you see us getting that? Per share not me

    We are 23 years into it, how many for you may I ask?
    My wife turned turned down 6k years ago for 4 shares.


  • #16
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    iriship wrote: »
    My maths on this relates to what we were promised.
    €500 per share 12.5 percent = €17500 after 30years
    At this stage that's app 6000 can you see us getting that? Per share not me

    Using an online calculator I got £4,810 after 19 years (which is mine) 20 years is £5,513 obviously you need to add the 500 of the invested sum. So yep that's right.
    antietam1 wrote: »
    We are 23 years into it, how many for you may I ask?
    My wife turned turned down 6k years ago for 4 shares.

    23 years is £8,232 interest per share.

    I doubt we'll be seeing that kind of return.

    I just did a quick calculation for all my shares to the nearest last full year period. 22k return in theory, if it's half that I'll be shocked :D


  • #17
    paris24
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭paris24


    Same boat. Have one share IE£500 / €750 and th ROI projections over 30 term was IE£28,727 / €36,475.

    I have zero knowledge on how these things work, but does the letter and subsequent articles in the papers reek of PR spin, delivering bad news. What should we realistically expect now? Also, are they allowed to just sell up ~9 years ahead of the maturity of term? Was meant to be 1998 - 2028.


  • #18
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    paris24 wrote: »
    Same boat. Have one share IE£500 / €750 and th ROI projections over 30 term was IE£28,727 / €36,475.

    I have zero knowledge on how these things work, but does the letter and subsequent articles in the papers reek of PR spin, delivering bad news. What should we realistically expect now? Also, are they allowed to just sell up ~9 years ahead of the maturity of term? Was meant to be 1998 - 2028.
    Does indeed reek of pr spin, summer bonanza etc.
    My pension crowd thought I should have been delighted to almost get all my money back.


  • #19
    paris24
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭paris24


    God that's depressing.... how can they get away with making such huge promises only to sell up 10 years early and pay out SFA... seems so unfair! :( I had that money earmarked for kids college fund in 2028


  • #20
    hgfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭hgfj


    I have 2 shares in the fifth fund. I also had shares in one of the ten year funds. The ten year fund wasn't sold for thirteen years. Reason being the returns were so bad they had to keep it running for another 3 years. Then within that 3 year period the government reneged on the tax free status of the funds. I cant recall the return on the fund but it wasn't much. These 30 year funds were supposed to be tax free as well. I'm expecting just a small profit.


  • #21
    paris24
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭paris24


    hgfj wrote: »
    I have 2 shares in the fifth fund. I also had shares in one of the ten year funds. The ten year fund wasn't sold for thirteen years. Reason being the returns were so bad they had to keep it running for another 3 years. Then within that 3 year period the government reneged on the tax free status of the funds. I cant recall the return on the fund but it wasn't much. These 30 year funds were supposed to be tax free as well. I'm expecting just a small profit.

    Are they not tax exempt? I thought they were?


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  • #22
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    They are, not sure why hgfi thinks otherwise.


  • #23
    paris24
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭paris24


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Using an online calculator I got £4,810 after 19 years (which is mine) 20 years is £5,513 obviously you need to add the 500 of the invested sum. So yep that's right.



    23 years is £8,232 interest per share.

    I doubt we'll be seeing that kind of return.

    I just did a quick calculation for all my shares to the nearest last full year period. 22k return in theory, if it's half that I'll be shocked :D

    What sort of return should I realistically expect on my €750 share then after 21 years (9 years shy full term) :(


  • #24
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    £10,214.


  • #25
    paris24
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭paris24


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    £10,214.

    How do you work out your figures?


  • #26
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    A calculator - capital sum x 12.5% compound interest x years.


  • #27
    hgfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭hgfj


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    They are, not sure why hgfi thinks otherwise.


    Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to recall getting a letter some years back with regard to the tax exemption status for these funds. The ten year fund I was in didn't finish after ten years. It went on for another three years i think. Reason being markets were so bad at the ten year point the funds weren't worth selling. A year or two into the extension there was a letter saying the revenue changed the status of these funds so they were now taxable. Unless I'm befuddled and confused. I just went to the forestry sites faq and they seem to be still tax free. I also just rang the Irish forestry funds number and the woman said they were still tax exempt. She said it was possible they were changed to taxable and then changed back again but that was very unlikely. So hopefully I am wrong and they are still tax exempt.


  • #28
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I think you have your answer! :)


  • #29
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    Well it is July.


  • #30
    lcwill
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭lcwill


    antietam1 wrote: »
    Well it is July.

    I think we have to wait until late July for our massive cheques.....


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  • #31
    AhrSkidar
    Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭AhrSkidar


    Another press release that adds no real information...
    https://www.veon.ie/veon-concludes-largest-private-sale-of-forestry-in-irish-history/


  • #32
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    They said late July, so patience.


  • #33
    antietam1
    Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    I was joking.


  • #34
    Sonny noggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    Waiting for the end of July with bated breath. :)

    Have 2 shares in the Sixth Forestry Fund.


  • #35
    Robodoc
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Robodoc


    Have shares in 2nd and 5th funds, sincerely doubt that a return of 12.5% will happen, we’ll be doing well if we get 7.5%


  • #36
    liamoreilly
    Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭liamoreilly


    ...Off topic a bit as not related to any other projects... How would go about starting to invest in this, is there an official sight to sign up and do it, or do you have to source your own land first and then plant/apply for Grant's etc... myself and brother are looking at it as a long term investment, and a plus that it is a Green investment...
    ...Any information is appreciated!!!...


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  • #37
    hgfj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭hgfj


    Robodoc wrote: »
    Have shares in 2nd and 5th funds, sincerely doubt that a return of 12.5% will happen, we’ll be doing well if we get 7.5%




    Probably be lucky to get a return of 7.5% overall never mind 7.5% compounded!

    One thing I noticed with all these Forestry plans and funds was that every time they introduced a new one the projected return was always less than the previous ones. I bet if you look back at the prospectus for the 2nd and 5th you'll see a significant difference in projected compound return.


  • #38
    lcwill
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭lcwill


    I'm guessing somewhere around 4%: enough to double the investment which a journalist will take as justification for a nice headline and claims of a "summer bonanza", even if its nothing like the originally promised returns.


  • #39
    dan1981
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭dan1981


    Sonny noggs wrote: »
    Waiting for the end of July with bated breath. :)

    Have 2 shares in the Sixth Forestry Fund.

    You'll be waiting a bit longer. I was told earlier this week cheques won't issue now until mid-August at the earliest.


  • #40
    Robodoc
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Robodoc


    Getting more and more curious about this. Have not received notification of any delay in payment as yet. If we really are shareholders, can the company be sold out without consulting with shareholders? Should we not be advised what payouts we will receive in advance of the actual payout, at the moment it seems to be a case of, we have sold the company and you’ll see what you get when the cheque lands on the floor, and at that stage it’s absolutely a fait accompli. Hmmmmmm.
    Have since browsed lots of posts relating to IFF, we have no voting rights, previous funds appear to have returned 1.5% annually, i await that cheque with interest, just don’t think i’ll be painting the town red.


  • #41
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Robodoc wrote: »
    If we really are shareholders, can the company be sold out without consulting with shareholders?
    Were you not clear on the legal status of what you were buying into at the outset?


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  • #42
    Robodoc
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Robodoc


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Were you not clear on the legal status of what you were buying into at the outset?

    No actually, was just an opportunistic investment at the time promising good returns.


  • #43
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Robodoc wrote: »
    No actually, was just an opportunistic investment at the time promising good returns.

    There's a lesson there for any investor


  • #44
    fergus1001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    liamoreilly wrote:
    ...Off topic a bit as not related to any other projects... How would go about starting to invest in this, is there an official sight to sign up and do it, or do you have to source your own land first and then plant/apply for Grant's etc... myself and brother are looking at it as a long term investment, and a plus that it is a Green investment... ...Any information is appreciated!!!...


    investing in your own land and managing it properly will yield the most return for you


  • #45
    lcwill
    Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭lcwill


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    There's a lesson there for any investor

    The guys who set up these funds were only ever in it to milk what they could out of the investors.

    I presume everyone is aware they got the contract to keep managing the land for the new owners....very convenient


  • #46
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    lcwill wrote: »
    The guys who set up these funds were only ever in it to milk what they could out of the investors.

    I presume everyone is aware they got the contract to keep managing the land for the new owners....very convenient
    You may be right, but my point was about the importance of investors knowing up front the legal structure of what they're investing in, and what options that would give them in the future.


    It's madness to have invested a four figure sum and not know whether it's a fund or a company shareholding or what.


  • #47
    ForFsSake
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭ForFsSake


    dan1981 wrote: »
    You'll be waiting a bit longer. I was told earlier this week cheques won't issue now until mid-August at the earliest.

    Dan - who told you this?


  • #48
    dan1981
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭dan1981


    ForFsSake wrote: »
    Dan - who told you this?

    Person in Veon.


  • #49
    ForFsSake
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭ForFsSake


    dan1981 wrote: »
    Person in Veon.

    Thanks - I called them on Wednesday and they said "towards the end of July". Granted I likely got a receptionist who would just say what she was told to say - do you thing your person is more likely to know more?


  • #50
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Does it really matter? I mean was anyone even expecting the total asset sale in 2019?


  • #51
    ForFsSake
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭ForFsSake


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Does it really matter? I mean was anyone even expecting the total asset sale in 2019?

    It does a bit as they mailed us in May saying July and told me the same on the phone this week so July is/was my expectation.

    If its August that's OK too (for me anyway, maybe not for everyone) but it just raises one more doubt in the mind about this company - which like many people I have a few.

    Anyway - will just wait and see what happens ....... no biggie .......


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