Who s behind the Gardai road checks?

Sycamore Tree · 07-01-2019 11:23pm

bunderoon wrote: »

Driving daily between Knock and Tuam for nearly 9 years and hardly ever see a Garda checkpoint. I would see the odd Garda car pull into the 24 hour that was just past the Claremorris junction, but that was about it.

Since Harris has come in, I, like a lot in Mayo, have seen a huge difference. Many checkpoints and Garda cars with speed guns etc.

Begs the question - what were these same Gardai doing for the years when Callinan and O'Sullivan were in charge??

I reckon its down to the fact that for years they were lying and falsifying the records but now that they cant, the Gardai have to go out and actually catch people committing the road traffic offences as it will be checked.

Yep and can you imagine the overtime payments received when faking 2,000,000 alcohol breath tests!

Actually I wonder how much it cost the taxpayer to waste 2,000,000 alcohol breath tests...

Losty Dublin · 08-01-2019 1:48am

Funny when people mention Mayo here and how these checks aren't needed or time wasting or revenue spinners or whatever, well here goes....

A motorbike was caught in Westport over Christmas and it was doing almost 200KM. That's double the speed limit. The section of road was the one coming into the town on the N5. Six garages on the section, a load of houses and boreens and it's up a heck of a hill so no, it's no place for speeding or taking chances.

A week ago on the same stretch of road, my BIL was waiting to take a right turn into their boreen on the very same stretch of road. A mini bus was behind him as he waited to turn. As he began the turn a motorbike came around from behind the bus and wham, into the side of the car. Yer man ended up underneath the car; somehow or other he wasn't crushed or run over and got up to walk away.

And let it be said; it's not the only time that we've seen stuff like that on that same stretch of road. If it was Mr. 200KM that took that risk on the same turn there'd have been a funeral at the weekend, no bones about it. I've been unlucky enough to lose a relative to a RTA; so too have a few of my friends. I don't like speed traps or check points any more than any us but if you hear of repeated gobdawry and recklessness on the roads like the bikers I mentioned then more checks are needed, a lot more.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 9:10am

bunderoon wrote: »

Driving daily between Knock and Tuam for nearly 9 years and hardly ever see a Garda checkpoint. I would see the odd Garda car pull into the 24 hour that was just past the Claremorris junction, but that was about it.

Since Harris has come in, I, like a lot in Mayo, have seen a huge difference. Many checkpoints and Garda cars with speed guns etc.

Begs the question - what were these same Gardai doing for the years when Callinan and O'Sullivan were in charge??

It's just spin. Callinan tried it too. High visibility policing. It's not sustainable because the administrative work doesn't get done and piles up. Then the court appearances that result from the checkpoints all come due and there's nobody left for regular work.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 9:40am

Jaxen Freezing Italic wrote: »

there was a chap plowed out of it and killed by a drunk driver up my way a few years ago, the same people who complained about the lack of garda intervention with drink driving at the time that happened are the ones who complain now when they hear of check points and proactive policing.

if you`re not doing anything wrong then you`ve nothing to worry about. They don`t set them up to catch ordinary people out, they set them up to catch the f*cking low lives who think drinking and driving is ok

Most checkpoints are during the day. You never see them around at closing time.

seamus · 08-01-2019 9:44am

Discodog wrote: »

Most checkpoints are during the day. You never see them around at closing time.

Most checkpoints I've encountered have been at night.

*shrug*, YMMV, I supposed.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 10:04am

seamus wrote: »

Most checkpoints I've encountered have been at night.

*shrug*, YMMV, I supposed.

Anyone who follows the Checkpoints Facebook & Twitter groups will know that many are during the day. There are few after 10 pm.

seamus · 08-01-2019 10:39am

That's not exactly scientific though.

One would expect that the vast majority of contributors to said groups are out and about during the day more than at night. Most are probably professional drivers and tradespeople, whose hours mostly cover 6am to 9pm.

Even if checkpoints were evenly distributed between day and night, I would expect the majority of checkpoint reports to be during the day.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 12:01pm

seamus wrote: »

That's not exactly scientific though.

One would expect that the vast majority of contributors to said groups are out and about during the day more than at night. Most are probably professional drivers and tradespeople, whose hours mostly cover 6am to 9pm.

Even if checkpoints were evenly distributed between day and night, I would expect the majority of checkpoint reports to be during the day.

Three right now all within Galway City. Is 11am prime time for drunk drivers?

jmayo · 08-01-2019 1:38pm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont think my locality (rural Mayo) is any different but for whatever reason in the last few months the amount of Garda checkpoints etc has been ramped up to an incredible degree, they are everywhere at all hours, breathalyzers, tax checks, speeding etc. I mean it makes zero sense for a force that was always complaining and maybe rightly so about being under resourced. obv a decison has been taken at a high level and im wondering by whom and for what reason?

Makes a refreshing change from ambushing Mayo fans on the Mullingar bypass on the Sunday morning of a big match in Croker.

RobbieMD wrote: »

442 Gardai who cancelled penalty point notices had to have been at least of Inspector rank or above. No member of Garda rank could cancel a notice.

So in other words most of the upper ranks are corrupt.

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

What about personal responsibility? If we didn't have such a blatant disregard for motoring laws, Gardai would have more resources for other crimes.

Bottom line is that if you comply with the law, you'll be waved through to go about your business. I'd love to meet a checkpoint at least once every time I'm on the road

Ah pure and utter boll**.
Catching people for motoring offenses is pure and simple about economics and is pretty straight forward.
The vast vast majority of those caught never resist and hold their hands up.

I once asked a Garda why they never had the speed checks at night or why they were not out and about at night trying to catch people drink driving, etc and he answered pure and simple down to numbers and cost.

opinionated3 wrote: »

The first thing you listed is "having a presence". That's hilarious seeing as the only time we see them around here is for a tax and insurance checkpoint. Take for example the infamous traveller family riot in the Oakwood hotel in Shannon lately. Everyone saw the video footage. By co Clare standards it was vicious and totally uncalled for. It's an event that was run trouble free for nearly twelve years and yet a select group of well known traveler families decided to destroy the whole spectacle. At the same time this was going on the local Gardai were out on a revenue checkpoint yet again. Rumor has it that when the phone calls came in to Shannon Gardai, they allegedly delayed their response, as it was one traveller family versus another. So much for keeping the peace. If that's what's been taught in templemore then templemore is a joke and needs to be completely scrapped or overhauled.

I remember number of years ago, 2007 I believe, a pub in Kilkelly was set upon by members of our newest ethnic group because they were refused entry.
The owners and some other people had to barricade themselves inside while the windows were smashed in.
From recollection it took nearly half an hour for the Garda station in Swinford to send any car.

This station is a district HQ, not just any old station.
And according to Google is just over 11k and should take around 12 minutes.

And that wasn't the only time they were not great at responding.
Another incident happened in another pub near Swinford where three Garda did shag all about a group acting out in a pub even though it was nearly closing time on a Sunday night.
7 of them had to come back at 1am by which time the troublemakers had gone.
How convenient.:rolleyes:

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 1:43pm

jmayo wrote: »

So in other words most of the upper ranks are corrupt.

That's a bit of a leap. That assumes every fine cancelled was cancelled without proper cause which is definitely not the case.

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 1:53pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's a bit of a leap. That assumes every fine cancelled was cancelled without proper cause which is definitely not the case.

We already established that 442 was around 80% of Gardai of Inspector rank or above in the 4 year period investigated. Most means > 50%.

The majority of FCN cancellations did not provide a reason so where is your evidence that any were cancelled for "proper cause"?

Do you Garda apologists receive money to muddy the waters?

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:00pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

We already established that 442 was around 80% of Gardai of Inspector rank or above in the 4 year period investigated. Most means > 50%.

The majority of FCN cancellations did not provide a reason so where is your evidence that any were cancelled for "proper cause"?

Every report would seem to support it. An example from the GSOC report.

1,185 notices were cancelled under the provision of the Juvenile Diversion Programme, of which one third were for speeding.

There's 1,185 cancelled correctly straight off the bat.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 2:11pm

Another Galway City checkpoint that's 5 today since 10am. The householder needing urgent assistance will be told there's no car available.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:15pm

Discodog wrote: »

Another Galway City checkpoint that's 5 today since 10am. The householder needing urgent assistance will be told there's no car available.

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

Discodog · 08-01-2019 2:37pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

There were two checkpoints today, at the same time, within Galway City. So that's two cars & four Guards.

It's so obvious that they are trying to provide stats for the new commissioner.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 2:44pm

Discodog wrote: »

There were two checkpoints today, at the same time, within Galway City. So that's two cars & four Guards.

It's so obvious that they are trying to provide stats for the new commissioner.

Doesn't really change the point you are replying to.

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 2:46pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Every report would seem to support it. An example from the GSOC report.

There's 1,185 cancelled correctly straight off the bat.

Nonsense. Just a smokescreen.

Overall, penalty points were cancelled 76,600 times between 2009 and 2012 and 442 Garda members had the power to terminate the points.

Without an auditable trail of the rationale behind these decisions, there is no way to evaluate whether or not these cancellations were appropriate and, most importantly, within FCPS guidelines. Illustrating even less accountability, the most frequently occurring reason for authorising a cancellation was simply “Cancelled”, accounting for 72% of all cancellations.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason. That's 55,000.

Where is your "most" now?

Some reason were given...

A Garda member had points cancelled “on compassionate grounds associated with animal welfare”. It was later found he was bringing his sick dog to the vet.
One driver travelling at between 221km and 240km per hour had his speeding points terminated.

A journalist driving at 173km in a 120km zone was cautioned.

When the same journalist was detected driving at 152km per hour in a 120km zone the points were cancelled on the grounds they had become distracted by news of a relative’s medical emergency.

Wife of a senior Garda had points cancelled on grounds she was using dictaphone rather than talking into a phone.

When Garda members had speeding points cancelled, no checks were carried out to verify they were on duty and speeding because of a work-related task.
Members of national units, including those targeting organised crime, were cancelling points even though road traffic enforcement formed no part of their duties.

Some Garda members cancelled points so quickly after an offence the points were terminated before the offenders’ received the official notices in the mail.
In those cases, one garda cancelled notices 48 times in three months. Another made 29 cancellations in two months.

The Pulse log-ins of retired senior garda officers were still active and being used by still serving members to cancel points. In some cases the log-ins were for officers retired more than a decade.

Cancellation of FCNs issued to garda members, notably for speeding offences, were undertaken without any checks to establish that the garda member was on duty at the time and that exceeding the speed limit was necessary.

GSOC concluded that “one of the most concerning elements” of its findings was the “confirmation that a significant number of senior gardaí throughout the country frequently breached the garda policy for cancellations”.

Kimbot · 08-01-2019 2:46pm

Discodog wrote: »

Three right now all within Galway City. Is 11am prime time for drunk drivers?

They arent just out checking for drink drivers though, they are looking for Tax/Insurance/NCT aswell. And naturally alot of people would use their cars during the day to get about so there is a far bigger chance of catching them.

Gravelly · 08-01-2019 2:53pm

Same story in my area - there is now a checkpoint outside the local service station every single Saturday morning, and outside the local mart each morning there's a mart on.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:04pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense. Just a smokescreen.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason. That's 55,000.

Where is your "most" now?

Some reason were given...

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

jmayo · 08-01-2019 3:13pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Checkpoints are given low priority over urgent calls.

Is it time for a name change.
We have no captains in the AGS, perhaps Inspector Obvious

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

And every single time you and your like hone in on the All as a way of massaging the story.
You watch for that little slip and it is somehow seen as a win for you that you can prove that not every single one fits the negative or that it somehow absolves the huge disproportion quantity that do in fact fit the negative.

You are doing it here, and it is always done in threads about terrorists, threads about certain ethnic groups and crime/anti-social behaviour, etc.

Fair enough all of anything is never true, but by christ that doesn't lessen fact that a huge chunk are true.

yourdeadwright · 08-01-2019 3:23pm

They ramp it up coming up to Christmas and as January goes on it'll ide off again ,
Makes sense as more people are out drinking ,and in January it dies off ,

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:24pm

jmayo wrote: »

Is it time for a name change.
We have no captains in the AGS, perhaps Inspector Obvious

And every single time you and your like hone in on the All as a way of massaging the story.
You watch for that little slip and it is somehow seen as a win for you that you can prove that not every single one fits the negative or that it somehow absolves the huge disproportion quantity that do in fact fit the negative.

You are doing it here, and it is always done in threads about terrorists, threads about certain ethnic groups and crime/anti-social behaviour, etc.

Fair enough all of anything is never true, but by christ that doesn't lessen fact that a huge chunk are true.

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

They ramp it up coming up to Christmas and as January goes on it'll ide off again ,
Makes sense as more people are out drinking ,and in January it dies off ,

It's more likely that they do it to use up the remainder of the overtime budget so that it won't be reduced the following year. A common problem across the public sector.

Sycamore Tree · 08-01-2019 3:27pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You asked for proof that some were valid. I gave it to you. There are plenty more in the GSOC report such as seatbelt fine cancellations due to medical certs. You're also discounting all cases where fines where cancelled and reissued with new details (as in when the registered owner nominate a driver for their car)

Where are you getting "most" from? It was claimed all cancellations were corrupt. I've just shown this to be untrue. Rather than accept this you've doubled down and tried to move the goal posts at the same time.

Jmayo said in relation to the 442 that cancelled points in 4 years of the GSOC report (Inspector rank or above);

So in other words most of the upper ranks are corrupt.

You then said;

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's a bit of a leap. That assumes every fine cancelled was cancelled without proper cause which is definitely not the case.

442 is 80+% of senior Gardaí (rank Inspector or above) during the 4 year period.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason whatsoever and the other reasons were spurious.

Hence Jmayo is correct. Most...

yourdeadwright · 08-01-2019 3:30pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

It's more likely that they do it to use up the remainder of the overtime budget so that it won't be reduced the following year. A common problem across the public sector.

Ye that certainly a reason for the over time budgets ,

I haven't seen one yet and to be honest I'm delighted ,

I'm out a tax a week and it won't be getting paid until next week because off some unforeseen dents in the wallet over Christmas due to a washing machine and the missus car packing up out of the blue ,

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 3:47pm

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Jmayo said in relation to the 442 that cancelled points in 4 years of the GSOC report (Inspector rank or above);

You then said;

442 is 80+% of senior Gardaí (rank Inspector or above) during the 4 year period.

72% of all cancellations gave no valid reason whatsoever and the other reasons were spurious.

Hence Jmayo is correct. Most...

First of all, Sycamore, you claimed I said "most". I didn't. Jmayo did. You asked for evidence that "any" of them were not corrupt. The inference there was that all where corrupt is it not?

Secondly, a reason not being stated for the cancellation is not evidence of corruption. This matter was investigated by PAC, GSOC, Internal Affairs, Garda Inspectorate and others. Do any of them support the claim that the majority of cancellations were corrupt?

jmayo · 08-01-2019 4:03pm

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Your assumption of corruption is based on the absence of evidence to the contrary. You think because someone didn't fill in the reason on the cancellation it was automatically corrupt. There is simply no evidence of this. I've given many reasons for legitimate cancellations of tickets but the way you and sycamore go on you'd swear every cancellation was a mte of the Commissioner.

Did anyone say every single cancellation was corrupt ?

But we do know of specific instances where people had unbelievable speeding offenses wiped.

Are you claiming that those type of ones are the aberration and all the other cancellations, with no reason given, are perfectly valid.
This would be all from the same organisation that falsified millions of breath tests, right ?
The same organisation that tried to destroy whistleblowers?

Now you may be gullible, although I think you are far from it and that is not what you are at here, but the rest of us certainly aren't.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, to most of us it is a feckin duck and not as you claim a great big red heron.

Captain Obvious · 08-01-2019 4:10pm

jmayo wrote: »

Did anyone say every single cancellation was corrupt ?

But we do know of specific instances where people had unbelievable speeding offenses wiped.

Are you claiming that those type of ones are the aberration and all the other cancellations, with no reason given, are perfectly valid.
This would be all from the same organisation that falsified millions of breath tests, right ?
The same organisation that tried to destroy whistleblowers?

Now you may be gullible, although I think you are far from it and that is not what you are at here, but the rest of us certainly aren't.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, to most of us it is a feckin duck and not as you claim a great big red heron.

As I said, Sycamore's demand for evidence of "any" that were not corrupt would infer that all were corrupt in the absence of evidence. I think this is a reasonable understanding of his comment.

I've no doubt that there were cancellations that were not on the level. Unfortunately, none of the reports seem to have given any indication of what proportion this might be. I'd be fairly certain that most were legitimate on the basis of their being so many reasons to legitimately cancel tickets and the majority of cancelled tickets being done through the fixed charge processing office.

James Brown · 08-01-2019 4:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Like other posters here ii am wondering why you question this? The gards doing their job

Well we'll let the test results speak on that

tobdom · 08-01-2019 4:18pm

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons.... but wasn't it already quoted earlier in this thread from some news article that it was 442 Gardai that were authorised to cancel the points..... so it could have been a handful of inspectors that authorised the cancellations and not 442 high-ranking gardai

Who s behind the Gardai road checks?

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