BER Technical thread

sydthebeat · 07-04-2009 4:29pm

can you verify exactly what the construction is under the cladding...

if not, then you cannot work out the specific u value, and should default to the value for that age band... no?

Smcgie · 07-04-2009 5:45pm

+1 with SYD.. Don't attempt anything that will cone back to haunt you

awhyte · 07-04-2009 6:04pm

All I can see is the corrugated sheets and the timber panels inside the bedroom. I've been told there's insulation between the rafters by the auctioneer but thats no good to me. I'm guessing I'll have to use the default value for a pitched roof for that year and leave it at that. It's not a huge area, only 12msq.

topcatcbr · 07-04-2009 8:26pm

The default in this situation i believe would be far better than the actual calculated value (Assuming No added insulation).

No6 · 07-04-2009 11:16pm

I'd have to agree with topcat, sometimes the defaults will work better for you, if so use them!!

awhyte · 08-04-2009 8:31am

Thanks lads.

hogandrew · 08-04-2009 4:28pm

Hi i havent done alot of assesments yet but one i done the other day was on an apartment which had an electric immersion as its only form of hot water heating.

I assumed this was supplementary immersion hot water in the summer?

And electricicty as primary hot water source
and no secondary.

Is this not yes for supplementary immersion as it doesnt suppliment anything?

sydthebeat · 08-04-2009 4:29pm

hogandrew wrote: »

Hi i havent done alot of assesments yet but one i done the other day was on an apartment which had an electric immersion as its only form of hot water heating.

I assumed this was supplementary immersion hot water in the summer?

And electricicty as primary hot water source
and no secondary.

Is this not yes for supplementary immersion as it doesnt suppliment anything?

It is 'NO' for supplementary immersion as its not supplement to anything.

hogandrew · 08-04-2009 4:43pm

Thanks a million. A pity SEI weren't so straight forward with an answer. Here's what they replied

An immersion is to be included in the following cases:

Case A:
Where the main water heating system is incapable of providing hot water without space heating e.g. manual solid fuel room heater with back boiler.
• Under water heating tab “supplementary water heating in summer” set to yes
• Secondary water heating fuel type = electricity

Case B:
Where there is a heat pump with an immersion:
• Supplementary immersion used in summer set to “no”
• Secondary water heating fuel type set to none
• Efficiency of main water heater set to result of equation G1 in the DEAP manual, appendix G. This accounts for the immersion.
• Main water heater fuel type is electricity

sydthebeat · 08-04-2009 5:01pm

this is from the latest SEI technical bulletin:

(2) The main water heating system is an electric immersion in a cylinder. What do I do?

Where an immersion is the main water heater, then the hot water storage temperature factor from table 2 is
set to 0.6. When determining the temperature factor multiplier, the immersion will have a built in thermostat,
and the timer adjustment does not apply as this is not a boiler/heat pump. Therefore the temperature factor
multiplier is set to 1.
The main water heating efficiency is 100% and the main water heating fuel is electricity.
Do not specify supplementary water heating during summer in this scenario.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2009 1:02pm

just wondering of anyone has seen a set up like this for apartment heating.

space = electric storage heating, time clocked, not fan assisted

water = what appears to be two cylinders formed into one, the lower cylinder has a dual immersion heater, the upper cylinder seems to act as a thermal store... roughly 300 litres in total...

edir: this is for an apartment constructed in 2005, but its only getting an E2 rating.... i suppose it makes sense seeing as space and water is electric fuelled... but....

Chimpster · 20-04-2009 4:42pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

just wondering of anyone has seen a set up like this for apartment heating.

space = electric storage heating, time clocked, not fan assisted

water = what appears to be two cylinders formed into one, the lower cylinder has a dual immersion heater, the upper cylinder seems to act as a thermal store... roughly 300 litres in total...

edir: this is for an apartment constructed in 2005, but its only getting an E2 rating.... i suppose it makes sense seeing as space and water is electric fuelled... but....

Syd,

Thats a cold water storage tank over the hot water tank. You should have 150L for your hot water storage I think.

Cold storage is used for cisterns etc.

http://www.lycrisbyrne.com/combo.html

We are doing a block apartments build in the early 90's that have them at present so I had to do a bit of research a few weeks back.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2009 4:45pm

thanks chimpster, thats exactly it....

but theres hardly 150 litres in that lower tank???

I did notice that the lid of the top cylinder was removable, which was strange....

thats for that info... very useful!!!

Chimpster · 20-04-2009 4:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

thanks chimpster, thats exactly it....

but theres hardly 150 litres in that lower tank???

I did notice that the lid of the top cylinder was removable, which was strange....

thats for that info... very useful!!!

I have a pretty detailed drawing of the tank that I found in one of the apartments. It doesn't have any volume figures on it but both the cold water and the hot water tanks appear to be exatly the same size on it.

Actually I just pulled out the survey sheet that was on file and its 100 litres that we put into DEAP. I think we called Lycris Byrne at the time.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2009 5:09pm

excellent, thanks again chimpster...

SilverBER · 21-04-2009 9:04am

In combined tanks the cylinder capacity is generally 120L. The top cold water storage tank should have a lid on it as in attic tanks. In Gold Shield homes the storage tank should have a float switch that cuts out the pump when the tank is dry and there should be a minimum 50 mm FF insulation on the cylinder. The groups should be controlled by an E or Economy 7 timer switch. Storage heaters are always non fan assisted unless they are combination units with the fan heater supposedly controlled by a room stat. It depends on the builder / electrical contractor and the price they have in for the job - it is cheaper to put a standard slimline storage heater in. Hope this is of assistance.

sydthebeat · 21-04-2009 11:11am

SilverBER wrote: »

In combined tanks the cylinder capacity is generally 120L. The top cold water storage tank should have a lid on it as in attic tanks. In Gold Shield homes the storage tank should have a float switch that cuts out the pump when the tank is dry and there should be a minimum 50 mm FF insulation on the cylinder. The groups should be controlled by an E or Economy 7 timer switch. Storage heaters are always non fan assisted unless they are combination units with the fan heater supposedly controlled by a room stat. It depends on the builder / electrical contractor and the price they have in for the job - it is cheaper to put a standard slimline storage heater in. Hope this is of assistance.

it certainly is... thanks silver...

engrish? · 22-04-2009 5:33pm

Glass bricks on the wall adjoining the communal area in an apartment.... Now the communal area is actually heated but it is massive and cold.

I'm confused! Do I just find the uvalue of the glass bricks and put them in as a separate wall? It was three separate (pain in the arse) windows that would obviously have a different u value.

Thanks

Count1 · 23-04-2009 2:49am

Hi from a serial lurker!

I am working on a BER Assessment on a pre 1900 terreced house with no central heating. However, there are 5 chimneys in the property. As background, there is one uninsulated cylinder for hot water with basic ON/OFF. Unsurprisingly, my preliminary figures are quite poor ( G ).

When I go to upload to NAS, I am getting an NYP but with quite a few "notices" which is causing me to second guess myself!

My initial plan was to enter open fireplace as primary heating ( efficiaency 30% etc) as it is in fact the ONLY heating for the house but the notices are indicating that this is not "the done thing" Here is what they say:

018: Has a chimney, but no value entered for Supplementary Space Heating Efficiency and/or fraction of heat from Supplementary Space Heating System ( Severity 1)

084: It is likely that you have selected an open fire without a back boiler as your primary heating system. Please ref to DEAP manual Appendix A ( Severity 1)

075 No central heating pump included in assessment ( Severity 2)

Apologies if the above is a little long winded but I thought it may help with any responses I get!

Am I looking at this the wrong way? Did i see something posted here or in DEAP before that if there is no central heating, it is assumed to be electric as primary? Finally, is supplementary electric immersion heating used in summer? Thanks in advance and apologies if this appears to be really basic stuff but the the notices have really given me second thoughts.

engrish? · 23-04-2009 10:54am

018: Has a chimney, but no value entered for Supplementary Space Heating Efficiency and/or fraction of heat from Supplementary Space Heating System ( Severity 1)

But there is no supplementary heating system - I would agree with you here.

084: It is likely that you have selected an open fire without a back boiler as your primary heating system. Please ref to DEAP manual Appendix A ( Severity 1)

075 No central heating pump included in assessment ( Severity 2)

There is none, I would agree with you.

Am I looking at this the wrong way? Did i see something posted here or in DEAP before that if there is no central heating, it is assumed to be electric as primary?

I dont remember ever seeing that.

Finally, is supplementary electric immersion heating used in summer?

I would have thought that this is a no, as it is not supplementary. It is the only form of water heating. Like electric heating in an apartment.

Count1 · 23-04-2009 11:06am

Engrish, thank you for your reply. They really had me questioning myself. Much appreciated.

paulclan · 29-04-2009 9:30am

Hi All,

I have a house which I wish to dispose of soon. It has storage and convector heating under I think the ESB warm Home scheme of 10 years ago.

Will it be possible to source clean electricity and avoid the DEAP penalty of a factor of 2.7 over other fuels such as oil (no gas in area except perhaps a Calor tank may suit if the building regs can be satisfied.)
thanks if the experts can advise!!:D

Chimpster · 29-04-2009 11:29am

paulclan wrote: »

Hi All,

I have a house which I wish to dispose of soon. It has storage and convector heating under I think the ESB warm Home scheme of 10 years ago.

Will it be possible to source clean electricity and avoid the DEAP penalty of a factor of 2.7 over other fuels such as oil (no gas in area except perhaps a Calor tank may suit if the building regs can be satisfied.)
thanks if the experts can advise!!:D

The 2.7 factor may have to be adjusted as we increase the amount of renewables used in our our fuel mix and as we improve the efficiency of our power stations but for now your stuck with 2.7.

The only other way to improve the rating on the energy requirements side is to introduce PV, Wind or Micro CHP to help power the unit. All this comes at a cost and is site specific so you need to decide if you'll get the extra money on the sale price to cover the cost of the improvements.

paulclan · 29-04-2009 12:25pm

Thanks Chimpster,

Looks like Gold Shield home will not fare out very well as regards the overall result of the BER!!

I'll have to look at getting a letter from the assessor to explain the gain in replacing the system with another more CO2 friendly system.

Seems a big penalty for homeowners due to inefficiencies in our power generation authority the ESB!

thanks for your help,

Chimpster · 29-04-2009 1:31pm

paulclan wrote: »

Thanks Chimpster,

Looks like Gold Shield home will not fare out very well as regards the overall result of the BER!!

I'll have to look at getting a letter from the assessor to explain the gain in replacing the system with another more CO2 friendly system.

Seems a big penalty for homeowners due to inefficiencies in our power generation authority the ESB!

thanks for your help,

Yeah, goldshield indeed!

Maybe in 2050 when our Energy Mix is 50% supplied by wind and biomass it will look like a great heating system. Or maybe it will be 50% Nuclear by then!

Anyway, your assessor should be able to provide you with a specific improvement report which should highlight the improved rating if the current electric system was replaced with a tightly controlled wet system.

SilverBER · 30-04-2009 9:43am

If you did a BER assessment without actually publishing the results and then factor in some inexpensive improvements to see where the dwelling would end up. Gold Shield homes were speced for enhanced insulation to walls and HW cylinder (50mm - 70mm). They also were supposed to have enhanced heating controls such as room stats for secondary heating (combi units) etc so it might be worth while doing a little invasive work on an unseen part of the external wals to see what the construction is regarding internal insulation etc. It would not be expensive to repair such invasion or maybe you can do what I sometimes do for clients by taking off a light switch or socket and calculating the U value of the wall.
It might be worth a spin - one never knows.

Count1 · 09-05-2009 1:29am

Hi back again with another technical query!

Doing a BER on a pre 1900 house. It was split into two units for a few years in the past but is now back to a single unit with one MPRN. So far so good. However thare are two gas boilers ( different brands) and two hot water cylinders (different lagging and sizes etc).

Heres what I think so far: One gas boiler heats the larger part of the house therefore, I intend to put IT down as primary heating source. The second gas boiler heats the smaller part of the house and I reckon, I should rightly be inputting this as secondary heating heating source. Feedback appreciated!

Where I think I am coming unstuck is the two hot water cylinders! How should these be entered? Should I use the one that provides for the larger part of the house? The only option is for entering one cylinder on DEAP. In a moment of absurdity I thought about adding up the volume of both cylinders and averaging lagging/insulation but this will greatly skewer figures in my opinion. Any thoughts will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

Count1 · 12-05-2009 1:45pm

No takers on my quaestion above?;) Not sure if that means it was silly question or a good question:eek: Have sent email to SEI and followed up with a phone call but no response yet.

buzymc · 12-05-2009 2:18pm

Count1,

"Where multiple hot water cylinders are present in a dwelling the average insulation thickness is determinedusing the weighted volume of each cylinder." I have taken this from the BER technical bulletin from April 09, if you download the pdf from the sei's website they give examples of calculations.

dibber · 17-05-2009 3:52pm

I'm assessing a dwelling that I am designing and I want to put in underfloor heating in 4 zones. In the DEAP software in "distribution systems losses & gains" you are asked to input the number of of central heating pumps. Will I need 4 pumps, just one or none?

Thanks.

SilverBER · 17-05-2009 4:03pm

Based on underfloor heating systems that I have done in the past it is usually just one pump with a manifold split into 4 zones using motorised valves controlled by room stats in each zone.

dibber · 17-05-2009 4:32pm

Thanks SilverBER. You might be able to answer this one too... I have solar thermal for water heating, do I list this again under "Renewable and energy saving technologies" in the "Fuel data" tab of "Energy Requirements"?

SilverBER · 18-05-2009 9:06am

This hasn't arisen for me yet but thats what we were told to do.

Count1 · 21-05-2009 2:08pm

buzymc wrote: »

Count1,

"Where multiple hot water cylinders are present in a dwelling the average insulation thickness is determinedusing the weighted volume of each cylinder." I have taken this from the BER technical bulletin from April 09, if you download the pdf from the sei's website they give examples of calculations.

Thanks buzymc. Much appreciated! SEI have also come back to me ( over a week later) with what seems to be the same response. Great to have the feedback form boards.ie!

dibber · 25-05-2009 2:28pm

Just checking a few things...

If a living area is open to the stairs and first floor landing do you include this area in zone 1 - I seem to remember you don't

If a house has closable trickle vents in the windows do you count these as passive vents?

If I have a h/w cylinder that is .5 radius and .65 high what is the likely water storage capacity? (The volume works out at about .5m3)

Cheers

sydthebeat · 25-05-2009 2:37pm

dibber wrote: »

Just checking a few things...

If a living area is open to the stairs and first floor landing do you include this area in zone 1 - I seem to remember you don't

If a house has closable trickle vents in the windows do you count these as passive vents?

If I have a h/w cylinder that is .5 radius and .65 high what is the likely water storage capacity? (The volume works out at about .5m3)

Cheers

dibber... i dont mean to be facetious but if you were to receive direct answers to your questions, i would fear that you wouldnt actually learn anything... read the DEAP manual if you are unsure of things...

but anyway

1. you dont
2. you dont
3. The water cylinder volume should be calculated by recording both the cylinder height and the diameter of the cylinder. The volume (which applies to hot water storage only) is then calculated as follows:
V = (pi x d2/4) x h / 1000
Where:
d = diameter of the cylinder (cm)
h = height of the cylinder (cm)
pi = 3.142
V = volume of the cylinder (litres)

dibber · 25-05-2009 3:50pm

Fair point Sydthebeat - I will go through the manual cover to cover. However is the volume not pi r squared x height? i.e. pi x (d/2) squared x h, not pi x d2/4 x h as you have suggested?

sydthebeat · 25-05-2009 3:59pm

i agree that pi r2 h is the formula for a cylinder

that formula is straight from an SEI technical bulletin....

im going to assume that formula takes the spherical top section into account as well as the cylinder....

joebre · 25-05-2009 4:45pm

As r=D/2,
then π r2 is the same as π D2/4.

"Sorry but it is hard to get superscript to work here"

I take the height of the cylinder as the tiop of the cylindrical bit and do not take account of the tapered bit on top.

Joe

sydthebeat · 25-05-2009 5:11pm

joebre wrote: »

As r=D/2,
then π r2 is the same as π D2/4.

"Sorry but it is hard to get superscript to work here"

I take the height of the cylinder as the tiop of the cylindrical bit and do not take account of the tapered bit on top.

Joe

thanks joe... maths not my strong point

joebre · 25-05-2009 5:22pm

No problem at all.
I think that they use Dsquared /4 as you have measured the diameter in your survey and it saves you having to divide it by 2 to get and radius and then square that !

Ron09 · 26-05-2009 1:55pm

Im doing a BER for existing apartment build in late 90's. It has a combination cylinder fully insulated (hot and cold water stored ) how do i work out how much of its just for the hot water?? will i just go with half??

zelemon · 29-01-2010 1:36pm

I applied for planning in Jan 2007 & was granted it, i started building in late 2008 & am close to signing off on the final a/c. I am yet to get my BER done. Can I ask what should have happened? when should i have got the preliminary done & when should i get the final test?

nodenrg · 29-01-2010 3:29pm

zelemon wrote: »

I applied for planning in Jan 2007 & was granted it, i started building in late 2008 & am close to signing off on the final a/c. I am yet to get my BER done. Can I ask what should have happened? when should i have got the preliminary done & when should i get the final test?

My understanding is you should have done your preliminary before starting on site - building control have a right to ask you to produce it - and you should get your full one before occupation.

drocklen1985 · 04-11-2013 11:16am

Good Morning,

Bloody great start to my day means i have been attacked very successfully by the 'avenger' virus, rendering my computer completely useless.

I am in dire need of IT help this morning.

How can I recover the XML files from the program files of the DEAP from the hard-drive i have rescued and attached to another computer.

I can locate any exported xml files, no luck with anything else. BTW I use the DEAP for design purposes so the need for me to export them is rare.

Are these files unobtainable now> I would appreciate any advice or help.

sydthebeat · 04-11-2013 11:37am

drocklen1985 wrote: »

Good Morning,

Bloody great start to my day means i have been attacked very successfully by the 'avenger' virus, rendering my computer completely useless.

I am in dire need of IT help this morning.

How can I recover the XML files from the program files of the DEAP from the hard-drive i have rescued and attached to another computer.

I can locate any exported xml files, no luck with anything else. BTW I use the DEAP for design purposes so the need for me to export them is rare.

Are these files unobtainable now> I would appreciate any advice or help.

as far as i understand it, deap doesn't create xml files until they are exported.
until then data is stored in the local SQL server database. Ive no idea where thats located though, maybe you could do a search.
even if you find it, ive no idea how you can access it.

Rabbo · 04-11-2013 12:07pm

My (limited) understanding is that the data is saved as an SDF file at the following location:
C:\Program Files\SEAI DEAP 3.2.1\DB

I'm running XP but newer versions of windows have a different location for the Program Files.

I have two SDF files at that location - DEAP_BLANK.sdf and DICT.sdf

I would try the following:
Download and install DEAP onto your new computer
Search for the above named files on your old hard drive. If you find them replace the SDF files on your new computer with them.
Run DEAP and hope for the best

Let us know how you get on

drocklen1985 · 04-11-2013 12:16pm

thanks very much indeed!

will give that a whirl and keep ya'll posted.

MOTM · 20-11-2013 4:44pm

Rabbo wrote: »

My (limited) understanding is that the data is saved as an SDF file at the following location:
C:\Program Files\SEAI DEAP 3.2.1\DB

I'm running XP but newer versions of windows have a different location for the Program Files.

I have two SDF files at that location - DEAP_BLANK.sdf and DICT.sdf

I would try the following:
Download and install DEAP onto your new computer
Search for the above named files on your old hard drive. If you find them replace the SDF files on your new computer with them.
Run DEAP and hope for the best

Let us know how you get on

The files under C:\Program Files\SEAI DEAP 3.2.1\DB are unchanged since the program is first installed so do not appear to be updated every time you create a DEAP record (i.e. its not that folder you're looking for).

Check with the BER helpdesk, but it should be the file DEAPv321.SDF file in the "C:\ProgramData\SEI DEAP 3" folder. Folders in ProgramData might be hidden though so you'd have to unhide those first.

BERmad · 22-05-2014 6:23pm

Hi does anyone know the best way to get old DEAP files onto a new computer.
I got a new PC but dont know how to get the data over. Does the above method work?

BER Technical thread

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