BER Technical thread

Engrish, thank you for your reply. They really had me questioning myself. Much appreciated.

paulclan

Hi All,

I have a house which I wish to dispose of soon. It has storage and convector heating under I think the ESB warm Home scheme of 10 years ago.

Will it be possible to source clean electricity and avoid the DEAP penalty of a factor of 2.7 over other fuels such as oil (no gas in area except perhaps a Calor tank may suit if the building regs can be satisfied.)
thanks if the experts can advise!!:D

Chimpster

paulclan wrote: »

Hi All,

I have a house which I wish to dispose of soon. It has storage and convector heating under I think the ESB warm Home scheme of 10 years ago.

Will it be possible to source clean electricity and avoid the DEAP penalty of a factor of 2.7 over other fuels such as oil (no gas in area except perhaps a Calor tank may suit if the building regs can be satisfied.)
thanks if the experts can advise!!:D

The 2.7 factor may have to be adjusted as we increase the amount of renewables used in our our fuel mix and as we improve the efficiency of our power stations but for now your stuck with 2.7.

The only other way to improve the rating on the energy requirements side is to introduce PV, Wind or Micro CHP to help power the unit. All this comes at a cost and is site specific so you need to decide if you'll get the extra money on the sale price to cover the cost of the improvements.

paulclan

Thanks Chimpster,

Looks like Gold Shield home will not fare out very well as regards the overall result of the BER!!

I'll have to look at getting a letter from the assessor to explain the gain in replacing the system with another more CO2 friendly system.

Seems a big penalty for homeowners due to inefficiencies in our power generation authority the ESB!

thanks for your help,

Chimpster

paulclan wrote: »

Thanks Chimpster,

Looks like Gold Shield home will not fare out very well as regards the overall result of the BER!!

I'll have to look at getting a letter from the assessor to explain the gain in replacing the system with another more CO2 friendly system.

Seems a big penalty for homeowners due to inefficiencies in our power generation authority the ESB!

thanks for your help,

Yeah, goldshield indeed!

Maybe in 2050 when our Energy Mix is 50% supplied by wind and biomass it will look like a great heating system. Or maybe it will be 50% Nuclear by then!

Anyway, your assessor should be able to provide you with a specific improvement report which should highlight the improved rating if the current electric system was replaced with a tightly controlled wet system.

SilverBER

If you did a BER assessment without actually publishing the results and then factor in some inexpensive improvements to see where the dwelling would end up. Gold Shield homes were speced for enhanced insulation to walls and HW cylinder (50mm - 70mm). They also were supposed to have enhanced heating controls such as room stats for secondary heating (combi units) etc so it might be worth while doing a little invasive work on an unseen part of the external wals to see what the construction is regarding internal insulation etc. It would not be expensive to repair such invasion or maybe you can do what I sometimes do for clients by taking off a light switch or socket and calculating the U value of the wall.
It might be worth a spin - one never knows.

Hi back again with another technical query!

Doing a BER on a pre 1900 house. It was split into two units for a few years in the past but is now back to a single unit with one MPRN. So far so good. However thare are two gas boilers ( different brands) and two hot water cylinders (different lagging and sizes etc).

Heres what I think so far: One gas boiler heats the larger part of the house therefore, I intend to put IT down as primary heating source. The second gas boiler heats the smaller part of the house and I reckon, I should rightly be inputting this as secondary heating heating source. Feedback appreciated!

Where I think I am coming unstuck is the two hot water cylinders! How should these be entered? Should I use the one that provides for the larger part of the house? The only option is for entering one cylinder on DEAP. In a moment of absurdity I thought about adding up the volume of both cylinders and averaging lagging/insulation but this will greatly skewer figures in my opinion. Any thoughts will be gratefully received.

Thanks in advance.

No takers on my quaestion above?;) Not sure if that means it was silly question or a good question:eek: Have sent email to SEI and followed up with a phone call but no response yet.

buzymc

Count1,

"Where multiple hot water cylinders are present in a dwelling the average insulation thickness is determinedusing the weighted volume of each cylinder." I have taken this from the BER technical bulletin from April 09, if you download the pdf from the sei's website they give examples of calculations.

I'm assessing a dwelling that I am designing and I want to put in underfloor heating in 4 zones. In the DEAP software in "distribution systems losses & gains" you are asked to input the number of of central heating pumps. Will I need 4 pumps, just one or none?

Thanks.

SilverBER

Based on underfloor heating systems that I have done in the past it is usually just one pump with a manifold split into 4 zones using motorised valves controlled by room stats in each zone.

Thanks SilverBER. You might be able to answer this one too... I have solar thermal for water heating, do I list this again under "Renewable and energy saving technologies" in the "Fuel data" tab of "Energy Requirements"?

SilverBER

This hasn't arisen for me yet but thats what we were told to do.

buzymc wrote: »

Count1,

"Where multiple hot water cylinders are present in a dwelling the average insulation thickness is determinedusing the weighted volume of each cylinder." I have taken this from the BER technical bulletin from April 09, if you download the pdf from the sei's website they give examples of calculations.

Thanks buzymc. Much appreciated! SEI have also come back to me ( over a week later) with what seems to be the same response. Great to have the feedback form boards.ie!

Just checking a few things...

If a living area is open to the stairs and first floor landing do you include this area in zone 1 - I seem to remember you don't

If a house has closable trickle vents in the windows do you count these as passive vents?

If I have a h/w cylinder that is .5 radius and .65 high what is the likely water storage capacity? (The volume works out at about .5m3)

Cheers

dibber wrote: »

Just checking a few things...

If a living area is open to the stairs and first floor landing do you include this area in zone 1 - I seem to remember you don't

If a house has closable trickle vents in the windows do you count these as passive vents?

If I have a h/w cylinder that is .5 radius and .65 high what is the likely water storage capacity? (The volume works out at about .5m3)

Cheers

dibber... i dont mean to be facetious but if you were to receive direct answers to your questions, i would fear that you wouldnt actually learn anything... read the DEAP manual if you are unsure of things...

but anyway

1. you dont
2. you dont
3. The water cylinder volume should be calculated by recording both the cylinder height and the diameter of the cylinder. The volume (which applies to hot water storage only) is then calculated as follows:
V = (pi x d2/4) x h / 1000
Where:
d = diameter of the cylinder (cm)
h = height of the cylinder (cm)
pi = 3.142
V = volume of the cylinder (litres)

Fair point Sydthebeat - I will go through the manual cover to cover. However is the volume not pi r squared x height? i.e. pi x (d/2) squared x h, not pi x d2/4 x h as you have suggested?

i agree that pi r2 h is the formula for a cylinder

that formula is straight from an SEI technical bulletin....

im going to assume that formula takes the spherical top section into account as well as the cylinder....

joebre

As r=D/2,
then π r2 is the same as π D2/4.

"Sorry but it is hard to get superscript to work here"

I take the height of the cylinder as the tiop of the cylindrical bit and do not take account of the tapered bit on top.

Joe

joebre wrote: »

As r=D/2,
then π r2 is the same as π D2/4.

"Sorry but it is hard to get superscript to work here"

I take the height of the cylinder as the tiop of the cylindrical bit and do not take account of the tapered bit on top.

Joe

thanks joe... maths not my strong point

joebre

No problem at all.
I think that they use Dsquared /4 as you have measured the diameter in your survey and it saves you having to divide it by 2 to get and radius and then square that !

Ron09

Im doing a BER for existing apartment build in late 90's. It has a combination cylinder fully insulated (hot and cold water stored ) how do i work out how much of its just for the hot water?? will i just go with half??

zelemon

I applied for planning in Jan 2007 & was granted it, i started building in late 2008 & am close to signing off on the final a/c. I am yet to get my BER done. Can I ask what should have happened? when should i have got the preliminary done & when should i get the final test?

nodenrg

zelemon wrote: »

I applied for planning in Jan 2007 & was granted it, i started building in late 2008 & am close to signing off on the final a/c. I am yet to get my BER done. Can I ask what should have happened? when should i have got the preliminary done & when should i get the final test?

My understanding is you should have done your preliminary before starting on site - building control have a right to ask you to produce it - and you should get your full one before occupation.

drocklen1985

Good Morning,

Bloody great start to my day means i have been attacked very successfully by the 'avenger' virus, rendering my computer completely useless.

I am in dire need of IT help this morning.

How can I recover the XML files from the program files of the DEAP from the hard-drive i have rescued and attached to another computer.

I can locate any exported xml files, no luck with anything else. BTW I use the DEAP for design purposes so the need for me to export them is rare.

Are these files unobtainable now> I would appreciate any advice or help.