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BER Technical thread

lottyprop

I am a qualified but as of yet unregistered BER assessor. I work in property management and initially my plan was to assess my own properties. However prior to doing so I want to be sure I am 100% confident in my ability as an assessor.

So far this year our company has had 4 properties assessed by a registered BER assessor. I have assessed each of those properties unofficially and come out with the same result for 2 of the 4. Who was more correct ? Honestly I don't know!

I would like to start a thread BER assessors could share knowledge and ideas. I know I would benefit form it and I am sure other assessors would too. I would like to emphasize that I don't plan on being a site parasite. I have done both new and existing BER courses and have followed them up with a significant amount of practice and research. I will willingly answer any BER related questions that I possibly can ..

If I can get the ball rolling with a question ...

If an external door is 40% glazing it's default u-value must be adjusted as follows :

(glazing u-val x 40) + (door u-val x 60) / 100

My question is where does the glazing come from. An obvious way of getting this u-val would be to use the DEAP software and input the glazing area under the windows section and then use this u-value..

This is what I have been doing for my unofficial assessments ? is this the correct way of doing it?

Also if there is a glass panel to the side of the door, should the entire opening be treated as the door with the glazed side panel a percentage of the door or should the side panel be treated as a separate window?

I realise these make very little difference but I am anxious to get my assessment procedure as accurate as possible before offering my services.

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wall2wall

I am doing an assessment for a new house and the boiler in the house is not listed on the Database. I've contacted the supplier and they have given me technical data for it but the efficiency doesn't make sense and is listed as follows;

Boiler Efficiency Max Capacity
Heating Curve 75/60 C 97.8%
Heating Curve 40/30 C 106.7%

Standard Efficiency
Heating Curve 75/60 C 105%
Heating Curve 40/30 C 109%

It's a Buderus Logamax GB112-43 high efficiency condensing gas boiler.

If somebody was able to throw a bit of light on the subject I'd really appreciate it or maybe somebody has come across the same problem.

blackpudlian

wall2wall wrote: »

I am doing an assessment for a new house and the boiler in the house is not listed on the Database. I've contacted the supplier and they have given me technical data for it but the efficiency doesn't make sense and is listed as follows;

Boiler Efficiency Max Capacity
Heating Curve 75/60 C 97.8%
Heating Curve 40/30 C 106.7%

Standard Efficiency
Heating Curve 75/60 C 105%
Heating Curve 40/30 C 109%

It's a Buderus Logamax GB112-43 high efficiency condensing gas boiler.

If somebody was able to throw a bit of light on the subject I'd really appreciate it or maybe somebody has come across the same problem.

Use Appendix D of DEAP to work out the seasonal efficiency

blackpudlian

dahayeser wrote: »

1) I surveyed a house recently and it had an open plan living room / kitchen. It also had the stairs in this room so there was no defined area to the living area - it led straight up stairs in to the first floor hall ! I am wondering what constitutes the living room area in this case ?

Ignore the stairs, ignore the 1st floor hall, just use the area of the open plan room.

dahayeser wrote: »

2) Another house I surveyed had a modern extension and the whole house was renovated while this renovation was taking place including floors insulated and walls dry lined. The owner is offering to provide me with the renovation plans from the building contractor. I would assume if I had the plans and a letter from the building contractors confirming that all renovations were carried out as per plans that would be sufficient evidence?

That should be sufficient

ben bedlam

In the efficeincy adjustment factor box under energy requirements-space heating- I put in '1' for a gas combi boiler system since I could not see it highlighed on table 4c and it says enter '1' where not applicable. Am I right here?

japbyrne

My understanding of it is, when there is no efficiency adjustment factor,
you enter 1.

awhyte

Has anyone come across a galvanized corrugated roof on any assessment they've done. I recently done a house built 1910 but had an extension added 6 years ago with a pitched roof insulated at rafters and galvanized corrugated panels. Couldn't find any info on the thermal conductivity of these panels anywhere.

engrish?

awhyte wrote: »

Has anyone come across a galvanized corrugated roof on any assessment they've done. I recently done a house built 1910 but had an extension added 6 years ago with a pitched roof insulated at rafters and galvanized corrugated panels. Couldn't find any info on the thermal conductivity of these panels anywhere.

Is the area heated? Could you look at it as an unheated extension and therefore not include it in the survey?

awhyte

No it has to be included as it is connected by an internal door

sydthebeat

awhyte wrote: »

No it has to be included as it is connected by an internal door

whats the use of the space??

DEAP differentiates between garages and stores/utilities..... but irish people dont!!!

awhyte

It's used as a guest bedroom.

sydthebeat

can you verify exactly what the construction is under the cladding...

if not, then you cannot work out the specific u value, and should default to the value for that age band... no?

Smcgie

+1 with SYD.. Don't attempt anything that will cone back to haunt you

awhyte

All I can see is the corrugated sheets and the timber panels inside the bedroom. I've been told there's insulation between the rafters by the auctioneer but thats no good to me. I'm guessing I'll have to use the default value for a pitched roof for that year and leave it at that. It's not a huge area, only 12msq.

topcatcbr

The default in this situation i believe would be far better than the actual calculated value (Assuming No added insulation).

No6

I'd have to agree with topcat, sometimes the defaults will work better for you, if so use them!!

awhyte

Thanks lads.

hogandrew

Hi i havent done alot of assesments yet but one i done the other day was on an apartment which had an electric immersion as its only form of hot water heating.

I assumed this was supplementary immersion hot water in the summer?

And electricicty as primary hot water source
and no secondary.

Is this not yes for supplementary immersion as it doesnt suppliment anything?

sydthebeat

hogandrew wrote: »

Hi i havent done alot of assesments yet but one i done the other day was on an apartment which had an electric immersion as its only form of hot water heating.

I assumed this was supplementary immersion hot water in the summer?

And electricicty as primary hot water source
and no secondary.

Is this not yes for supplementary immersion as it doesnt suppliment anything?

It is 'NO' for supplementary immersion as its not supplement to anything.

hogandrew

Thanks a million. A pity SEI weren't so straight forward with an answer. Here's what they replied

An immersion is to be included in the following cases:

Case A:
Where the main water heating system is incapable of providing hot water without space heating e.g. manual solid fuel room heater with back boiler.
• Under water heating tab “supplementary water heating in summer” set to yes
• Secondary water heating fuel type = electricity

Case B:
Where there is a heat pump with an immersion:
• Supplementary immersion used in summer set to “no”
• Secondary water heating fuel type set to none
• Efficiency of main water heater set to result of equation G1 in the DEAP manual, appendix G. This accounts for the immersion.
• Main water heater fuel type is electricity

sydthebeat

this is from the latest SEI technical bulletin:

(2) The main water heating system is an electric immersion in a cylinder. What do I do?

Where an immersion is the main water heater, then the hot water storage temperature factor from table 2 is
set to 0.6. When determining the temperature factor multiplier, the immersion will have a built in thermostat,
and the timer adjustment does not apply as this is not a boiler/heat pump. Therefore the temperature factor
multiplier is set to 1.
The main water heating efficiency is 100% and the main water heating fuel is electricity.
Do not specify supplementary water heating during summer in this scenario.

sydthebeat

just wondering of anyone has seen a set up like this for apartment heating.

space = electric storage heating, time clocked, not fan assisted

water = what appears to be two cylinders formed into one, the lower cylinder has a dual immersion heater, the upper cylinder seems to act as a thermal store... roughly 300 litres in total...

edir: this is for an apartment constructed in 2005, but its only getting an E2 rating.... i suppose it makes sense seeing as space and water is electric fuelled... but....

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

just wondering of anyone has seen a set up like this for apartment heating.

space = electric storage heating, time clocked, not fan assisted

water = what appears to be two cylinders formed into one, the lower cylinder has a dual immersion heater, the upper cylinder seems to act as a thermal store... roughly 300 litres in total...

edir: this is for an apartment constructed in 2005, but its only getting an E2 rating.... i suppose it makes sense seeing as space and water is electric fuelled... but....

Syd,

Thats a cold water storage tank over the hot water tank. You should have 150L for your hot water storage I think.

Cold storage is used for cisterns etc.

http://www.lycrisbyrne.com/combo.html

We are doing a block apartments build in the early 90's that have them at present so I had to do a bit of research a few weeks back.

sydthebeat

thanks chimpster, thats exactly it....

but theres hardly 150 litres in that lower tank???

I did notice that the lid of the top cylinder was removable, which was strange....

thats for that info... very useful!!!

Chimpster

sydthebeat wrote: »

thanks chimpster, thats exactly it....

but theres hardly 150 litres in that lower tank???

I did notice that the lid of the top cylinder was removable, which was strange....

thats for that info... very useful!!!

I have a pretty detailed drawing of the tank that I found in one of the apartments. It doesn't have any volume figures on it but both the cold water and the hot water tanks appear to be exatly the same size on it.

Actually I just pulled out the survey sheet that was on file and its 100 litres that we put into DEAP. I think we called Lycris Byrne at the time.

sydthebeat

excellent, thanks again chimpster...

SilverBER

In combined tanks the cylinder capacity is generally 120L. The top cold water storage tank should have a lid on it as in attic tanks. In Gold Shield homes the storage tank should have a float switch that cuts out the pump when the tank is dry and there should be a minimum 50 mm FF insulation on the cylinder. The groups should be controlled by an E or Economy 7 timer switch. Storage heaters are always non fan assisted unless they are combination units with the fan heater supposedly controlled by a room stat. It depends on the builder / electrical contractor and the price they have in for the job - it is cheaper to put a standard slimline storage heater in. Hope this is of assistance.

sydthebeat

SilverBER wrote: »

In combined tanks the cylinder capacity is generally 120L. The top cold water storage tank should have a lid on it as in attic tanks. In Gold Shield homes the storage tank should have a float switch that cuts out the pump when the tank is dry and there should be a minimum 50 mm FF insulation on the cylinder. The groups should be controlled by an E or Economy 7 timer switch. Storage heaters are always non fan assisted unless they are combination units with the fan heater supposedly controlled by a room stat. It depends on the builder / electrical contractor and the price they have in for the job - it is cheaper to put a standard slimline storage heater in. Hope this is of assistance.

it certainly is... thanks silver...

engrish?

Glass bricks on the wall adjoining the communal area in an apartment.... Now the communal area is actually heated but it is massive and cold.

I'm confused! Do I just find the uvalue of the glass bricks and put them in as a separate wall? It was three separate (pain in the arse) windows that would obviously have a different u value.

Thanks

Count1

Hi from a serial lurker!

I am working on a BER Assessment on a pre 1900 terreced house with no central heating. However, there are 5 chimneys in the property. As background, there is one uninsulated cylinder for hot water with basic ON/OFF. Unsurprisingly, my preliminary figures are quite poor ( G ).

When I go to upload to NAS, I am getting an NYP but with quite a few "notices" which is causing me to second guess myself!

My initial plan was to enter open fireplace as primary heating ( efficiaency 30% etc) as it is in fact the ONLY heating for the house but the notices are indicating that this is not "the done thing" Here is what they say:

018: Has a chimney, but no value entered for Supplementary Space Heating Efficiency and/or fraction of heat from Supplementary Space Heating System ( Severity 1)

084: It is likely that you have selected an open fire without a back boiler as your primary heating system. Please ref to DEAP manual Appendix A ( Severity 1)

075 No central heating pump included in assessment ( Severity 2)

Apologies if the above is a little long winded but I thought it may help with any responses I get!

Am I looking at this the wrong way? Did i see something posted here or in DEAP before that if there is no central heating, it is assumed to be electric as primary? Finally, is supplementary electric immersion heating used in summer? Thanks in advance and apologies if this appears to be really basic stuff but the the notices have really given me second thoughts.

engrish?

018: Has a chimney, but no value entered for Supplementary Space Heating Efficiency and/or fraction of heat from Supplementary Space Heating System ( Severity 1)

But there is no supplementary heating system - I would agree with you here.

084: It is likely that you have selected an open fire without a back boiler as your primary heating system. Please ref to DEAP manual Appendix A ( Severity 1)

075 No central heating pump included in assessment ( Severity 2)

There is none, I would agree with you.

Am I looking at this the wrong way? Did i see something posted here or in DEAP before that if there is no central heating, it is assumed to be electric as primary?

I dont remember ever seeing that.

Finally, is supplementary electric immersion heating used in summer?

I would have thought that this is a no, as it is not supplementary. It is the only form of water heating. Like electric heating in an apartment.