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Architectural Technologist Register

  • 20-02-2014 11:36pm
    #1
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭


    Hi all,

    I'm looking for an expression of interest in forming a new statutory Architectural Technologists Register. We need to start networking and getting names and numbers in order that we can commence a program to lobby our local politicians.

    We have much to offer to the construction industry, I see this as finally a great opportunity to have my profession recognised. I'm a proud Architectural Technologist, we need to let the public know who we are and what we do.

    We have no other option now but to organise and lobby.

    M


«13

Comments

  • #2
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    MDGAT wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for an expression of interest in forming a new statutory Architectural Technologists Register. We need to start networking and getting names and numbers in order that we can commence a program to lobby our local politicians.

    We have much to offer to the construction industry, I see this as finally a great opportunity to have my profession recognised. I'm a proud Architectural Technologist, we need to let the public know who we are and what we do.

    We have no other option now but to organise and lobby.

    M

    Hi M,

    There is a collective of 800 members on the "Architectural Technology in Ireland" group on LinkedIn and some good discussions.....not sure of the make up of the 800 or how many pay attention but it's something.

    Also, the "Irish Architectural Technology Graduate Network (IATGN)" have a facebook page.......it would be a good start for all involved to at least go to both of those sites to communicate i think!

    Jimmy


  • #3
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    I agree with the last poster, we need to organise on an open forum such as LinkedIn or Facebook, get people interested initially and perhaps organise to meet to discuss. We need to gather support and put together a petition to the oireachtas, outlining our demand that a statutory register of architectural technologists is adopted into law and that AT's are recognised as competent to certify compliance.

    Personally, I think a new group should be set up on LinkedIn purely for debating and gathering support for the establishment of a register of Architectural Technologists. The owner of the Architectural Technology in Ireland group on LinkedIn has stated on the group that technologists should accept the Ancillary Certifier role and take on the mantle of a "technical professional", this should not be acceptable to those of us who are PROFESSIONALS and nothing less.

    In regard to the IATGN, have not heard a peep from them on this issue, in fact, I had assumed the IATGN was dead and buried!


  • #4
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    Great...800 is a good start...I / we need to make contact...I will also follow up on the IATGN...

    The idea is to get numbers first, define what we want and commence a campaign to lobby and publicise our issues.

    I believe that the public will be most interested when the reality of March 1st hits...my consultant engineer is talking of 10s of 1000's in related fees...

    In my opinion we are highly trained to be both Building Designers and Assigned Certifiers...I will be contacting the relevant third level colleges / universities to outline their course content with regard to the specialised training of the Building regulation. But in the mean time we need to organise NUMBERS / INTEREST / NAMES...


  • #5
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    jimmy_presley wrote: »
    Hi M,

    There is a collective of 800 members on the "Architectural Technology in Ireland" group on LinkedIn and some good discussions.....not sure of the make up of the 800 or how many pay attention but it's something.

    Also, the "Irish Architectural Technology Graduate Network (IATGN)" have a facebook page.......it would be a good start for all involved to at least go to both of those sites to communicate i think!

    Jimmy

    Can you link to FB page. I cannot find it.


  • #6
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    This is an issue, there seems to be several forums out there but no collective forum.

    I will also search for the FACEBOOK page.

    The first GOAL is to unite all interested AT's and then form a register.

    any ideas would be appreciated...I have already had several positive PM's

    M


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  • #7
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/home.php?soft=jewel%3D2

    Hope that copy and paste works folks.....im using my phone.

    I suppose we got to walk before we run so getting together there and linkedin wud be a start. I wouldnt worry abt the owner of the linkedin page its a place to express views and theres been plenty of wide ranging debate and disagreement and agreement so i wouldnt let that put people of at all....


  • #8
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    Hi Jimmy,

    That link didnt work for me.

    I'm sure the debate is fantastic..they always are....

    BUT FOR NOW A REGISTER IS WHAT IS NEEDED....

    M


  • #9
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    Im in, ill keep an eye on this thread for any updates...


  • #10
    Corkblowin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Corkblowin


    Lads, I don't want to be a killjoy or dampen enthusiasm too much, but what you're talking about - building a professional representative body, from scratch, to be recognised by the government as a competent organisation to hold a register - is likely to take years (5-10 possibly), particularly with Hogan in charge. It is an extremely long road to get from zero to protected title in Ireland – took the RIAI over 50 years! I was very slightly involved in the IATGN previously and the obstacles were massive.

    IMO, we're better off adding our collective weight to an already established body with a track record of maintaining a register, have achieved recognition in the EU, have competencies assessed, mapped and recognised against other professional bodies.

    Due to the RIAI shafting us the CIAT are the only route I can see and, if theres enough of a membership, its likely they'll set up a dedicated office in Ireland.

    Its the route I'm pursuing anyway - have RIAI tech membership at the moment and have joined the CIAT as a profile candidate to get chartered through the professional assessment route.


  • #11
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Corkblowin wrote: »
    ...took the RIAI over 50 years!

    More like 150 years. First raised in the 1860's, as far as I am aware.

    A very long road! :)


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  • #12
    bravojohnny
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bravojohnny


    Hi All,

    Count me in too; I will contact all my fellow peers & ask for them to support us as well (I am sure they will).

    I agree with Corkblowin; I think we need to rally in behind the CIAT. We need more renegotiation for what we do; we need to let the public know what we do. I for one am sick of people calling me a draughtsman & saying to me 'why don't you back to college & finish off your architecture degree'. In their eyes they think that I / we are am someone that bailed out of an architecture course & now have no qualification.

    Also,
    I was talking to a chartered surveyor recently; & he could not understand how he could certify under the new regs. & Arch. Tech.s cant. he continued by saying that he knows very little in the way of detailing etc. Make no mistake about it; WE ARE the most suitable professionals to be issuing certs under the new regs.

    We need to come together & make ourselves heard.


  • #13
    4Sticks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    Corkblowin wrote: »
    the CIAT are the only route I can see and,

    Me too


  • #14
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    OK guys,

    The way I see it.....

    We need a register for OUR Profession. The RIAI have shafted us..agreed.

    The CIAT are very good at promoting OUR Profession....agreed.

    So we IRISH TECHNOLOGISTS take into our hands and organise with the help of CIAT and create an IRISH MEMBERSHIP / REGISTRAR.

    I see this is IRISH members solving and IRISH problem with the help of CIAT.

    I will be joining them today.


  • #15
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    I see this as IRISH members solving an IRISH problem.....

    WE need a STATUTORY REGISTER.


  • #16
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    It may be a better option to get together ourselves first......then go as a large group to Ciat and say....here we are 100 200 300 whatever, are you going to take legal action against the irish state? If so we will join. Money talks.....100 x 70 (membership as assoc till may) is 7000. Pretty modest but you can see how larger numbers wud strengthen our hand. If we join in bits and drabs it may not be the best route but i understand why people are....


  • #17
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    It doesnt matter whether you are CIAT, RIAI, Non member........

    It matters that you express an interest in having a register for YOUR Profession.

    Lets get the names and numbers together first. Then a campaign can be started.


  • #18
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    MDGAT wrote: »
    It doesnt matter whether you are CIAT, RIAI, Non member........

    It matters that you express an interest in having a register for YOUR Profession.

    Lets get the names and numbers together first. Then a campaign can be started.

    The CIAT are already organised and have already made statements of complaint AFAIK. It seems the RIAI are only interested in blocking our accession to any register. I know who I'd be rowing in behind.

    Up until now their has been limited benifit in joining either organisation. Maybe this is the stimulus we need to take our profession serious and take action to protect ourselves from extinction. I'd like to see a strong AT network evolving.


  • #19
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    Is there much involved in joining CIAT???


  • #20
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Glebee wrote: »
    Is there much involved in joining CIAT???

    No there isn't contact James Banks in London, get on the website and all the details are there, http://www.ciat.org.uk/

    IATGN tried to do the IRISH thing, it failed miserably unfortunately, CIAT have 10,000 members worldwide, they are our only hope as Architectural Technologists, some of us can convert to other professions but not all.

    Join the Linkedin page and after you join CIAT the CIAT Member Hub also on linkedin, Don't worry about the Guy who started the Irish page, I will always give him a hard time when he goes on about settling for second best!!

    The fence has collapsed, its time to get off it!!


  • #21
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    The CIAT are already organised and have already made statements of complaint AFAIK. It seems the RIAI are only interested in blocking our accession to any register. I know who I'd be rowing in behind.

    Up until now their has been limited benifit in joining either organisation. Maybe this is the stimulus we need to take our profession serious and take action to protect ourselves from extinction. I'd like to see a strong AT network evolving.


    We're obsessed with membership of this and membership of that. Thus far neither organisation have got anywhere and the CIAT who have been trying - at least - are still not in any sort of position of power numbers wise in this country.

    For the moment a united front is whats needed or our in-fighting or disagreement will continue. The anger towards RIAI and suspicion about CIAT is always just bubbling under the surface which isn't helpful and completely diverts peoples attention and sends these discussions off on bizarre tangents.

    I'm not privy to everything but there are moves afoot to get things moving again, in a neutral fashion, and whether you're a member of either organisation it won't make a damned bit of difference for the time being so I for one would say don't waste your money........just yet.

    It's a personal choice of course but taking a punt on either organisation at the moment is just that.....a punt.


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  • #22
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    Again, I would say, please "Like" the IATGN page on Facebook and join the Architectural Technology in Ireland Group on LinkedIn.

    These seem to be the best places to keep up to date on issues......even as we speak....

    Thanks folks.


  • #23
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    I still cannot find the IATGN page on facebook. I did a search and nothing came up


  • #24
    jimmy_presley
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭jimmy_presley


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    I still cannot find the IATGN page on facebook. I did a search and nothing came up


    https://www.facebook.com/IrishArchitecturalTechnologyGraduatesNetwork

    Hope that works topcatcbr......it's definitely there!


  • #25
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    See results of search


  • #26
    topcatcbr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


    Got it Thanks

    Not great profiling that it won't come up in a Facebook search.


  • #27
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    topcatcbr wrote: »
    Got it Thanks

    Not great profiling that it won't come up in a Facebook search.

    Have to agree. Seems to be pretty much a bulletin board with no debate at all. LinkedIn "Architectural Technology in Ireland" page seems to be a better place to discuss.


  • #28
    MDGAT
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭MDGAT


    jimmy_presley wrote: »
    We're obsessed with membership of this and membership of that. Thus far neither organisation have got anywhere and the CIAT who have been trying - at least - are still not in any sort of position of power numbers wise in this country.

    For the moment a united front is whats needed or our in-fighting or disagreement will continue. The anger towards RIAI and suspicion about CIAT is always just bubbling under the surface which isn't helpful and completely diverts peoples attention and sends these discussions off on bizarre tangents.

    I'm not privy to everything but there are moves afoot to get things moving again, in a neutral fashion, and whether you're a member of either organisation it won't make a damned bit of difference for the time being so I for one would say don't waste your money........just yet.

    It's a personal choice of course but taking a punt on either organisation at the moment is just that.....a punt.

    That sounds promising....when is it going to HAPPEN....


  • #29
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    jimmy_presley wrote: »
    Thus far neither organisation have got anywhere and the CIAT who have been trying - at least - are still not in any sort of position of power numbers wise in this country.

    So, if the RIAI aren't doing anything and will not do anything for AT's give the power to CIAT and join them, give them the numbers and the power.


  • #30
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    jimmy_presley wrote: »

    I'm not privy to everything but there are moves afoot to get things moving again, in a neutral fashion, and whether you're a member of either organisation it won't make a damned bit of difference for the time being so I for one would say don't waste your money........just yet.

    It's a personal choice of course but taking a punt on either organisation at the moment is just that.....a punt.

    Please enlighten us on this jimmy, it sounds to me like another sop being put in our direction to try to stop us doing anything. A large number of AT's have tried sitting on the fence for years and I think they have all just fallen off, are you suggesting another wait and see approach when its already too late?


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  • #31
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    see link to post

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89347291&postcount=1395


  • #32
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    If technicans have not been acknowledged by Minister Hogan over the last two years what makes anybody think hes suddenly going to change now and god forbid admit a mistake. Id say well be waiting a long time on this one.
    The RIAI are not going to back it either so were screwed...:( Maybe im to
    pessimistic about it all.


  • #33
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,838 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Glebee wrote: »
    If technicans have not been acknowledged by Minister Hogan over the last two years what makes anybody think hes suddenly going to change now and god forbid admit a mistake. Id say well be waiting a long time on this one.
    The RIAI are not going to back it either so were screwed...:( Maybe im to
    pessimistic about it all.

    get enthused and agitated behind CIAT, would be my advice....


  • #34
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    And even if nothing changes being a MCIAT gives you options for other approaches that you do not have anywhere else at the moment. Most MCIAT's in Ireland are already actively pursuing these routes but you got to join before you can start.


  • #35
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

    It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

    This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Assigned Certifier.


  • #36
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,838 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    shane6977 wrote: »
    Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

    It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

    This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Certifier.

    Any technician STILL with, or intending to join, RIAI should hang their head in shame for giving them fuel to keep us 'in the box'.

    I urge all technicians again to look to CIAT and join, even as profile members, and see the difference in the regard our profession is held.

    I would also urge past students of Architectural Technology courses to write to the course heads and express their frustrations and anger about how the RIAI have treated ATs and urge them to both inform the current students of the situation and to break from RIAI course approval and move to CIAT approval.


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  • #37
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I would also urge past students of Architectural Technology courses to write to the course heads and express their frustrations and anger about how the RIAI have treated ATs and urge them to both inform the current students of the situation and to break from RIAI course approval and move to CIAT approval.

    +1 on this. The colleges have been incredibly quiet on this issue.


  • #38
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,141 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    shane6977 wrote: »
    Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

    It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

    This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Assigned Certifier.

    Lied to
    Manipulated
    Strung along
    Cheated
    Clients stolen
    Livelihoods lost


  • #39
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ...I was talking to an RIAI Arch today, and he feels RIAI sold out on this whole thing, and concurs on the treatment of AT's.

    Interestingly he told me they (RIAI) members all got an email in the last week advising them that they should expect considerable increases in costs of engaging AT's - I suspect they mean that this is in response to an attempt to address the lack of parity of esteem by AT'S.

    Costs suggested were not known, but he was expecting costs to on-par with his own actual rates...........

    More power to ye, that's my 0.02 :)

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  • #40
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    CIAT application process looks for a referee to support your application. Anybody know if this is necessary??


  • #41
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    Yes but they don't have to be MCIAT, an RIAI architect, RISC Surveyor or an engineer are also acceptable. If you still have difficulties get in touch with James in London and he can help you find a supervisor.


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  • #42
    getuponthis
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭getuponthis


    Incase anyone is interested, just recieved this notification from CIAT.

    Dear member,

    First of all, many thanks to all of you who complained to the European Commission regarding the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014. We have now had confirmation from the UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), that the European Commission has received a sufficient amount of complaints regarding CIAT Member exclusion from the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations SI 9 of 2014 to investigate this matter further.

    We are therefore writing to advise that your lobbying has initiated the required process and there is no need to submit any further complaints direct or indirect (e.g. via MEPs) as this could now serve to slow down the process.

    We have been informed via our contact at BIS that we should have clarification regarding the Commission’s views after Easter, and will of course notify you as soon as we have any news.

    Regards

    James Banks


  • #43
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

    http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/


  • #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,838 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    No6 wrote: »
    It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

    http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/

    Score for CIAT


  • #45
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,838 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    No6 wrote: »
    It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

    http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/

    Score for CIAT


  • #46
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    This added to Phil Hogans responce to Mick Wallace last week in the Dail would seem to indicate a change to the legislation is on the cards.


  • #47
    4Sticks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭4Sticks


    A swift change one hopes


  • #48
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,141 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Glebee wrote: »
    would seem to indicate
    28 feb
    now 05 June
    thats many arch techs 3 months unable to act as tender design or construction certifer

    i for one am tired of 'indications'.

    will the legislation be put on hold due to the Euro ruling ?


  • #49
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,838 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    BryanF wrote: »
    28 feb
    now 05 June
    thats many arch techs 3 months unable to act as tender design or construction certifer

    i for one am tired of 'indications'.

    will the legislation be put on hold due to the Euro ruling ?

    not quite sure its considered a "ruling" as of yet....


  • #50
    shane6977
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭shane6977


    Received the following email from CIAT last friday:

    Dear member,

    Further to the recent debate in the Dail we can confirm that CIAT has put forward a proposal to the Minster to operate a voluntary register for Architectural Technologists in Ireland with a view to it becoming statutory subject to ministerial approval, to allow those competent Architectural Technologists on the Register to act as both the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier alongside registered Architects, Building Surveyors and Engineers.

    The CIAT-Operated Register will be open for all Architectural Technologists to apply, and is not just for Chartered Architectural Technologists. This is an important distinction to make, and important for the TDs, Minister and Department to understand that we are not operating a closed shop for our Members only.

    The intention of the Register is to be open for all "competent" Architectural Technologists to apply for registration. It has been established to be distinct and separate to CIAT, and will be run under an Irish Registered Company. Chartered Architectural Technologists will not have to demonstrate any additional requirements to gain registration, although they will have to apply to join the Register and pay the necessary fee.

    Other Architectural Technologists can apply but will have to satisfy the Register's requirements and demonstrate the required competences, give their undertaking to comply with the Register’s Code of Conduct and pay the necessary fee and annual subscription to remain on the Register.

    RIAI Architectural Technologists will be eligible to apply for Registration. However as the underpinning knowledge level of the RIAI Architectural Technologist equates to level 7 on the Quality and Qualifications Ireland’s (QQI) national framework of qualifications rather than that of the Chartered Architectural Technologist which equates to knowledge level 8 they will not be given automatic Registration on application (and compliance with the application process). Moreover, we are working on what exemptions may apply to such applicants.

    The Executive Board approved the introduction of the Register and we are now preparing paperwork and detail on the application process ready for launch in July.

    Regards
    Francesca Berriman MBE
    Chief Executive


  • #51
    Glebee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭Glebee


    Mail received from CIAT, Will there be a new Minister in position over the next few days though.....

    Dear member

    Re: CIAT-Operated Register for Architectural Technologists

    Following our continued negotiations with Minister Hogan and his Department we have been invited to a meeting with the Department on 17 July to discuss our proposal for a CIAT - Operated Register for Architectural Technologists.



    When we have further detail we shall of course advise you.



    Regards


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