Architectural Technologist Register

Glebee

If technicans have not been acknowledged by Minister Hogan over the last two years what makes anybody think hes suddenly going to change now and god forbid admit a mistake. Id say well be waiting a long time on this one.
The RIAI are not going to back it either so were screwed...:( Maybe im to
pessimistic about it all.

sydthebeat

Glebee wrote: »

If technicans have not been acknowledged by Minister Hogan over the last two years what makes anybody think hes suddenly going to change now and god forbid admit a mistake. Id say well be waiting a long time on this one.
The RIAI are not going to back it either so were screwed...:( Maybe im to
pessimistic about it all.

get enthused and agitated behind CIAT, would be my advice....

No6

And even if nothing changes being a MCIAT gives you options for other approaches that you do not have anywhere else at the moment. Most MCIAT's in Ireland are already actively pursuing these routes but you got to join before you can start.

shane6977

Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Assigned Certifier.

sydthebeat

shane6977 wrote: »

Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Certifier.

Any technician STILL with, or intending to join, RIAI should hang their head in shame for giving them fuel to keep us 'in the box'.

I urge all technicians again to look to CIAT and join, even as profile members, and see the difference in the regard our profession is held.

I would also urge past students of Architectural Technology courses to write to the course heads and express their frustrations and anger about how the RIAI have treated ATs and urge them to both inform the current students of the situation and to break from RIAI course approval and move to CIAT approval.

shane6977

sydthebeat wrote: »

I would also urge past students of Architectural Technology courses to write to the course heads and express their frustrations and anger about how the RIAI have treated ATs and urge them to both inform the current students of the situation and to break from RIAI course approval and move to CIAT approval.

+1 on this. The colleges have been incredibly quiet on this issue.

BryanF

shane6977 wrote: »

Have heard a rumour that the RIAI is going to announce the establishment of a voluntary register of AT’s which they will then seek to have recognised as a statutory register.

It is likely that this register will limit AT’s to the role of architectural assistant and will only allow for AT’s to provide ancillary certification under BC(A)R 2014.

This is not acceptable and will put a ceiling on the career development of AT’s in Ireland. AT’s are best placed and fully qualified to provide full certification services as either Design or Assigned Certifier.

Lied to
Manipulated
Strung along
Cheated
Clients stolen
Livelihoods lost

galwaytt

...I was talking to an RIAI Arch today, and he feels RIAI sold out on this whole thing, and concurs on the treatment of AT's.

Interestingly he told me they (RIAI) members all got an email in the last week advising them that they should expect considerable increases in costs of engaging AT's - I suspect they mean that this is in response to an attempt to address the lack of parity of esteem by AT'S.

Costs suggested were not known, but he was expecting costs to on-par with his own actual rates...........

More power to ye, that's my 0.02

Glebee

CIAT application process looks for a referee to support your application. Anybody know if this is necessary??

No6

Yes but they don't have to be MCIAT, an RIAI architect, RISC Surveyor or an engineer are also acceptable. If you still have difficulties get in touch with James in London and he can help you find a supervisor.

getuponthis

Incase anyone is interested, just recieved this notification from CIAT.

Dear member,

First of all, many thanks to all of you who complained to the European Commission regarding the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014. We have now had confirmation from the UK Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), that the European Commission has received a sufficient amount of complaints regarding CIAT Member exclusion from the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations SI 9 of 2014 to investigate this matter further.

We are therefore writing to advise that your lobbying has initiated the required process and there is no need to submit any further complaints direct or indirect (e.g. via MEPs) as this could now serve to slow down the process.

We have been informed via our contact at BIS that we should have clarification regarding the Commission’s views after Easter, and will of course notify you as soon as we have any news.

Regards

James Banks

No6

It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/

Score for CIAT

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

It seems the EU ombudsman believe SI 9 is in breech of EU law!!

http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/architectural-technologists-si-9-is-in-breach-of-eu-law/

Score for CIAT

Glebee

This added to Phil Hogans responce to Mick Wallace last week in the Dail would seem to indicate a change to the legislation is on the cards.

4Sticks

A swift change one hopes

BryanF

Glebee wrote: »

would seem to indicate

28 feb
now 05 June
thats many arch techs 3 months unable to act as tender design or construction certifer

i for one am tired of 'indications'.

will the legislation be put on hold due to the Euro ruling ?

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

28 feb
now 05 June
thats many arch techs 3 months unable to act as tender design or construction certifer

i for one am tired of 'indications'.

will the legislation be put on hold due to the Euro ruling ?

not quite sure its considered a "ruling" as of yet....

shane6977

Received the following email from CIAT last friday:

Dear member,

Further to the recent debate in the Dail we can confirm that CIAT has put forward a proposal to the Minster to operate a voluntary register for Architectural Technologists in Ireland with a view to it becoming statutory subject to ministerial approval, to allow those competent Architectural Technologists on the Register to act as both the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier alongside registered Architects, Building Surveyors and Engineers.

The CIAT-Operated Register will be open for all Architectural Technologists to apply, and is not just for Chartered Architectural Technologists. This is an important distinction to make, and important for the TDs, Minister and Department to understand that we are not operating a closed shop for our Members only.

The intention of the Register is to be open for all "competent" Architectural Technologists to apply for registration. It has been established to be distinct and separate to CIAT, and will be run under an Irish Registered Company. Chartered Architectural Technologists will not have to demonstrate any additional requirements to gain registration, although they will have to apply to join the Register and pay the necessary fee.

Other Architectural Technologists can apply but will have to satisfy the Register's requirements and demonstrate the required competences, give their undertaking to comply with the Register’s Code of Conduct and pay the necessary fee and annual subscription to remain on the Register.

RIAI Architectural Technologists will be eligible to apply for Registration. However as the underpinning knowledge level of the RIAI Architectural Technologist equates to level 7 on the Quality and Qualifications Ireland’s (QQI) national framework of qualifications rather than that of the Chartered Architectural Technologist which equates to knowledge level 8 they will not be given automatic Registration on application (and compliance with the application process). Moreover, we are working on what exemptions may apply to such applicants.

The Executive Board approved the introduction of the Register and we are now preparing paperwork and detail on the application process ready for launch in July.

Regards
Francesca Berriman MBE
Chief Executive

Glebee

Mail received from CIAT, Will there be a new Minister in position over the next few days though.....

Dear member

Re: CIAT-Operated Register for Architectural Technologists

Following our continued negotiations with Minister Hogan and his Department we have been invited to a meeting with the Department on 17 July to discuss our proposal for a CIAT - Operated Register for Architectural Technologists.



When we have further detail we shall of course advise you.



Regards

4Sticks

on Friday 18th July 2014 the CIAT issued the following advice note of the above meeting to its members:

Dear Member

Architectural Technologists’ Register meeting update

Following a meeting with Aidan O’Connor and Martin Vaughan at the DECLG, which was also attended by representatives of the RIAI, I would confirm the following:

Minister Kelly has not yet been briefed (he had been in post less than one-week)
The commitment to develop Architectural Technologists’ Registers is supported by the Minister (this would be ongoing with the new Minister) and Department
There could be two Registers (CIAT’s and RIAI’s)
CIAT made clear our position that our Register would hold competent Architectural Technologists in relation to the intention of acting as an Assigned Certify (sic) and Design Certifier
John Graby, RIAI Director General said that he could make no such statement
CIAT would be working with the various stakeholders across Ireland to gain support for a Statutory Register
Any potential Statutory Register would need to be supported by primary legislation
This is separate to the inclusion in the S.I.09 of 2014 the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations in relation to certification; the Minister can include the Register without the need for additional primary legislation.
CIAT is to launch its Voluntary Register before the end of July.CIAT is to start liaising with the necessary stakeholders in preparation of a Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists. Those on the Statutory Register for Architectural Technologists established by CIAT will be competent to lead projects of all sizes from conception through to completion AND act as the Design Certifier and Assigned Certifier – we will continue to work with the Minister, Department and stakeholders in this regard.

At the time of writing we are not aware of any statement being issued by the DECLG or by the RIAI to its Architectural Technologist members in relation to the above meeting. We asked the RIAI to provide a statement prior to publication but this has not been forthcoming at this time.

The RIAI should butt out now as they have no honest role to play in these talks.
They are clearly there to frustrate competition to the advantage of their primary members i.e Architects.
Any Architectural Technician who continues to pay fees to the RIAI after this is a fool undermining himself / herself and all other Architectural Technicians

topcatcbr

4Sticks wrote: »

The RIAI should butt out now as they have no honest role to play in these talks.
They are clearly there to frustrate competition to the advantage of their primary members i.e Architects.
Any Architectural Technician who continues to pay fees to the RIAI after this is a fool undermining himself / herself and all other Architectural Technicians

I think the only real reason they have as much support is because practice's that pay staffs fees often limit the fees to certain orgs.

I know government bodies do this. I doubt many self respecting tech would volunteer their own money to the RIAI. I know I wouldn't.

Bazlyons

I’m new to this forum but have been following it recently.

I published some thoughts on the BRegs Forum in May 2014 on a register for Architectural Technologists which also addresses the recently published RIAI “policy” on Techs. I can post a link as I'm a new member here. so i'll repost it in a reply

If you are a Technologist and think the RIAI are the way forward then you pretty much deserve everything you won’t get.

I’ve been an RIAI Tech ‘member’ for 6 years (as a condition of my PI Insurance) and have never got anything for my €240. Their mandate is to protect Architects and if that means standing on Techs then so be it.

The CIAT are the only way forward. I’ve recently completed membership and my PI Insurance costs alone have halved through them because it's Tech Specific. The process isn't onerous any more.

As of this morning the CIAT have their voluntary Register operational with a view to it getting statutory recognition in the future. You don’t have to be a CIAT member to be on this register, just demonstrate competence.

The website is even due to go live this week at architecturaltechnologistsregister.ie

What have the RIAI done to this end so far? Nothing.

Techs should forget about progressing with the IATGN, RIAI or some new organisation and put our weight behind an already established organisation who only represent Techs, know what they are, respect the profession and are ready and willing to operate a register. Any other option sets us back minimum 5 years.

This is a no brainer

Bazlyons

My piece from the Building Regs Forum

A few thoughts on the establishment of a Register of Architectural Technologists

Let me begin by stating a few things. I’m taking from reading posts on this forum that most people on here agree on the following;

1. The current building control system is no better for the consumer than the old system and should be scrapped.

But now that we’re stuck with the system…

2. The exclusion of Architectural Technologists from acting in the role of the Assigned Certifier is baffling and a serious oversight and should be corrected immediately.

3. A register of Architectural Technologists should be established to ensure competence.

If we accept that a register needs to happen, and it seems even Minister Hogan is leaning that way, then serious consideration needs to be given now as to how this is established and who maintains the register. To try and get the Minister’s Department to rectify two of his mistakes could be a lifetime’s work.

As far as I see it there are three options (four if you include do nothing, which let’s face isn’t beyond the bounds of possibility)

Option 1: Establish an Independent Registration Body.

I think we can safely assume this will take months of talking as to how to best establish such a body and probably wouldn’t happen within the lifetime of this Government or mine.

Let’s call that the Nuclear option.

Option 2: Ask the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists CIAT to establish and manage the register of Architectural Technologists in Ireland.

The CIAT is already establishing a “CIAT-operated Register” in the Republic of Ireland for Architectural Technologists competent in certification of design and compliance. This will be open to all professionals who can demonstrate competence and would not be restricted to CIAT members.

The CIAT is the UK’s Competent Authority for Chartered Architectural Technologists and already has systems in place to determine competency levels in the same way the RIAI and SCSI did for their Registers and has many Irish Members already. Cost and time for this option are negligible.

Full disclosure, I’m currently going through the process of becoming a Member myself.

Option 3: Let the RIAI establish a second Register in accordance with their policy statement below, reissued only this week:

At the 7th March 2014, the RIAI Council voted to support in principle the following policy in relation to Architectural Technologists:

1.RIAI will set up an RIAI Register of Architectural Technologists immediately.

2.RIAI acknowledges and will support the need for a Statutory Register of Architectural Technologists.

3.RIAI will promote such a statutory Registered Architectural Technologist as a competent person to:

(a) Carry out Performance Calculation & Technical Design in accordance with
Building Regulations
(b) Certify Performance Calculation and Technical Design carried out in accordance in
Building Regulations
(c) Inspect the construction of buildings as required to certify compliance with
Building Regulations
4.The RIAI will support the development and establishment of an Architectural Technologist Register Admissions Examination (ATRAE) for purposes of entry to the Statutory Register of Architectural Technologists. The examination should be at a level which recognises the education, experience and skills of the Architectural Technologist.

5.RIAI will develop and establish an RIAI Code of Conduct and a Professional Conduct Committee for professional practice as a Registered Architectural Technologist.

As a reluctant Technician Member of the RIAI (a condition of my PI Insurance cover) I have serious reservations about allowing the RIAI establish and maintain this register.

In my time as a Technician Member of the RIAI (c. 5 years) I can honestly say I don’t remember a single thing that the RIAI have done specifically for Technologists. We pay our fees, still have to do the 40 hours of CPD and yet are barred from even signing the RIAI certs of compliance with Planning and Building Regulations on projects we’ve designed and supervised ourselves. To be fair, I do get a nice sticker for my letter head though.

In relation to certifying I’d draw your attention point 3(c) in the above policy statement.

…RIAI will promote such a statutory Registered Architectural Technologist as a competent person to … Inspect the construction of buildings as required to certify compliance with Building Regulations.

Did you see it… Inspect, but not actually certify themselves.

In case you’re thinking this is a wilfully dishonest reading of the wording check out point 3(b) where they specifically state “Certify Performance Calculation and Technical Design carried out in accordance in Regulations”

This is the worry.

The RIAI are there to protect their members, Architects. As a Technologist I’m not convinced this aim wouldn’t be best served by restricting the ability of Technologists to act in the role of Assigned certifier. And we haven’t even started on the time it’ll take to establish their register, put the systems in place to determine competency levels, etc etc. Actually let’s call this the Nuclear Option.

I’m speaking in a personal capacity here and not on behalf of the CIAT or any other technologist but as a Technologist, should Registration ever happen, I’d like it to be handled by an authority who has a proven track record in acting for Architectural Technologists, has the capacity and resources to establish the Register without delay and most importantly is willing to do so.

The CIAT is the only logical option.

BryanF

Bazlyons wrote: »

As of this morning the CIAT have their voluntary Register operational with a view to it getting statutory recognition in the future. You don’t have to be a CIAT member to be on this register, just demonstrate competence.

The website is even due to go live this week at architecturaltechnologistsregister.ie

how do you access the register to request inclusion - please comeback and tell us when it goes live

Bazlyons

Applications for this register only opened yesterday.

Initially the CIAT have written to their members to get on the register but included the following note on the email issued yesterday.

"All non-Chartered Members of CIAT or unregistered Architectural Technologists will need to demonstrate competence to join the Register and pay a €150 fee; the information for achieving this will be found on the Register’s website"

Presumably once the website is live this information will be on it for non-members. Obviously there is a process for demonstrating competence to be allowed onto the register otherwise there'd be little point in having it at all. I imagine the process will be less onerous (and certainly cheaper) than trying to get on the Architect's Register.

CIAT members have already gone through a similar process and are therefore eligible to join.

4Sticks

It is live now

No6

HHmmm Maybe not quite!!! I am only getting a hosting message!! Nevertheless well done CIAT for actually doing something.

Bazlyons

Not quite yet. I was giving them the rest of the week to iron out bugs. :-)

Bazlyons

The ATR is live now.