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People jaded by 'Green' issues
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Auerillo, if you knew anything about the water situation in Ireland, you wouldn't be showing your ignorance with comments like this. Please do some research before you inflict your opinions on us.
Ouch! I have to say I find the tone your reply unfriendly. It would be great if you had a point to make about the water situation, rather than just appear to want to make personal remarks.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Because, auerillo, the issue of water charges had been done to death on boards and I've had it up to here with people going around spouting simplistic sh!te like "it rains in Ireland, therefore we can't have water problems". And it actually gets in the way of a decent, intelligent debate about the real issues.
As I say to all people who hold your view on water, please disconnect your mains and live solely on water collected from rainfall or a well and let us know how you get on.0 -
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How is it plain?
How is it plain that we have ample water in Ireland?
I guess the main clue, to me, is that we flush drinking water down the lavatory. In Ireland, ( as in some other countries) all mains/tap water has to be potable. This means that when we water our gardens, have a bath, shower, flush the loo, wash the car and so on we are doing it with water which is good enough to drink. Hence we waste so much good quality water.
Where we have problems in not that there isn't enough water, but its in the management of water. We flush so much down the drains and lose so much in leaky pipes that our system is, at times, strained. hence the issue is not lack of water, but poor management of the water we have.
If we were to resolve those two issues, ( ie fix the leaky pipes and stop using drinking water for anything other than human consumption) we'd be embarassed because we have so much water.
But even in light of the above, we are lucky enough to live in a country with plentiful rainfall, and we still have enough for our needs.0 -
Everybody gets the point that people care more when they have to pay for a resource. what annoys people is that they already pay for this through their tax.
Why not reduce tax and then tax resources based on usage? Why have people pay through their tax and then pay even more for usage. Smacks of the toll bridge all over again to me.
We (the tax payers) bought it now we still have to pay for it.0 -
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just want to throw into the thread that we dont actually get our water for free.
"Water charges" or any tax on water would be an increase on the price we ALREADY PAY for water.
Would hate to have to pay more for the water they get in galway.0 -
. Buses running all day and only full between 8-9am and 5-6pm running rest of the day empty and at 3 miles per Gallon.
And then we have the trains which are left running all day and all night (they cant be turned off)
do you have a link for the 3 miles per gallon? always wondered about the fuel economy of the busses.
I have heard about trains not being able to shut down but the story was from the 80s - are they still like that?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
KhanTheMan wrote: »Everybody gets the point that people care more when they have to pay for a resource. what annoys people is that they already pay for this through their tax.
Why not reduce tax and then tax resources based on usage? Why have people pay through their tax and then pay even more for usage. Smacks of the toll bridge all over again to me.
We (the tax payers) bought it now we still have to pay for it.Deleted User wrote: »just want to throw into the thread that we dont actually get our water for free.
"Water charges" or any tax on water would be an increase on the price we ALREADY PAY for water.
Would hate to have to pay more for the water they get in galway.
FYI - Irish people have one of the lowest taxation systems in the world:
http://www.mercer.com/pressrelease/details.htm?idContent=1287670
I understand people complaining about double taxation but the big picture is we don't actually pay that much tax. Everyone is so greedy to have it in their own pockets, they lose sight of the big picture. My guess is a fair amount of this sentiment is derived from a distrust of the government.0 -
It derives from the 19th century when Ireland was governed from London. Everyone wanted to stick it to the British government, and even with independence, the tradition of irreverence for governmental authority still holds.FYI - Irish people have one of the lowest taxation systems in the world:
http://www.mercer.com/pressrelease/details.htm?idContent=1287670
I understand people complaining about double taxation but the big picture is we don't actually pay that much tax. Everyone is so greedy to have it in their own pockets, they lose sight of the big picture. My guess is a fair amount of this sentiment is derived from a distrust of the government.
Yes we inferior Irish people are so fraught with moral failures such as greed. We must learn from our continental/Scandinavian overlords.Everyone is so greedy0 -
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I really wonder why are you living here in Ireland? You seem to think it's so poorly developed and serviced, and you evidently have a low opinion of the Irish people. I have a hard time imagining what is so attractive about our country to somebody who sees things this way.
If only it were that simple. Most of my family just happens to live here. I don't really want to subject my children to life in Dublin. Urban sprawl, boxy apartments with no facilities or a house in the suburbs. Awful public transport, car dependency, the lowest % of tree coverage in Europe...I could go on. If I thought there was any point, I would stay and try and forge a career in sustainable development here but I'll probably end up somewhere in Europe where I have more than a snowball's chance in hell of having a good quality of life and a decent career (and a decent summer :pac:).
The people have great personalities, great nightlife, etc. Loads of fun but I can't help but see how shallow the happy facade is and how rotten Irish society has become. Our Gini co-efficient is a disgrace and we have one of the lowest levels of social welfare spending in Europe. We have a serious homeless problem that no one is doing anything about. We are stalling holding a Children's Rights Referendum. It's just plain wrong. I really wish I liked it here but I don't.
Edit: Just on your Scandinavian comment: classic case of Irish begrudgery and inability to take some criticism. Hello - I'm Irish. It doesn't mean all I see when I look at Ireland are rainbows, pots of gold and leprechauns prancing around. If I really didn't give a sh!te about Ireland, I wouldn't be doing the course I'm doing. (Whether or not I can get a career her or not is another issue) Yes, wow, the Irish are NOT the best in the world. No, not EVERYbody loves us. In fact, many Europeans can't stand us and our environmental record and how we still go whinging to Brussels about our C02 cap. We really need to wake up to the fact that the days of "a-ta-ta-ing" and "begorrahing" our way out of our responsibilities is long gone.0 -
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FYI - Irish people have one of the lowest taxation systems in the world:
http://www.mercer.com/pressrelease/details.htm?idContent=1287670
I understand people complaining about double taxation but the big picture is we don't actually pay that much tax. Everyone is so greedy to have it in their own pockets, they lose sight of the big picture. My guess is a fair amount of this sentiment is derived from a distrust of the government.
Are you saying you agree with double taxation because we dont pay that much tax? Why dont you just send a check for the amount of extra tax you think you should be paying and spare the rest of us?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
No that's not what I said. Please try not to put words in my mouth.
Complaints over charges are usually accompanied by general dissatisfaction over Ireland's level of taxation. And I also suggested that this is linked to distrust of how the government is spending its money - which is altogether a different concern to whether or not we pay water charges.
I also used the world "greedy" because the main function of taxation is the redistribution of wealth. For a nation to have such an allergic reaction to taxes, in my mind suggests a rejection of the concept of the redistribution of wealth and/or distrust of government financing.0 -
No that's not what I said. Please try not to put words in my mouth.
Read your post again. It looks like thats exactly what you were saying.Complaints over charges are usually accompanied by general dissatisfaction over Ireland's level of taxation. And I also suggested that this is linked to distrust of how the government is spending its money - which is altogether a different concern to whether or not we pay water charges.
ehm ... Complaints about double taxation are exactly that. No mistrust invloved. If something is covered by your tax now and then you are charged again on top of this it is plainly double taxation.I also used the world "greedy" because the main function of taxation is the redistribution of wealth. For a nation to have such an allergic reaction to taxes, in my mind suggests a rejection of the concept of the redistribution of wealth and/or distrust of government financing.
You just love to judge others, dont you.
Again ..... Nobody is complaining about having to pay tax. People are complaining about having to pay tax twice.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
KhanTheMan wrote: »ehm ... Complaints about double taxation are exactly that. No mistrust invloved. If something is covered by your tax now and then you are charged again on top of this it is plainly double taxation.
I'm not arguing with the concept of double taxation. I'm suggesting that there is another element to it, which I have outlined above.
KhanTheMan, the whole point of this forum is to express an opinion on green issues. Believe it or not, the underlying values, attitudes, beliefs and behaviours of individuals are probably the biggest factors involved. So yes, I will express my opinion on these issues as I feel them to be very relevant.KhanTheMan wrote: »You just love to judge others, dont you.
It would appear to me that your real problem is that you don't like being criticised. It's a normal human attribute - but one we need to overcome if we are really to make any big strides in this area.0 -
It would appear to me that your real problem is that you don't like being criticised. It's a normal human attribute - but one we need to overcome if we are really to make any big strides in this area.
i think this is actually your problem. And you should practice what you preach and overcome it. You come on here and tell people how to live their lives and then accuse them of being greedy because we have a low tax economy, when its pointed out to you that all of these charges are already covered in the tax we pay. Its like being at mass.0 -
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KhanTheMan wrote: »i think this is actually your problem. And you should practice what you preach and overcome it. You come on here and tell people how to live their lives and then accuse them of being greedy because we have a low tax economy, when its pointed out to you that all of these charges are already covered in the tax we pay. Its like being at mass.
This will be my last post in response to you.
I don't come on here and tell anyone to do anything. I come on here to express my opinions about green issues and subjects that are relevant, including human behaviour. I try to give a bit of advice, where asked or throw in some of what I've learned through my course. I also enjoy the discussions with other people here with different views and (sometimes...;)) having my point of view changed.
But I cannot go around with my head in the clouds and convince myself that everything is sunshine and roses and my posts reflect that view. Perhaps if the environmental situation in Ireland were better, my posts would not be so negative but unfortunately this is not the case. For me, a critical look at the existing system of attitudes and values is crucial if any considerable changes are to be made. There really is no need for you to take it so personally because I'm honestly not saying these things for the purpose of offending anyone. I don't get off on pointing out negative issues for just for the hell of it. At the same time, I don't always get it right so the "greedy" comment was probably off the mark.0 -
How would such a system operate exactly?instead of lets tax people on what they dump but give some of that tax back for what they recycle.
Who pays more tax on petrol?someone with a non-efficient car car pays €2000 for tax and does 5000 miles Per Year while someone with an efficient car pays €130 and does 22,000 miles per year... who puts out more CO2 and who is being penalized?
It’s hard enough to get people to consider public transport in Dublin, never mind outside it.Encouraging people to use public transport. if you live outside of Dublin to what public transport are they referring?
That’s not to say that there should not be public transport systems in place in towns around the country. But is there a demand? I was in Ennis last year and I was surprised to learn that a town of that size has no public transport. However, I was told that they used to have a limited bus service, but it was scrapped because nobody used it. Now, admittedly, this came from the receptionist in the hotel I was staying in, so I’m open to correction.
In Dublin? You don’t use buses too often, do you?Buses running all day and only full between 8-9am and 5-6pm running rest of the day empty…
Source?…and at 3 miles per Gallon.
Trains can’t be turned off? Really?And then we have the trains which are left running all day and all night (they cant be turned off)....
Am I missing something here? Has a proposal for water charges been agreed? A number of posters seem to know (or are assuming) exactly what this charge will entail.KhanTheMan wrote: »If something is covered by your tax now and then you are charged again on top of this it is plainly double taxation.
How do you know that more is not required? What if the costs of water distribution are not currently being met?KhanTheMan wrote: »… when its pointed out to you that all of these charges are already covered in the tax we pay.0 -
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Is this where we have the conversation again about waste charges, and how some people have always had to pay them? This time we can add in the people on group schemes who have been paying for their water for years, as well as paying those same taxes which pay for the water others aren't paying directly for.KhanTheMan wrote: »If something is covered by your tax now and then you are charged again on top of this it is plainly double taxation.
From the perspective of simple logic, describing water charges as "double taxation" is nonsensical. If everyone pays water charges, then none of their existing taxes go to pay for water, which means they get used for other things.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »it makes more sense to remove annual motor tax and put all the tax on the fuel. Make it revenue neutral.
No more clogging up the courts or garda time with no tax summonses
At least someone is making sense here now.0 -
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Ever been inside the M50? It's much better in here. I think Dublin's main problem is how most activity is so concentrated on a few square kilometres in the centre. I live in Rathmines and I would describe my quality of life as very good.If only it were that simple. Most of my family just happens to live here. I don't really want to subject my children to life in Dublin. Urban sprawl, boxy apartments with no facilities or a house in the suburbs.
This negativity is beyond belief. Can you really think of no positive aspects of Dublin?Awful public transport, car dependency, the lowest % of tree coverage in Europe...I could go on. If I thought there was any point, I would stay and try and forge a career in sustainable development here but I'll probably end up somewhere in Europe where I have more than a snowball's chance in hell of having a good quality of life and a decent career (and a decent summer :pac:).
I suspect your tree cover figure is wrong. Ever heard of Phoenix park? The narrowness of most Dublin streets makes the kind of tree placement that is common on the continent impossible.
I won't try to defend public transport, over use of cars, etc. I just take offence at my home city being described in elaborate terms as some kind of unbearable sh!thole.
It's no facade. People do actually have fun here, and the casual humour that characterises daily encounters, seems relatively lacking on the continent. Strangers are generally not afraid to talk to each other here, which puts us a world apart from many of our European neighbours.The people have great personalities, great nightlife, etc. Loads of fun but I can't help but see how shallow the happy facade is and how rotten Irish society has become.
Another newsflash is that nearly all of western society has become rotten. Ireland does not have the level of broken marriages and families that is standard in most of Europe.
Source? You seem to rather obssess about phrases like "worst/lowest/highest/etc in Europe".we have one of the lowest levels of social welfare spending in Europe.
We have a serious homeless problem, yes. No one is doing anything about it, no. St Vincent de Paul, Threshold, Focus, Simon Community - do these names ring a bell? However I agree that the government does not care given the absolute mushrooming of this problem during the "boom" years. I can only blame the power of developers.We have a serious homeless problem that no one is doing anything about.We are stalling holding a Children's Rights Referendum. It's just plain wrong. I really wish I liked it here but I don't.
Inability to take criticism is a human trait. Have I given any impression that I'm an apologist for the government? Of course I see the political and social problems here. I also see the things that make Ireland a good place to live, which you don't. I also see that Irish people are not universally self-centred, and I work with plenty of people who are trying to make this country better.Edit: Just on your Scandinavian comment: classic case of Irish begrudgery and inability to take some criticism.
Familiarity breeds contempt. Seeing these things is a symptom of being a clueless tourist, not an Irish resident.Hello - I'm Irish. It doesn't mean all I see when I look at Ireland are rainbows, pots of gold and leprechauns prancing around.
And if we're to blame all citizens for their governments' flaws, very few Europeans have a leg to stand on. Germany especially comes to mind.In fact, many Europeans can't stand us and our environmental record and how we still go whinging to Brussels about our C02 cap.
We as a nation did not complain to Brussels. A tool called Bertie Ahern did, and it quickly became apparent to him that his complaints lacked public support.
People almost everywhere complain about taxes. Like us, they get on with it and just pay them anyway. We can surely agree that mistrust of Irish government financing is justified.Complaints over charges are usually accompanied by general dissatisfaction over Ireland's level of taxation. And I also suggested that this is linked to distrust of how the government is spending its money - which is altogether a different concern to whether or not we pay water charges.
I also used the world "greedy" because the main function of taxation is the redistribution of wealth. For a nation to have such an allergic reaction to taxes, in my mind suggests a rejection of the concept of the redistribution of wealth and/or distrust of government financing.0 -
In which case your knowledge of human psychology and European history are lacking.KhanTheMan, the whole point of this forum is to express an opinion on green issues. Believe it or not, the underlying values, attitudes, beliefs and behaviours of individuals are probably the biggest factors involved. So yes, I will express my opinion on these issues as I feel them to be very relevant.
For instance, you cannot expect Ireland to be socially similar to the continent.
1. We have a different culture to start with.
2. We were neither in the WW2 victory parade nor a beneficiary of the Marshall Plan - thus we were left behind by the 1960s economic booms. Only in the early 21st century did we get to the point Germany was in the 1970s. You can't expect there to be no difference in thirty years of social development.
3. The psychology is even more different. People are not just "greedy". They may be afraid, misinformed, etc etc.0 -
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Yes, everything is concentrated on the small area in the middle or in suburban centres like Sandyford and Blanchardstown. When I try to buy somewhere to live will I be able to afford to live in somewhere like Rathmines? Probably not. I don't like the idea of spending 3 hours/day commuting. And in other cities, I don't have to be rich to avoid the lengthy commute. Here, accessibility-rich areas are naturally more expensive locations property-wise and are the preserve of the more well-off.Ever been inside the M50? It's much better in here. I think Dublin's main problem is how most activity is so concentrated on a few square kilometres in the centre. I live in Rathmines and I would describe my quality of life as very good.
Sure I can..but we're talking environmental here, not nightlife, culture, people etc. What do you see as the environmental positives in Dublin? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I think I'm able to take a more objective look at things. I've also lived in six other countries so I know and have experienced how things are done elsewhere.This negativity is beyond belief. Can you really think of no positive aspects of Dublin?
I'm talking about Ireland in general:http://www.crann.ie/.I suspect your tree cover figure is wrong. Ever heard of Phoenix park? The narrowness of most Dublin streets makes the kind of tree placement that is common on the continent impossible.
Look at the statement at the top left of the screen.I actually think the level of trees in Dublin isn't that bad. (shock horror :pac:)
"If I'm posting in a forum on another issue, say cultural events, restaurants, etc I will naturally be more positive as Dublin has these things going for it. But this is an environmental forum and so there are more negatives to discuss. I don't go around all the other forums whinging about other stuff (em...except maybe agriculture...)I won't try to defend public transport, over use of cars, etc. I just take offence at my home city being described in elaborate terms as some kind of unbearable sh!thole.
I'm afraid I don't use divorce rates as an indicator of a rotten society. The late introduction of divorce in Ireland and our strong Catholic background are two influencing factors that have little to do with a society being "rotten". No, I prefer to look at more concrete indicators such as social welfare spending, poverty levels, homelessness, civil rights, children's rights, gender equality and our gini-coefficient.Another newsflash is that nearly all of western society has become rotten. Ireland does not have the level of broken marriages and families that is standard in most of Europe.
No I don't obsess over them. I use them because Ireland has a canny knack of always fitting into those positions and Europe is a good control by which to measure ourselves. It would be quite silly and pointless of me to compare us to South America.Source? You seem to rather obssess about phrases like "worst/lowest/highest/etc in Europe".
Thanks for the condescending remark but surprisingly enough, yes I have heard of them. You will note that they are all NGOs. It is the same in other areas, such as mental health: the NGO sector has to step in to fill the gap left by the lack of government services. I recommend reading this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Reach-Inequalites-Housing-System/dp/1904301886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223540842&sr=8-1) if you wish to learn more.We have a serious homeless problem, yes. No one is doing anything about it, no. St Vincent de Paul, Threshold, Focus, Simon Community - do these names ring a bell? However I agree that the government does not care given the absolute mushrooming of this problem during the "boom" years. I can only blame the power of developers.
Er...last time I checked with live in a democracy and as Taoiseach, Bertie was given a mandate by the people in the general election and so represents us. I understand what you're saying about not everyone agreeing with him but when the head of state goes to Europe to discuss something, he is representing us as a nation. I must have missed the public outcry to his attempts at lowering our obligations.We as a nation did not complain to Brussels. A tool called Bertie Ahern did, and it quickly became apparent to him that his complaints lacked public support.
Yes, I think you're right about the mistrust being justified!People almost everywhere complain about taxes. Like us, they get on with it and just pay them anyway. We can surely agree that mistrust of Irish government financing is justified.
With a degree in European Studies, specialising in European History, I can assure you this is not the case.In which case your knowledge of human psychology and European history are lacking.
Are you suggesting that Ireland is the only different culture among a culturally homogenous continent? This is certainly not true. Can you explain what it is about our culture that leave us inclined to be so dismissive of environmental issues? (please don't mention the famine..)1. We have a different culture to start with.
This is my take on it: everyone else developed economically before us. We could see what worked and what didn't work. Yet we plod along at about a 30 year deficit, as you say, and keep making the same mistakes. At the same time, all the politicians go on about how we are a "knowledge economy" and how clever we all are. Well I don't call that clever.2. We were neither in the WW2 victory parade nor a beneficiary of the Marshall Plan - thus we were left behind by the 1960s economic booms. Only in the early 21st century did we get to the point Germany was in the 1970s. You can't expect there to be no difference in thirty years of social development.
For example, in transport there has been a clear progression of theories on roads, starting at "predict and provide" through to "demand management". We have been following a similar policy to the US, with the "predict and provide" concept when transport strategists have know for years that traffic simply expands to fill the space provided. The widely accepted, best practice in transport strategy is "demand management", whereby attempts are made to reduce demand for private car use. It was only last year that the government took the decision not to increase road supply inside the M50. We are still spending the majority of our Transport 21 funds on building roads. And having worked in the DTO for a short time, I can tell you they feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall. In contrast, since the 1970s, the Netherlandands has had the policy of only increasing road supply "if the contribution to societal welfare is positive".
I like the way you said not just "greedy". Look, I've already accepted that my greedy comment was too harsh.3. The psychology is even more different. People are not just "greedy". They may be afraid, misinformed, etc etc.
Edit: eep, that is a long post0 -
A very interesting graph there, Canada's taxpayers are in for a real :eek: moment. The graph would indicate a flow of money to eastern european countries... rather hilariously Russia who seem to be supplying the offending substances.
Have we heard how the companies receiving the credits (presumably industrial companies) are getting on with their move into green energy research? Is it the Latvian equivalent of the ESB who are getting all the money? Will they be supplying the technologies to the developed world or is it just a boost to their profits in the absence of actual economic activity.
The governement paper is even more disheartening.At least €276 million will be invested in the sustainable energy sector over the period of the NDP
in support of the targets for sustainable energy including renewable energy, energy efficiency
and innovation. This investment will underpin the strategic goals for sustainable energy.
Wow! FF going for it big time there! If we can get 15% of our electricity for this investment why don't we go the whole hog... 100% for around 2 billion euro, less than the ESB are spending on there network
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Sorry for the double post, got called away before i finished.
Going back to your graph... I read this a few weeks ago:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/sep/24/renewable.wave.energy.portugalPinho wants Portugal to rival Denmark or Japan in its commitment to developing renewables industries – he predicts his country will generate 31% of all its primary energy from clean sources by 2020, compared with Britain's target of 15%. The Portuguese target means increasing the generation of electricity from renewable sources from 42% in 2005 to 60% in 2020.
How does that quote sit with the graph? Why do they think they can rival Japan and Denmark " in its commitment to developing renewables industries" when according to the graph these two are failing to meet their targets?
As for the Portuguese targets 42% of electricity by 2005... more than Ireland want to achieve by 2020?
Why does the Irish government's plan state:The objective is to deliver a sustainable energy future, starting now, with a time horizon of 2020
and then when you get to the detail, we get this gem...Actions to Ensure Security of Energy Supply
3.1.1. Security of energy supply is crucial for the economy and society. Security of supply requires that we have reliable access to oil and gas supplies and the infrastructure in place to import, distribute and to store gas and oil. We also need robust gas and electricity networks and
electricity generating capacity to ensure consistent supply to consumers and all sectors of the economy.
This implies to me, that we have bought electricity generating plants that use oil and gas and we are damn sure gonna use them.. regardless of the cost to the consumer because what are they gonna do? :mad:
As I said in my previous response though... what do we the consumers get from these taxes and levies?
- Kyoto, we pay Eastern European companies money to develop what exactly? Are they making any progress? When can we as a nation start implementing their discoveries?
- plastic bags, whilst I know we would rather carry items or roll the trolley out to the car and 'feck' evertything into the car boot than pay the 22c per bag. What has the "new Environmental Fund" used the money for? How is my planet benefitting from their action. How many minutes more will the planet survive because of our selfless actions?
-PRF, the clue is indeed in the name. How many fewer TV's have been produced? What are the components being 'recycled'? What are the 'recycled' compoonenets iused in? How many minutes more will the planet survive because of our selfless actions?
If there is no positive feedback on these additional costs, is it not natural for hard pressed taxpayers to assume the worst? That someone somewhere just a got a big payrise / profit boost whilst the planet is indeed no better off for the money taken from us?0 -
Those points are true. The problem I pointed out, that everything is concentrated in the centre, is the main reason for 3 hour commutes.Yes, everything is concentrated on the small area in the middle or in suburban centres like Sandyford and Blanchardstown. When I try to buy somewhere to live will I be able to afford to live in somewhere like Rathmines? Probably not. I don't like the idea of spending 3 hours/day commuting. And in other cities, I don't have to be rich to avoid the lengthy commute. Here, accessibility-rich areas are naturally more expensive locations property-wise and are the preserve of the more well-off.
You brought up these other topics.Sure I can..but we're talking environmental here, not nightlife, culture, people etc.
The Canals, green belts along the minor rivers, Phoenix and other parks, large number of urban gardens (most of which are not getting paved over), etc. However I do acknowledge that Dublin is comparitively behind exemplary cities like Copenhagen in these ways. I put it down to a nasty combination of special interest groups and lack of foresight in the midst of Celtic Tiger excitement.What do you see as the environmental positives in Dublin?
I don't see how that follows. People never have a 'rosy' view of the place where they live, and I'm no exception.I didn't grow up in Ireland so I think I'm able to take a more objective look at things.
OK. I agree entirely there... Ireland has a ridiculously low level of coverage. I blame the IFA.I'm talking about Ireland in general:http://www.crann.ie/.
Look at the statement at the top left of the screen.I actually think the level of trees in Dublin isn't that bad. (shock horror :pac:)
You"If I'm posting in a forum on another issue, say cultural events, restaurants, etc I will naturally be more positive as Dublin has these things going for it.
I do. Most people wish to stay married for life. Thus it's a social problem if large numbers of people are making the commitment and then find that they can't uphold it, and that's before even mentioning the problems it may cause to children. It's more "concrete" (nice vague word there) than social welfare spending. I was also not making the case that divorce rates should be used exclusively to measure the health of a society. But your refusal to even consider it is telling.I'm afraid I don't use divorce rates as an indicator of a rotten society.
I also find the Irish public resitance to militarism and anything that smacks of a military industrial complex to be appealing as compared to say Sweden, Germany or Britain.
I remain sceptical.No I don't obsess over them. I use them because Ireland has a canny knack of always fitting into those positions
I'm well aware of this, as I feel sick every time I'm asked to financially support a hospital run by the HSE, as if this is the domain of "charity".Thanks for the condescending remark but surprisingly enough, yes I have heard of them. You will note that they are all NGOs. It is the same in other areas, such as mental health: the NGO sector has to step in to fill the gap left by the lack of government services.
I found your dismissal of the efforts of the SVP, Simon, etc to be condescending. I doubt they would like to hear that they are doing nothing about the problem.
Evidently you did.I must have missed the public outcry to his attempts at lowering our obligations.
I am saying that Ireland's culture has been dominated of late with economic growth, much as the culture of most continental countries was in the 1960s. After that their cultures entered a post-materialist phase, which Ireland has not (yet?). Were the Netherlands or Germany exemplary in their environmental practices in their early post-war boom years? Could they not have learned more from the Americans who had gone through the same before hand?Are you suggesting that Ireland is the only different culture among a culturally homogenous continent? This is certainly not true. Can you explain what it is about our culture that leave us inclined to be so dismissive of environmental issues?
You're right there. Humans, not just Irish people, have a great capacity to learn from others, but also an unfortunate inclination to ignore this learning.This is my take on it: everyone else developed economically before us. We could see what worked and what didn't work. Yet we plod along at about a 30 year deficit, as you say, and keep making the same mistakes.
You're quite right here. That Dutch regulation you cite is a typically post-materialist consideration. However, motorways are not made primarily for private cars, but for freight trucks.For example, in transport there has been a clear progression of theories on roads, starting at "predict and provide" through to "demand management". We have been following a similar policy to the US, with the "predict and provide" concept when transport strategists have know for years that traffic simply expands to fill the space provided. The widely accepted, best practice in transport strategy is "demand management", whereby attempts are made to reduce demand for private car use.
It was only last year that the government took the decision not to increase road supply inside the M50. We are still spending the majority of our Transport 21 funds on building roads. And having worked in the DTO for a short time, I can tell you they feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall. In contrast, since the 1970s, the Netherlandands has had the policy of only increasing road supply "if the contribution to societal welfare is positive".
Again, a human thing. Irish people are humans, thus some of them are motivated by greed.I like the way you said not just "greedy".0 -
What do you see as the environmental positives in Dublin?
I was doing an audit of Teagasc a few months back and I was amazed to see they had cows grazing within Dublin city limits. Never seen that in Glasgow where I used to live.
I'd say Dublin has a fairly good ratio of green space, though I have never lived out in the 'burbs', so I can't comment on them.0 -
I was doing an audit of Teagasc a few months back and I was amazed to see they had cows grazing within Dublin city limits. Never seen that in Glasgow where I used to live.
I'd say Dublin has a fairly good ratio of green space, though I have never lived out in the 'burbs', so I can't comment on them.
Yes, it's funny how you see sheep and cows grazing out in the undeveloped fields in the industrial estates near the M50! The IFA gets everywhere don't they.0 -
Yes, it's funny how you see sheep and cows grazing out in the undeveloped fields in the industrial estates near the M50! The IFA gets everywhere don't they.
Not at all surprised by such findings, when one considers there are a number of sub-urbs where horses graze in Parlours and front gardens!0 -
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