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People jaded by 'Green' issues
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You think that was a bad idea?
Encourages recycling and reduces waste - again, not a bad idea (in my opinion).
We'll have to wait and see about that one. Again, I wouldn't be totally opposed to it, in principle.
Motor/road tax has been charged as long as I can remember.
No, that's a disposal charge, not a tax.
Theres just no arguing with the blind.
You just dont get my point at all. For example, Look up the new motor tax regime will you.
My point - All sticks in the name of the environment. Remember the money back on bottles .... Carrot.0 -
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You have an incredibly short memory. First of all, air travel has only existed for the last 100 years. And air travel that is affordable to the masses has only existed for the last c.30 years. (Ryanair was set up in 1985). Expensive air travel is the norm, not cheap air travel.
PhD here
Air travel like everything else is just more affordable than it used to be now. So affordable that it is ripe for the piking as far as taxing is concerned.
Cheap air travel is actually the norm now, unless you havent noticed that Ryanair arent the only airline and that you can get to New York for a day or two wages. Been like that for a few years now too. I dont see this changeing ever - just the govts adding taxes now and again in the name of the environment. Just enough to bleed you up but not stop you flying.
Kind of like the tax on fags. They bleed people up so the take is higher but its not quite enough to make people give up smoking. If they really wanted people to stop smoking (like they should want) they should put the fags up by €50 or ban them altogether. So they go to the black economy, so what. Make the sentances for selling them so high that the risks of selling is huge, therefore the price charged is greater. So is Heroin and Cocaine sold on the black market and not nearly the same amount of people buy those as fags. End result a lot less people living longer lives than there are now, but wait ... Tax take down, no good.0 -
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OscarBravo Ive read your passionate postings about how you saved the world from the Y2K bug ...now do you seriously think weve forgotten all the PC experts who charged a fortune to put 'Y2K safe' stickers on gullible companies computers.
I was actually one of those saviours . And i can tell you that while there was the odd serious bug it was so over hyped on purpose you wouldnt believe it. We made an absolute fortune out of it. Cobol programmers were brought in from the cold on £800 a day in 1999 when they were left on the sidelines years before.
We even sent out what we called scaresmen to clients to talk up the millenium bug. It was so well orchestrated that friends of clients were ringing us up begging for us to make them Y2K compliant. We had to bring in programmers from India and hire students whose only jobs were to go through code to find "DD/MM/YY" day in day out, just so we could print it out and send the scaresmen back to the clients. Then we would look at it and go "no problem", but charge to fix it anyway. We got £2000 a man (12 clients fell for it) for having people sit in the office of clients that night.
It was such a turkey shoot. The biggest con in History.0 -
Oh great, take something I said about one thing, apply it to something completely different. Great logic there...oh wait..tacconnol are you actually saying that you expect us to just stop travelling by air as the prices are hiked sky high by eco levies because our great grandparents couldnt afford to?!Same attitude to other luxuries like cars (of course I hardly need ask!)health care and oh yeah education ???
Anyway, on the air travel: basically yes. Boohoo. Is everyone going to go cry into their cappuccinos like the spoilt selfish, materialistic Westerners they are? Or are they going to cop on and realise that some things are more important in life than being able to fly to Europe 4 times a year. Oh another thing I forgot to point out: most humans in this world have never, and will never be on a plane. So fliying is most definitely not the norm, on a global level. You have a very West-centric way of looking at things.KhanTheMan wrote: »PhD here
Air travel like everything else is just more affordable than it used to be now. So affordable that it is ripe for the piking as far as taxing is concerned.
Cheap air travel is actually the norm now, unless you havent noticed that Ryanair arent the only airline and that you can get to New York for a day or two wages. Been like that for a few years now too. I dont see this changeing ever - just the govts adding taxes now and again in the name of the environment. Just enough to bleed you up but not stop you flying.
Kind of like the tax on fags. They bleed people up so the take is higher but its not quite enough to make people give up smoking. If they really wanted people to stop smoking (like they should want) they should put the fags up by €50 or ban them altogether. So they go to the black economy, so what. Make the sentances for selling them so high that the risks of selling is huge, therefore the price charged is greater. So is Heroin and Cocaine sold on the black market and not nearly the same amount of people buy those as fags. End result a lot less people living longer lives than there are now, but wait ... Tax take down, no good.
I am aware that Ryanair is not the only airline that flies cheaply (btw, they don't go to NY but I take your point). I'm glad you pointed out that cheap air travel is the norm now. Because it sure ain't going to be like that in the future. Airline's fuel bills have doubled. Has anyone noticed the fule surcharges over €75 one way to New York? And this nothing to do with taxes. This is the simple market mechanism of supply and demand in action.
I'm not sure I understand your drug analogy or what it has to do with the environment...0 -
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Anyway, on the air travel: basically yes. Boohoo. Is everyone going to go cry into their cappuccinos like the spoilt selfish, materialistic Westerners they are? Or are they going to cop on and realise that some things are more important in life than being able to fly to Europe 4 times a year. Oh another thing I forgot to point out: most humans in this world have never, and will never be on a plane. So fliying is most definitely not the norm, on a global level. You have a very West-centric way of looking at things.
Sorry, i didnt mean to sound like a grouch in the last post.
On the flights.
Go to Europe 4 times a year - About €200 or less for the 4 trips.
Double that price. Europe 4 times a year for €400 or less. Still happy and still going to Europe.
Even Double it again and im still going
Flying is definitely the norm here. Show me someone in Ireland who hasnt been on a plane. Slim Pickings. If i asked that question 20 years ago you could have pointed to most people. So it wasnt the norm 20 years ago.I am aware that Ryanair is not the only airline that flies cheaply (btw, they don't go to NY but I take your point). I'm glad you pointed out that cheap air travel is the norm now. Because it sure ain't going to be like that in the future. Airline's fuel bills have doubled. Has anyone noticed the fule surcharges over €75 one way to New York? And this nothing to do with taxes. This is the simple market mechanism of supply and demand in action.
People fly a lot. Its the norm now. Hell i flew to Gatwick last week to meet my brother for a pint in the Airport and came home. The first round cost me more than the trip. Flights Cost me €10.02 return . And €10 was a credit card charge. He's coming over to me for pint in 2 weeks and paying a similar amount. How is that going to stop. Sure if all our cars run on hydro generated electricity there will be no demand for Oil. Airlines can then buy it for nothing and flying is sooooo cheap then anyway.
A €75 each way fuel charge on a trip to New York at the prices those flights are now is not going to hurt anyone.
There is a thread in Bargain alerts with Flights to NY and LA for less than €350 return all in.
It was more of a tax and ciggy analogy.I'm not sure I understand your drug analogy or what it has to do with the environment...0 -
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KhanTheMan wrote: »Sorry, i didnt mean to sound like a grouch in the last post.
On the flights.
Go to Europe 4 times a year - About €200 or less for the 4 trips.
Double that price. Europe 4 times a year for €400 or less. Still happy and still going to Europe.
Even Double it again and im still going
Now add on a carbon tax
. Look apart from the whole incentive/deterrant thing, there is another logic for carbon, or more generally, pollution taxation.
When carbon is released into the air, this is a form of pollution. There is an actual price on removing that pollution from the atmosphere. At the moment, that cost is externalised to the rest of society (the government, ie taxpayers, having to put aside money to buy credits in order to offset emissions). With a carbon tax, this cost is instead internalised so that the person who emits the carbon pays, ie the "polluter pays" (fundamental EU environmental principle, adopted in the 1970s).
Your cigarette analogy is not the same because this is purely about raising revenue, although it could be argued that people who smoke cigarettes can be very expensive to the state (ie taxpayer) through their medical care. In addition, cigarette butts are the most common form of street sweepings. So why are taxpayers cleaning up after cigarette-smokers? With high taxes on cigarettes, at least they are contributing to the additional costs that they push onto the rest of society.KhanTheMan wrote: »Flying is definitely the norm here. Show me someone in Ireland who hasnt been on a plane. Slim Pickings. If i asked that question 20 years ago you could have pointed to most people. So it wasnt the norm 20 years ago.
People fly a lot. Its the norm now. Hell i flew to Gatwick last week to meet my brother for a pint in the Airport and came home. The first round cost me more than the trip. Flights Cost me €10.02 return . And €10 was a credit card charge. He's coming over to me for pint in 2 weeks and paying a similar amount. How is that going to stop. Sure if all our cars run on hydro generated electricity there will be no demand for Oil. Airlines can then buy it for nothing and flying is sooooo cheap then anyway.
A €75 each way fuel charge on a trip to New York at the prices those flights are now is not going to hurt anyone.
There is a thread in Bargain alerts with Flights to NY and LA for less than €350 return all in.
Yes, you keep saying that flying is the norm now. I know that. My point is that it will not be the norm in the future. Those cheap, cheap Ryanair flights? That's grand but Michael O'Leary is hoping, at best, to break even by the end of the year. It's for show, a gimmick. Did you see the recent Aerlingus report? They have lost €22.3 million so far this year and there are 4 months to go. Reason? Fuel costs. They're either going to have to up their prices or go bust. Simple as.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f9a3fb24-7502-11dd-ab30-0000779fd18c.html
Wtih other countries trying to achieve the same "quality of life" as the West, there is a huge increase in demand, and supply is not keeping up. Of course, there is the added effect of speculation, but the underlying trend is inevitable.0 -
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