Trainerroad

Irish Raven · 30-01-2018 12:32pm

so if done on a smart trainer....keep in the same gear and allow trainerroad to control??

bp_me · 30-01-2018 12:35pm

Irish Raven wrote: »

so if done on a smart trainer....keep in the same gear and allow trainerroad to control??

I use a tacx flux and find that certain gears will allow it to maintain a closer correlation to the target power for a given target power request.

Irish Raven · 30-01-2018 12:50pm

yeah I use a tacx bushido, and find when the power goes up, gears can allow it to be a more normal feel...

interested to see does anyone do it or vo2 workouts, without changing gears on erg mode...

Macy0161 · 30-01-2018 12:53pm

joey100 wrote: »

I know you say it's disappointing that the ramp test gave you a lower number than the 20 min tests but is it not better to be working off proper zones based on the right number rather than zones based off a higher number? It's the main reason I don't like the way it's called a 'test'. The aim of it is not to get as big a number as you can, you only have to look at the 20 min test history on trainer road to see how many fudge the 5 min clearing effort so they can have a higher 20min average and so a higher FTP. The aim of it is to work out your training zones. I do take that you were tired and not going in fresh, and I'm not having a go at you Macy it's just I've seen a lot of people disappointed when they get a number lower than planned.

I'm completeing the workouts based on the FTP based on 20 minute test on target power, so won't be lowering it based on the ramp test (which is still only under testing by TR, not rolled out).

I was kinda hoping I'd undershot on the 20 minute test, and that's where my disappointment has come from. Pure ego! And I'm not really sure what I was thinking wanting higher numbers before tonights VO2 max intervals really on reflection!

bp_me · 30-01-2018 12:53pm

Irish Raven wrote: »

yeah I use a tacx bushido, and find when the power goes up, gears can allow it to be a more normal feel...

interested to see does anyone do it or vo2 workouts, without changing gears on erg mode...

Not exactly what I mean...

If you have a look at this graph the only difference between the "noisey" and "smoother" intervals is finding the right gear

doozerie · 31-01-2018 11:24pm

Irish Raven wrote: »

yeah I use a tacx bushido, and find when the power goes up, gears can allow it to be a more normal feel...

interested to see does anyone do it or vo2 workouts, without changing gears on erg mode...

If using erg mode then changing gears isn't necessary at all since the resistance remains consistent (or tries to, at least) regardless of which gear you are in. To change the feel you can increase or decrease cadence, same effect as changing gear basically.

JimmiesRustled · 01-02-2018 10:07am

doozerie wrote: »

If using erg mode then changing gears isn't necessary at all since the resistance remains consistent (or tries to, at least) regardless of which gear you are in. To change the feel you can increase or decrease cadence, same effect as changing gear basically.

I've never seen it where you've to shift up to hit target wattage but I do know some trainers mechanical limit is lower than that of others. With some trainers, during a recovery period, you may need to shift into an easier gear in order to better hit the wattage target. I think it's called the wattage floor.

Paul_Mc1988 · 01-02-2018 10:27am

JimmiesRustled wrote:

I've never seen it where you've to shift up to hit target wattage but I do know some trainers mechanical limit is lower than that of others. With some trainers, during a recovery period, you may need to shift into an easier gear in order to better hit the wattage target. I think it's called the wattage floor.

I've encountered this when 80 watts is required of the turbo. I always keep my chainline straight and dont shift in erg mode. So when its trying to set the trainer to hold 80 watts i put out 100 as this is the wattage floor on mine.

doozerie · 01-02-2018 11:50am

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

I've never seen it where you've to shift up to hit target wattage but I do know some trainers mechanical limit is lower than that of others. With some trainers, during a recovery period, you may need to shift into an easier gear in order to better hit the wattage target. I think it's called the wattage floor.

Ah right, that makes sense alright. I've read about the wattage floor in the past but haven't encountered it, but whether it arises does seem to depend on the trainer itself amongst other things.

JimmiesRustled · 07-02-2018 11:50am

Just a quick update on the Ramp test. Managed to get a standard FTP test in last week and a ramp test last night. Seem to be bang on. FTP was coming out at 300 watts on the standard test and 303 on the Ramp test. This is purely anecdotal and I wouldn't use it as proof of the accuracy of the test but for me it seems to have worked. Now to be honest being on a dumb trainer made the Ramp test pretty difficult and I had advised against doing it on a dumb trainer here before but I seem to have been able to keep power pretty steady and within about 2-3 watts of the target throughout each step. Each step was over or on average target power.

Macy0161 · 07-02-2018 2:42pm

Tempted to try the ramp test as the clearing effort for the 20 minute test due in a couple of weeks? Just spin through the clearing effort in the test work out, or would the ramp test have me just too fecked?

Chumpski · 07-02-2018 2:52pm

Not sure, if you try it, let us know how it went. Ill wait till it becomes official. Even at that, ill probably wait till end of season.

By the way, the trainerroad podcast is brilliant. They talk about so much, including training, plans, nutrition and race tactics.

JimmiesRustled · 07-02-2018 3:09pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Tempted to try the ramp test as the clearing effort for the 20 minute test due in a couple of weeks? Just spin through the clearing effort in the test work out, or would the ramp test have me just too fecked?

Ramp test had me in a heap after. Similar type of test to the lactate and vo2 testing they do in trinity in terms of a workout. The test in trinity is set to 3 minute steps as opposed to 1 minute on TR. If you do it properly I can’t imagine having the will or power to get through anything but recovery/endurance.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 2:06pm

On a recovery week, so another go at the ramp test next week.

Saturday's workout did have me thinking again about a smart turbo v power meter. I was going to get a power meter, but realistically, most of my training is going to be done inside for the foreseeable. So bar giving me data afterwards from outside rides, rather than dictating the spins, does a power meter still trump a smart turbo?

bp_me · 12-03-2018 3:21pm

Most smart trainers don't have a power meter built in. In my experience tacx flux under reads about 10w up to 200w after which it's accurate. Tacx vortex is down about 10% everywhere.

joey100 · 12-03-2018 3:29pm

I've found the kickr (version 1) to read high. I use a power2max power meter with it. Honestly I don't use the smart trainers features enough, I got a little bored of zwift and find trainer road better for training. I haven't really used erg mode either, not out of any decision or any thinking on it, I just do the sessions as they come up and do my best to hit the numbers. If it were me I'd be buying a power meter, you can use that outside too and we race outside (mostly!). Power meter gives you power data inside and out, smart trainer will give you power data inside and some extra features but no power outside.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 3:45pm

joey100 wrote: »

Most smart trainers don't have a power meter built in. In my experience tacx flux under reads about 10w up to 200w after which it's accurate. Tacx vortex is down about 10% everywhere.

I'm not too bothered once it's consistent really.

joey100 wrote: »

If it were me I'd be buying a power meter, you can use that outside too and we race outside (mostly!). Power meter gives you power data inside and out, smart trainer will give you power data inside and some extra features but no power outside.

Well that was my original thinking, but my head is getting a bit fried left side v total v dual, and compatibility between bikes (and cost of pedal options).

It was actually for erg mode that I thought a smart turbo would be an advantage, as I'm finding gear selection a pain in the arse to hit suggested cadence targets, especially during microburst sets.

I guess my thinking was along the lines I'll get power data outside, but what am I actually going to do with that data?

joey100 · 12-03-2018 4:01pm

I wouldn't say there is any one fits all solution, it's going to be down to your individual situation, budget and goals.

I'm not sure erg mode will help during micro bursts, would the turbo be quick enough responding before the end of the interval, I've never used it but if it responds like it does on zwift it takes a few seconds to catch up with the change in gradient. Something to look into anyway.

Chumpski · 12-03-2018 4:08pm

I find ERG mode helpful during the microbursts so i dont go too hard and fry myself too early.

Im on a Tacx Neo. It does take a couple of seconds to catch up and hit the power target and for microbursts the overall power target you hit will be lower when you finish each burst. For me im usually 30 watts under. But i figure thats better than being way over for a set and then not being able to do the rest.

jamesd · 12-03-2018 4:08pm

joey100 wrote: »

I wouldn't say there is any one fits all solution, it's going to be down to your individual situation, budget and goals.

I'm not sure erg mode will help during micro bursts, would the turbo be quick enough responding before the end of the interval, I've never used it but if it responds like it does on zwift it takes a few seconds to catch up with the change in gradient. Something to look into anyway.

Find my vortex slow to respond for the bursts.

Macy0161 · 12-03-2018 4:17pm

Thanks all - food for thought (and more inaction!

)

bp_me · 12-03-2018 4:47pm

For trainers that are slow in ERG mode you probably have smoothing set in the software doing the control.

Irish Raven · 12-03-2018 5:07pm

I have a smart turbo...tacx bushido....the so called wattage vampire!! and i have power meter pedals. when using turbo I train in erg mode, its perfect...only difference is the numbers...I have a turbo ftp...and a road ftp....smart trainer reads up to 60watts less of a difference to the vectors...so i train with the turbo ftp and its consistent...thats whats key...is consistancy....if your aim is to use structure on turbo trainer....a smart turbo is all you need....

doozerie · 12-03-2018 11:34pm

I prefer training by power rather than heart rate, I train to the numbers so I ideally want consistency of power measurement for every session, I favour turbo sessions in erg mode, and as much as I dislike FTP tests outdoors I dislike them even more on the turbo, all of which dictate my choice of training tools below.

So, the options I’d look at personally, from most to least preferred:

1) A reliable power meter on my bike (and preferably one that measures both legs independently) that I can use both outdoors and on the turbo, for “guaranteed” consistency of power measures across all sessions. Do an outdoor FTP test, choose a slightly lower FTP for indoor sessions. Use erg mode on the turbo, based on power measured from the power meter. Masochistically happy.

2) A power meter on bike for outdoors, a trustworthy measure of power built into the turbo. As above, do outdoor FTP test, derive (lower) indoor FTP from that. Use erg mode on the turbo, based on its own power measurement. Masochistically content.

3) A trustworthy measure of power built into the turbo. Do an indoor FTP test, from that derive my training heart rate zones and train to those for outdoor sessions. Use erg mode on the turbo. Not happy.

4) A non-smart turbo, use TrainerRoad to measure virtual power (so pick a turbo which they describe as “accurate”). Indoor FTP test, derive heart rate training zones from that for outdoor sessions. No erg mode. Very sad.

5) Sell/burn bikes. Buy lots of Haagen-Daz Belgian Chocolate ice-cream and a big TV. Death by chocolate. Messy but glorious.

doozerie · 12-03-2018 11:40pm

Chumpski wrote: »

Im on a Tacx Neo. It does take a couple of seconds to catch up and hit the power target...

This behaviour probably varies according to the software you use to control erg mode but on TrainerRoad it ramps up the resistance in the 2 or 3 seconds before the interval. So you get the appropriate resistance for the full interval - well, almost the full interval, it ramps it back down again for the last 2 or 3 seconds.

That gives you the chance to adjust your cadence (and it the chance to adjust the resistance in response) before the interval starts, should you want to.

Chumpski · 13-03-2018 12:28am

doozerie wrote: »

This behaviour probably varies according to the software you use to control erg mode but on TrainerRoad it ramps up the resistance in the 2 or 3 seconds before the interval. So you get the appropriate resistance for the full interval - well, almost the full interval, it ramps it back down again for the last 2 or 3 seconds.

That gives you the chance to adjust your cadence (and it the chance to adjust the resistance in response) before the interval starts, should you want to.

Yep, for microbursts though, typically 15 seconds, I mean that there isn’t a chance for the power to average out in such a way so you hit the power target exactly as ERG mode seems to keep you near target rather than compensating for the first few seconds building up.

Am I mis understanding you? Maybe. I’m not sure it’s possible to hit power target dead on for those really short intervals.

doozerie · 13-03-2018 9:30am

Chumpski wrote: »

Yep, for microbursts though, typically 15 seconds, I mean that there isn’t a chance for the power to average out in such a way so you hit the power target exactly as ERG mode seems to keep you near target rather than compensating for the first few seconds building up.

Am I mis understanding you? Maybe. I’m not sure it’s possible to hit power target dead on for those really short intervals.

Yeah, I think microbursts are a challenge for erg mode and realistically I don't think it's possible to match and maintain the target power exactly for such a short effort.

I don't see that as a problem though, certainly for any of the sessions that I do such short bursts are always either a sprint or a high cadence burst. In either case, and particularly with a sprint, you'll always produce a spike(s) or maybe a sloped line rather than a flat line in terms of power output, erg mode or not, and I think there is no need as such to try to achieve a flat line.

Erg mode is a funny one when it comes to sprints, set the target power too low and you'll spin out, set it too high and you could almost grind to a halt. It took me a few attempts before I settled on target power figures that put me somewhere in the middle where it felt like the mix of cadence and resistance was about "right" i.e. felt more like I'd expect a sprint on the road to feel.

Macy0161 · 13-03-2018 10:01am

Thanks all. With the micro bursts, and even the short sprint intervals it's more the recoveries that I was really struggling with for the cadence - Chad was telling me to maintain leg speed in the valleys, but I just couldn't do the gear changes in the time frame. I think I could/ should reduce the power smoothing for those workouts too, as I feel that probably lead to me overshooting at the start of bursts too.

Anyway, probably back to plan A of a power meter, given that it's one or the other really (unless the price of power meters and smart direct drive both continue their current price drops!).

Chumpski · 13-03-2018 10:19am

Id bet its a hell of alot easier to do such workouts with erg mode aiding you. Its pretty much training with your brain off, forget about gear and resistance, just hit your cadence target. I love erg mode for that.

Macy0161 · 13-03-2018 10:32am

Chumpski wrote: »

Id bet its a hell of alot easier to do such workouts with erg mode aiding you. Its pretty much training with your brain off, forget about gear and resistance, just hit your cadence target. I love erg mode for that.

Yeah, well that's where my thought process was going as well. But on reflection I think someone did ask the question on a recent enough TrainerRoad podcast (with the very same turbo I have) and they went power meter over turbo upgrade.

joey100 · 13-03-2018 10:45am

On a recent podcast they recommended not using erg mode for all your workouts too, that it was good for you to figure out what it felt like to put out the required power using different cadences and efforts, that in a way erg mode can hide what it actually feels like to put out the power because you can turn off your brain and the turbo will alter the resistance to make sure you hold the power.

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:06pm

As I'm unable to do road atm but I'm still aiming to make the W200 so looking to do the 8 week Climbing Road Race (low volume) + an endurance weekend spin.

It will be interesting to train for the W200 Alonso exclusively indoors!

bp_me · 14-03-2018 9:14pm

dahat wrote: »

As I'm unable to do road atm but I'm still aiming to make the W200 so looking to do the 8 week Climbing Road Race (low volume) + an endurance weekend spin.

It will be interesting to train for the W200 Alonso exclusively indoors!

What about the century plan?

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:27pm

bp_me wrote: »

What about the century plan?

Looks a decent plan but as I'm sort of hoping to train for a return to racing I'd wonder if the century plan would be suitable?

I need to train for W200 while maintaining race level training as best I manage.

bp_me · 14-03-2018 9:29pm

dahat wrote: »

Looks a decent plan but as I'm sort of hoping to train for a return to racing I'd wonder if the century plan would be suitable?

I need to train for W200 while maintaining race level training as best I manage.

Makes sense. In that case I'ld be inclined just to keep going for the race training at the highest volume I could tolerate and just drop W200 into it at a sensible intensity level on the day. Of course having not done the event then maybe Im under-estimating it.

dahat · 14-03-2018 9:34pm

bp_me wrote: »

Makes sense. In that case I'ld be inclined just to keep going for the race training at the highest volume I could tolerate and just drop W200 into it at a sensible intensity level on the day. Of course having not done the event then maybe Im under-estimating it.

Having done it last year off race fitness(A4 level) alone with no specific W200 training I'm hoping that the CRR plan + 1 endurance spin will get me to a certain level.
It will be an interesting experiment as the earliest ill be back on the road is end of April.

Macy0161 · 20-03-2018 10:51am

Did the ramp test again last night - dropped the power smoothing to 1 second and tried to undershoot on the way up. Haven't had the official post, but going on the 0.76 of max minute it's exactly the FTP I was working to already, but much better than the results I got the previous two times (in terms of test result v FTP I was working to fine already).

On the one hand, I'm still don't think it's ideal with a dumb/ non smart trainer. Gear selection was definitely an issue rather than just hold it consistent I think. But at the same time, I was definitely not as fresh as I would've needed to be to do a decent 20 minute test. I just did a half hour workout afterwards (volunteer), but I am also thinking a longer warm up first might help me too (a dialled down taku, or just a freeride).

dahat · 20-03-2018 8:52pm

With regards to VO2 intervals, are the TrainerRoad guidelines of 100rpm plus correct for these intervals?
I'm personally finding 100rpm plus though and always have tbh especially over 3 min intervals.

JimmiesRustled · 20-03-2018 10:49pm

dahat wrote: »

With regards to VO2 intervals, are the TrainerRoad guidelines of 100rpm plus correct for these intervals?
I'm personally finding 100rpm plus though and always have tbh especially over 3 min intervals.

For VO2 intervals id stick with whatever is comfortable between 85-105 rpm. Increasing cadence taxes your cardiovasucular system more which for most is desirable.

VO2 max intervals should be all about training power at whatever cadence is comfortable. Use the enndurance/recovery workouts or even sweetspot workouts to try and get used to a higher cadence if that makes sense.

dahat · 27-03-2018 10:50pm

Is there a way to import the workout to a Garmin 520?

Chumpski · 27-03-2018 11:01pm

Hmm. Don't think so.

Maybe by other means you could copy the structure of a trainer road workout to a connectq store app that shows intervals??

dahat · 27-03-2018 11:04pm

Chumpski wrote: »

Hmm. Don't think so.

Maybe by other means you could copy the structure of a trainer road workout to a connectq store app that shows intervals??

Possibly so or created the workout on Garmin site but surely there is a less time consuming way?

Chumpski · 27-03-2018 11:06pm

Sorry don't think its easy.

I did hear on the podcast they considered it and even had a prototype for an official garmin app but they said it felt dangerous having to look down at the computer so much.

dahat · 27-03-2018 11:17pm

Chumpski wrote: »

Sorry don't think its easy.

I did hear on the podcast they considered it and even had a prototype for an official garmin app but they said it felt dangerous having to look down at the computer so much.

Probably makes sense that.

bp_me · 28-03-2018 7:22am

dahat wrote: »

Possibly so or created the workout on Garmin site but surely there is a less time consuming way?

Mount your phone on handle bars and run the workout. Assuming you have a bt power meter or don't care if the phone doesn't record the workout.

Macy0161 · 28-03-2018 7:59am

bp_me wrote: »

Mount your phone on handle bars and run the workout. Assuming you have a bt power meter or don't care if the phone doesn't record the workout.

Or OTG cable and your usual ant+ dongle. OTG cables a couple of quid on ebay, even from Irish located suppliers.

Chumpski wrote:

I did hear on the podcast they considered it and even had a prototype for an official garmin app but they said it felt dangerous having to look down at the computer so much.

But yet in recent podcasts, particularly regarding beta testing, they've recommended mobile over desktop. Can't be much difference trying to follow on a handlebar mounted phone and and handlebar mounted bike computer?

bp_me · 28-03-2018 9:04am

Macy0161 wrote: »

But yet in recent podcasts, particularly regarding beta testing, they've recommended mobile over desktop. Can't be much difference trying to follow on a handlebar mounted phone and and handlebar mounted bike computer?

Not much risk on a stationary trainer

Macy0161 · 28-03-2018 10:12am

bp_me wrote: »

Not much risk on a stationary trainer

Ah, I get it now. I only really do structured training indoors (I did try following a workout outside last year, manually created in Connect, but it didn't really work for me between wind, gradient, traffic etc.. Better than an aimless spin, but... I couldn't really pick my roads though as I was fitting it whilst waiting on the children.

dahat · 30-03-2018 9:05am

As i'm about to finish Sweet Spot Base i'm in two minds as to what plan to follow next up.

My aims are A3 racing plus the W200 so it's one of Sustained Power or General Build for the 8 week block.

Any suggestions? I'm not a climber by any means so i'll need to be able to hold power to get over digs with short bursts of power needed also

bp_me · 30-03-2018 9:10am

There's relatively little difference in form between the the two build plans.

You could also consider the full distance triathlon plan though it's definitely not as 'peaky' as the other two.

Trainerroad

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