Hate crime? Really?

grindle · 12-04-2019 6:14pm

is_that_so wrote: »

OUP don't define how we have drafted the laws we use and we don't have a whole lot in the way of hate crime legislation, just in the area of discrimination.

Whether an Irish court labels it a hate crime is irrelevant to whether or not it's a crime caused by prejudice (people were arguing over linguistic and legal semantics), having those terms defined on our own books is only a means towards doling out heavier sentences. It was an assault committed based on a prejudice against the victim.
Hate + Crime = ...

I'd certainly expect a use of force if somebody had just leapfrogged me and sneered at me when walking past again like these knackbags did. She wasn't scared for no reason, she quite reasonably expected a further demonstration of scumbaggery which does tick the box for assault after having been explicitly intimidated.

12-04-2019 6:17pm

recedite wrote: »

Its not assault, no.

Grindle articulates this better than I can:

grindle wrote: »

I'd certainly expect a use of force if somebody had just leapfrogged me and sneered at me when walking past again like these knackbags did. She wasn't scared for no reason, she quite reasonably expected a further demonstration of scumbaggery which does tick the box for assault after having been explicitly intimidated.

It was definitely assault. Hard to believe anyone would argue otherwise.

the_syco · 12-04-2019 6:28pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Who cares if it is a hate crime or not. Only thing i care about is catching the idiots who demeaned her. As another poster said this thread is what you got out of that story. Have a word with yourself.

A man was left in a vegetative state after being run over by a scrambler bike in a Dublin park. Pretty sure that the driver got away scot free as they were under 18, and thus not worth the Gardai time looking for them, as they'd get away with no punishment if caught?

How about we build young offenders facilities to imprison those who attack people with physical violence, before spending money on trying to change the young offenders with words?

the_syco · 12-04-2019 6:30pm

grindle wrote: »

Whether an Irish court labels it a hate crime is irrelevant to whether or not it's a crime caused by prejudice (people were arguing over linguistic and legal semantics), having those terms defined on our own books is only a means towards doling out heavier sentences. It was an assault committed based on a prejudice against the victim.
Hate + Crime = ...

I'd certainly expect a use of force if somebody had just leapfrogged me and sneered at me when walking past again like these knackbags did. She wasn't scared for no reason, she quite reasonably expected a further demonstration of scumbaggery which does tick the box for assault after having been explicitly intimidated.

If under 18, any crime = not prison.
If over 18, hate crime = possible prison, unless you're from a bad area, then it's possible mandatory free counselling for the bully, and nothing for the victim.

Ken. · 12-04-2019 6:34pm

Mod- Locked for a clean up and some bans for dicks who think its funny to take the p!ss out of a disabled person.

Ken. · 12-04-2019 6:45pm

Mod- The following people are thread banned along with their other sanctions.

Your Face
Fr_Dougal
jimgoose
Hector Savage

Thread reopened. Anymore jokes will be dealt with harshly.

is_that_so · 12-04-2019 6:47pm

grindle wrote: »

Whether an Irish court labels it a hate crime is irrelevant to whether or not it's a crime caused by prejudice (people were arguing over linguistic and legal semantics), having those terms defined on our own books is only a means towards doling out heavier sentences. It was an assault committed based on a prejudice against the victim.
Hate + Crime = ..

It's relevant as we don't really have a law to apply, just legislation in the area of discrimination. Anti-social legislation is the way to go with what seems to be very young individuals.

grindle · 12-04-2019 6:57pm

is_that_so wrote: »

It's relevant as we don't really have a law to apply, just legislation in the area of discrimination. Anti-social legislation is the way to go with what seems to be very young individuals.

We don't have a law to apply to specifically nab them for a hate crime, but our laws would have them pegged for assault and reckless endangerment.
The fact that we haven't got "Hate Crime" shoved into our statutes with it's own heading in a sub-section doesn't stop it from meeting the definition of the term. Crimes committed due to them being prejudiced against a disabled person.

is_that_so · 12-04-2019 7:02pm

grindle wrote: »

We don't have a law to apply to specifically nab them for a hate crime, but our laws would have them pegged for assault and reckless endangerment.
The fact that we haven't got "Hate Crime" shoved into our statutes with it's own heading in a sub-section doesn't stop it from meeting the definition of the term. Crimes committed due to them being prejudiced against a disabled person.

If it makes you happy to use it that's fine but legally (or otherwise) it really makes no sense unless it's a lawyer pontificating.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 7:04pm

Fall_Guy wrote: »

I never said they are from a really ****ty background, I just said that they may be. I don't know for certain, but I'm making an educated guess that i am happy to say from the outset may be wrong. As i said in my earlier post.

I just don't see anything compassionate about branding kids as scumbags based on ignorant, thoughtless behaviour.

It 100% was a really ****ty thing to do, as you say. You seem to be very quick to claim people are being discompassionate towards the victim, while also failing to show any compassion towards the people who committed the stupid act. Its not a case of evil people torturing good people here, it's ignorant people hurting an innocent party.

I don't know if its cool or not, but its completely unhelpful to brand the young lads in this case as "scumbags".

You said maybe they're from a ****ty background, but maybe they aren't. Either way, we don't know - plus it's irrelevant. All that's being focused on is their behaviour, only you brought up their possible background. I don't give a toss what it is. I am referring to their behaviour and nothing more. And only they are responsible for their actions. And yes of course they are scumbags for their actions. The way you're saying there should be compassion for them is absolutely bizarre - and kinda obtuse. Why should there be compassion for them? They're the ones who did wrong. There is zero evidence that they are from a bad background or that they're not really bad, just ignorant (

I mean, so what? Their action alone spoke for itself) and even if they were from a bad background and uneducated, only they are responsible for what they did.

Candie wrote: »

I don't understand this. Did someone claim it was? Did the victim?

Aye, all sorts of things being suggested that weren't said.

recedite wrote: »

I'd say one guy dared the other guy, and he just did it on the spur of the moment without thinking too much about it.

You'd say? Based on what? The desperation to downplay here...

GinAndBitter · 12-04-2019 7:05pm

Your Face wrote: »

I don't think we should overlook her story of being publicly belittled.
I know it might be low on the list of hate crimes but we shouldnt look down on anyone.

Hard to believe there are people that reported this post. I feel sorry for them.

grindle · 12-04-2019 7:06pm

is_that_so wrote: »

pontificating

This is After Hours.

NickNickleby · 12-04-2019 7:17pm

Personally, I think 'hate crime' might be a bit strong, because I feel over use of terms like that dilute the more serious stuff.

Now, having said that, I do believe they were real scummy characters to do that. My assertion is based on the available evidence, ie their reported actions. I can only imagine the humiliation, fear and isolation this poor girl felt. No doubt its far worse than the mere words I use to describe it.

What kind of place are we living in now, that no one came to ask if she was alright? I know there's a real fear of retaliation when intervening, but even words of comfort after the fact would have been better than ignoring her.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 8:18pm

I have heard of attacks described as hate crimes when there was no evidence that the attacks were due to the person's e.g. skin colour or sexuality and the scumbags who attacked them would have attacked any misfortunate to cross their path at the wrong time.

This woman was targeted because of being a dwarf though, which makes it seem closer to the definition of hate crime. I don't know that it is, and it's not a term I'd be inclined to use, but I'm more bothered by what was done to her than misuse of a phrase.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-04-2019 8:30pm

GinAndBitter wrote: »

Hard to believe there are people that reported this post. I feel sorry for them.

Hard to believe there are people so lacking in basic empathy whose first reaction to an assault against a person with a visible disability is to (a) question the terminology used by the victim, or (b) make highly unoriginal 'dwarf lol' comments. At least it would be hard to believe, were this not AH.

Bunny Colvin · 12-04-2019 8:36pm

Probably a bit much calling the Gardai in fairness. People are bullied all the time, if the Gardai were called for every instance then you'd have no one responding to serious crime. That being said, the two lads were complete dickheads.

NickNickleby · 12-04-2019 8:48pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

I have heard of attacks described as hate crimes when there was no evidence that the attacks were due to the person's e.g. skin colour or sexuality and the scumbags who attacked them would have attacked any misfortunate to cross their path at the wrong time.

This woman was targeted because of being a dwarf though, which makes it seem closer to the definition of hate crime. I don't know that it is, and it's not a term I'd be inclined to use, but I'm more bothered by what was done to her than misuse of a phrase.

Totally agree about the opportunistic nature of many attacks, ie their motivation is simply availability of a victim - any victim.

Take the point about the importance of the description of the crime being secondary to what happened, and on re-reading my own post, it looks like I'm putting the cart before the horse. But that doesn't reflect my own sentiments, just my ability to communicate. (ps, I haven't assumed that you were having a go at me).

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 8:50pm

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

Probably a bit much calling the Gardai in fairness. People are bullied all the time, if the Gardai were called for every instance then you'd have no one responding to serious crime. That being said, the two lads were complete dickheads.

She was assaulted

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 8:52pm

i think "Hate" crime is a bit of a misnomer here. Does anyone actually think these little sheits did what they did because they "hate" small people? Who goes round hating people with dwarfism? nobody, thats who.

their actions were cruel and mean. But being the victim of a a "Mean Crime" doesnt sound quite as good i guess.

strandroad · 12-04-2019 9:04pm

They could have easily broken her neck or kicked her in the eye. It's far beyond teen stupidity and you don't do it to a person you're neutral towards.

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 9:10pm

strandroad wrote: »

It's far beyond teen stupidity

i dunno, teenagers can be very stupid. what do you think their motivation was?

Birneybau · 12-04-2019 9:12pm

Pair of scumbags tbh

Bunny Colvin · 12-04-2019 9:13pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

She was assaulted

From the article:

One of the boys landed in front of me. He had jumped over me, leap-frogged over my head from behind

He nailed the jump so didn't physically touch her.

MrFresh · 12-04-2019 9:16pm

Hate crime is just a buzz word. Crimes motivated by discrimination is what they are. And this would seem to fit the bill.

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

From the article:

He nailed the jump so didn't physically touch her.

In Ireland an assault doesn't require physical contact.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-04-2019 9:17pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i think "Hate" crime is a bit of a misnomer here. Does anyone actually think these little sheits did what they did because they "hate" small people? Who goes round hating people with dwarfism? nobody, thats who.

their actions were cruel and mean. But being the victim of a a "Mean Crime" doesnt sound quite as good i guess.

Who goes around attempting to diminish hate crimes? That weird cohort of dreadful, pedantic and massively tedious AH posters, that's who.

Fuck me, this place. Jesus.

strandroad · 12-04-2019 9:17pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i dunno, teenagers can be very stupid. what do you think their motivation was?

Views on social media. But in the process they didn't see her as a human being. A 16 year old would know not to do it to a child they are not that stupid, and yet they did it to this woman.

Bunny Colvin · 12-04-2019 9:20pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Hate crime is just a buzz word. Crimes motivated by discrimination is what they are. And this would seem to fit the bill.

In Ireland an assault doesn't require physical contact.

Just had a google of the definition and you're right.

(b) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact

She was entitled to call the Gardai in that case.

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 9:23pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Who goes around attempting to diminish hate crimes? That weird cohort of dreadful, pedantic and massively tedious AH posters, that's who.

Fuck me, this place. Jesus.

such righteous indignation! people can have different opinions and thats ok.

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 9:24pm

strandroad wrote: »

Views on social media. But in the process they didn't see her as a human being.

you dont have a shred of evidence for that.

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 9:26pm

MrFresh wrote: »

Hate crime is just a buzz word. Crimes motivated by discrimination is what they are. And this would seem to fit the bill.

agreed

ohnonotgmail · 12-04-2019 9:30pm

Funny the people who say it isn't a hate crime and in the same post describe it as exactly what a hate crime is.

The Highwayman · 12-04-2019 9:31pm

strandroad wrote: »

They could have easily broken her neck or kicked her in the eye. It's far beyond teen stupidity and you don't do it to a person you're neutral towards.

Yes because we all know how many broken necks and ripped out eyes are caused by playing leap frog.

This is the exact kind of overreaction that has people screaming hate crime. Get over yourself.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-04-2019 9:31pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

such righteous indignation! people can have different opinions and thats ok.

Utter bewilderment, not righteous indignation.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 9:32pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

i think "Hate" crime is a bit of a misnomer here. Does anyone actually think these little sheits did what they did because they "hate" small people? Who goes round hating people with dwarfism? nobody, thats who.

Not sure about the term hate crime either but they still targeted her because of her size.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 9:34pm

The Highwayman wrote: »

Yes because we all know how many broken necks and ripped out eyes are caused by playing leap frog.

This is the exact kind of overreaction that has people screaming hate crime. Get over yourself.

Why do you care more about words than the sh1tty thing that was done to someone alone and unable to defend themselves?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 12-04-2019 9:34pm

Bunny Colvin wrote: »

From the article:

He nailed the jump so didn't physically touch her.

If that's meant to be funny then it's a huge fail. It's also a pedantic attempt to diminish what was an assault.

To Leap Frog: places hands on the first's back and leaps over by straddling legs wide apart on each side.

HBC08 · 12-04-2019 9:36pm

Knacks gonna knack.Sad but true.

Gimme A Pound · 12-04-2019 9:40pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Funny the people who say it isn't a hate crime and in the same post describe it as exactly what a hate crime is.

I'm starting to suspect that they would have done it also - or at best think the two lads were ****ing brilliant to have done that to a women who's just a dwarf. Why else such hostility and lack of empathy towards her?

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 9:41pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

Why do you care more about words than the sh1tty thing that was done to someone alone and unable to defend themselves?

its literally the title of the thread

um7y1h83ge06nx · 12-04-2019 9:49pm

Keep rocking out lads!

Guess it wouldn't be After Hours without the madness!

kowloon · 12-04-2019 9:52pm

Candie wrote: »

I imagine it's called a hate crime since it only occurred because she is a dwarf. If she wasn't, it wouldn't have happened so she was targeted specifically because she was different. I don't think anyone is promoting it as the worse example of a hate crime but still, what it's called is very much a secondary consideration.

I think what gets people's back up about the term 'hate crime' is the implication that if you were singled out personally rather than as part of some group the crime is different and perceived to be a lesser offence.

Bunny Colvin · 12-04-2019 9:56pm

Tenley Gorgeous Shag wrote: »

If that's meant to be funny then it's a huge fail. It's also a pedantic attempt to diminish what was an assault.

I already figured out that it was an assault a few posts up. It wasn't pedantic either, I genuinely thought that someone had to physically touch someone to assault them. I also didn't understand how 'leapfrogging' worked. I've learned two things on boards today.

Also, just to be clear, I called the two lads who did it 'dickheads' and I wasn't condoning what they did, the issue I had was that I didn't think it was a matter for the Gardai but I'm happy to have been proven wrong.

Yer Da sells Avon · 12-04-2019 10:01pm

Irene Grumpy Crystal wrote: »

I'm starting to suspect that they would have done it also - or at best think the two lads were ****ing brilliant to have done that to a women who's just a dwarf. Why else such hostility and lack of empathy towards her?

I suspect that they simply don't give a shit about what happened to her, as opposed to being literally hostile towards people with Achondroplasia, but the concept of hate crime irks them because it also applies to attacks against marginalised groups that they do hate.

RobbingBandit · 12-04-2019 10:04pm

Kids who targeted the lady were 16 so why go to primary schools I don't know of any 16 year old in primary school do you...

Calhoun · 12-04-2019 10:04pm

Candie wrote: »

I'm not a dwarf but I am quite small and I've had someone pick me up and literally throw me to his friend across a table of drinks, they thought it was hilarious but it frightened me and has never left me. Now I'm anxious in some situations when I never was before. I hope she's okay and her message is heeded by the people she talks to, it's a worthwhile endeavour.

What the ****

, what kind of meat head Neanderthal thinks this is funny. Hope you kicked him in the balls.

Arghus · 12-04-2019 10:07pm

After Hours really sucks sometimes.

Where have all the sound people gone and why have they been replaced with mean-spirited ejits?

Blueshoe · 12-04-2019 10:10pm

Calhoun wrote: »

What the **** , what kind of meat head Neanderthal thinks this is funny. Hope you kicked him in the balls.

I'm a 5 foot tall man and years ago at a house party my "friends" put me into a dishwasher box and sealed it shut. They then put it into a van and drove to a volcano and threw me in.

YFlyer · 12-04-2019 10:13pm

The Highwayman wrote: »

There are a lot of things I'd call this behaviour but a hate crime? No, not everything you experience or dislike is a hate crime.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/sinead-burke-talks-about-the-hate-crime-that-led-to-her-new-campaign-in-dublin-schools-38007423.html

My supervisor was chairing a session at a conference. One of the presentations was about Women in Science. When the presenter finished, my supervisor said that was a wonderful talk from the little lady. The men fell about the place laughing and the women were outraged. He was 'encouraged' not to chair the rest of the session. The presenter was Dr. Little.

YFlyer · 12-04-2019 10:16pm

I remembered when Queen got into trouble for employing midgets as waiters for one of their parties.

suicide_circus · 12-04-2019 10:41pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I suspect that they simply don't give a shit about what happened to her, as opposed to being literally hostile towards people with Achondroplasia, but the concept of hate crime irks them because it also applies to attacks against marginalised groups that they do hate.

yeah i always try to commit five hate crimes before breakfast

Hate crime? Really?

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