Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

The Joker movie - starring Joaquin Phoenix (MOD: May contain Spoilers)

18911131428

Comments

  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ George Stocky Store


    Weltsmertz wrote: »
    You should probably avoid discussion threads on the movie till after you have seen it.

    read as far as the release date posts and stopped :) i'll bow out now


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Weltsmertz


    Disagree somewhat. We sympathise with him because of his ostracization and inability to connect. But disagree with the health service narrative that this is "treatable" with drugs or therapy or whatever. And while his treatment explains his actions I don't think it justifies them.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,839 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Weltsmertz wrote: »
    Disagree completely. He was not euphoric leaving the apt as he was when he killed previously. And he only killed those that had been mean to him. She hadn't. The marks are from earlier beatings.
    He had blood on himself, there's ambulance sirens and lights outside, and there's the sounds of commotion in the apartment block. Plus we never see Sophie or he daughter again in the movie, not even in Arthur's fantasises.
    I'm not saying that's how it is, just that's its a possibility, like a lot of things in the movie.

    Saying he only hurts people who hurt him is too simplistic. He may have taken her insistence to leave as a slight, as in his head they were going out.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    silverharp wrote: »
    a question about one element of the film I didnt fully get?

    were we supposed to believe that he was adopted and the Wayne family were totally above board? or did the Wayne family invent a paper trail and had her sent to the mental hospital?

    Think of the disliking he has about his name. I reckon it comes to him not really knowing who he is and that his life could of been much different without the interference of her. His hatred towards the Wayne's is pretty much as spoken in the interview, based on the scene of the bathroom. Wayne didn't show any compassion and instead of make a chance to talk with him, punched him in the face.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭JimmyCorkhill


    Saw it last night, only alright would be my opinion on it.

    Is there a Joker 2 lined up?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I actually initially presumed everything to do with going on the TV show was a fantasy. I was waiting for that to come crumbling down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Weltsmertz


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    He had blood on himself, there's ambulance sirens and lights outside, and there's the sounds of commotion in the apartment block. Plus we never see Sophie or he daughter again in the movie, not even in Arthur's fantasises.
    I'm not saying that's how it is, just that's its a possibility, like a lot of things in the movie.

    Saying he only hurts people who hurt him is too simplistic. He may have taken her insistence to leave as a slight, as in his head they were going out.

    Hell hath no fury. It is left open and your interpretation is valid. But if he had and that is what the sirens relate to then surely the police would have been swarming all over the apartment block. Based my assessment on his demeanor being after leaving the apartment being completely different to the way it was after the other killings. Sad rather than europic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Enjoyed it but a full cinema almost ruined it. They only showed 10mins of trailers so lots of people coming in late, couldn't find their seats etc.

    Will see it again next week in a less packed cinema hopefully.

    Good few people with kids walking out didn't help either.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Saw it last night, only alright would be my opinion on it.

    Is there a Joker 2 lined up?

    Joaquin wouldnt have done it, if there were plans for a multi movie deal. So this is it.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    Saw it last night, only alright would be my opinion on it.

    Is there a Joker 2 lined up?

    There's nothing in the can yet but Phoenix has been very positive about the role in his interviews, and has said he spoke to Philips about where they can possibly take the character.

    He certainly seems open to it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭panevthe3rd


    Great movie.

    Anyone else notice that during the first scene with his social worker, the clock on the wall in the background is the same clock and same time as the one on the wall when it flashes to him being in Arkham in the white room. Time was 11.10 I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,903 ✭✭✭micar


    Just seen the Ginger Baker (drummer of Cream) passed away. I've been singing/humming White Room since seeing Joker. I love that Band. RIP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Saw it last night, only alright would be my opinion on it.

    Is there a Joker 2 lined up?

    Hopefully not. There doesn't need to be a sequel to this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,663 ✭✭✭✭McDermotX


    Great movie.

    Anyone else notice that during the first scene with his social worker, the clock on the wall in the background is the same clock and same time as the one on the wall when it flashes to him being in Arkham in the white room. Time was 11.10 I think.

    Put it this way......I think there is a strong argument to suggest
    that the only completely 'real' scene in the movie is the appointment in Arkham in the last few mins.

    Ambiguous to the end, this one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭panevthe3rd


    McDermotX wrote: »
    Put it this way......I think there is a strong argument to suggest
    that the only completely 'real' scene in the movie is the appointment in Arkham in the last few mins.

    Ambiguous to the end, this one.

    I only noticed because the clock is in almost the same spot in both scenes.
    maybe he never left at all and the first and last scene are seconds apart.


  • Advertisement
  • Subscribers Posts: 41,839 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I only noticed because the clock is in almost the same spot in both scenes.
    maybe he never left at all and the first and last scene are seconds apart.

    Definitely a possibility, but would be too much of a dallas story to be the applicable one


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    I only noticed because the clock is in almost the same spot in both scenes.
    maybe he never left at all and the first and last scene are seconds apart.
    I considered that as well - that he busted himself open due to the repeated banging of his head against glass which lead to a pool of blood forming, which then lead to the blood soaked footprints.

    In true Joker form the ending really does fcuk with everything you thought you knew.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,207 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Thought it was an okay movie. Still think Ledger has the best depiction of the Joker as the Joker in this movie was a bit pathetic throughout . Mother Son relationship was great but thought this would have worked better as a generic clown murderer movie rather than him being the Joker.


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Weltsmertz


    McDermotX wrote: »
    Put it this way......I think there is a strong argument to suggest
    that the only completely 'real' scene in the movie is the appointment in Arkham in the last few mins.

    Ambiguous to the end, this one.

    Not possible. The killing of the Wayne's in front of Bruce is not something he could have known in his imagination. And it also calls for delusionn within delusion. I.g. his relationship with Sophie is a delusion but this is shattered in the movie. The delusion is contradicted by the reality. Your hypothesis calls for multiple layers of delusion

    Actually think the opposite. It is the last scene with it's clinical whiteness that is the delusion


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,207 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think this film is this generations Fight Club. I can imagine some twisted individuals would think that Joker became a cool character at the end of the movie. Though from what I recall Fight Club did not do this well in the box office.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    I think this film is this generations Fight Club. I can imagine some twisted individuals would think that Joker became a cool character at the end of the movie. Though from what I recall Fight Club did not do this well in the box office.

    I didn't think he became cool myself. As he said his life is a tragedy; even if you believe his narration, the masses only love him for what he symbolises as opposed to loving him for who he is as they don't know him.

    As Kermode put it he's simply pitiful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,663 ✭✭✭✭McDermotX


    Weltsmertz wrote: »
    Not possible. The killing of the Wayne's in front of Bruce is not something he could have known in his imagination. And it also calls for delusion within delusion. I.g. his relationship with Sophie is a delusion but this is shattered in the movie. The delusion is contradicted by the reality. Your hypothesis calls for multiple layers of delusion

    Actually think the opposite. It is the last scene with it's clinical whiteness that is the delusion

    It's not a hypothesis, it's one interpretation from a tale told from the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator. There are many interpretations that can be taken, in fact the Sophie delusion was handled quite poorly IMO with a subsequent dumbing down montage something that I would take out if it were up to me. If there was one thing, besides the clumsy Bruce Wayne angle, that felt like a studio inclusion, it was that. Let the Sophie reveal be confined to her interaction with Arthur when she finds him in her flat.

    The thing to keep in mind is that there are no consequences for anything that happened across this origin story (at least you'd hope given how successful this standalone was). The audience can be presented an interpretation of a familiar scene, such as the Wayne killings, but it can easily fit into a story spun from a delusional mind. It's our familiarity with such mythos that provides the Batman future or looks for a logical reasoning for it to be presented to us, but the suspicion that almost everything that happened in the film is the product of a delusional mind still holds.
    The initial interaction with the social worker, the end interaction with the social worker, the reveal of his previous incarceration in Arkham, the overall state of Gotham reflecting his mindset and unraveling psychosis etc

    But like I say......an unreliable narrator leads to an unreliable passage of events, so open to interpretation.
    An intriguing film.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭A Shropshire Lad


    Still think Ledger has the best depiction of the Joker .


    Jack Nicholson all the way


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Jack Nicholson all the way

    Mark Hamill would like a word.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    Mark Hamill would like a word.

    No he definitely wouldn't. He's the voice of a cartoon character, in no way comparable, no matter how much certain people want to shoehorn him in


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Weltsmertz wrote: »
    Not possible. The killing of the Wayne's in front of Bruce is not something he could have known in his imagination. And it also calls for delusionn within delusion. I.g. his relationship with Sophie is a delusion but this is shattered in the movie. The delusion is contradicted by the reality. Your hypothesis calls for multiple layers of delusion

    Actually think the opposite. It is the last scene with it's clinical whiteness that is the delusion

    That isn't really a reason why it couldn't still be part of his delusion.

    The murder of the Waynes would be a top news story, that everyone would be aware of even in Arkham. It could be something that he had nothing to do with him but he has now inserted himself as being the cause, through one of the people that now ''sees' him, wearing a clown mask.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭HappyAsLarE


    Woah, great film. Phoenix you animal of an actor.

    Wouldn’t read too much into the possibility of “it was all in his head”.
    The delusion of the girlfriend was spoiled for us intentionally to show he is proper whacky and not just a bit Aspergers. I didn’t feel we were intended to think beyond that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    No he definitely wouldn't. He's the voice of a cartoon character, in no way comparable, no matter how much certain people want to shoehorn him in

    A cartoon character, which also counts as a depiction of this comic book character we're all discussing.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,839 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    There are absolutely influences from the killing joke in this movie


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,935 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Powerful movie.
    I found it enthralling, engrossing, compelling and a really wonderfully well crafted origin movie that deserves to be a starting point for a new Batman continuity.
    1980's Gotham, and in particular the squad car scene calling back to TDK were lovely nods.
    The entire soundscape of the movie, was IMO wonderfully well designed.

    Very much a Killing Joke influenced movie, and I think the 80's setting also harkens back to Moore's masterpiece.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,611 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    A cartoon character, which also counts as a depiction of this comic book character we're all discussing.

    Yes, the voice. Hardly comparable to an overall live action performance


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,982 ✭✭✭ebbsy


    RasTa wrote: »
    Enjoyed it but a full cinema almost ruined it. They only showed 10mins of trailers so lots of people coming in late, couldn't find their seats etc.

    Will see it again next week in a less packed cinema hopefully.

    Good few people with kids walking out didn't help either.

    They shouldn't have been let in and the parents have questons to answer also.

    Newbridge Odeon did a good job in this regard however.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Yes, the voice. Hardly comparable to an overall live action performance

    It is somewhat comparable, seeing as Hamill only has his voice to convey the character.
    Different mediums, but great performances.

    But that's a whole other discussion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,533 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Phoenix is up there with Day Lewis, absolutely phenomenal performance

    De Niro and Frances Fisher (liked her since Six Feet Under) were very good


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭cdgalwegian


    Enjoyed reading comments here; salivating at prospect of watching it now. However it seemed to be getting a bit spoilery there with talk of 'delusions' etc, so I had to bypass that stuff.
    I'll come back after I've watched it. (hopefully tomorrow).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭Funkfield


    micar wrote: »
    Just seen the Ginger Baker (drummer of Cream) passed away. I've been singing/humming White Room since seeing Joker. I love that Band. RIP

    You and me both.
    Loved when that kicked in. RIP Ginger. A true legend


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,535 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    McDermotX wrote: »
    Put it this way......I think there is a strong argument to suggest
    that the only completely 'real' scene in the movie is the appointment in Arkham in the last few mins.

    Ambiguous to the end, this one.

    Normally I'm a big fan of movies that don't spoon feed you answers. However I found this a little bit annoying because
    If he was in the asylum all the time and just imagining this it kinda takes away from the movie. The "it was all just a dream" twist is only good if it's integral to the movie, and this felt a little bit jarring compared to the rest of the movie

    Otherwise, it was an amazing movie and one of the best I've seen in a long time


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Wayne Jarvis


    With all these spoiler tags pretty soon the thread will resemble this!


    Screenshot-2018-04-24-at-7.01.16-AM.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭runningbuddy


    Saw it this evening. Mind blowing. JP is phenomenal. I was expecting to be slightly disappointed (always the pessimist) due to the hype but I wasn't.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,533 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    In regard to Zazie Beetz character
    Fleck's neighbour, did he kill her and her kid?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    In regard to Zazie Beetz character
    Fleck's neighbour, did he kill her and her kid?

    Didn't occur to me


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    In regard to Zazie Beetz character
    Fleck's neighbour, did he kill her and her kid?
    I interpreted it as such. Others have given decent reasons to imagine not. It's certainly ambiguous.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ George Stocky Store


    just saw it. i think i am mixed on it
    agreed that i didn't like the dumbed down montage about her not being his gf. we got it, you don't have to browbeat us with it

    i didn't like the music in parts. it was too hamfisted. 'feel some emotion here!!' give the poor cello a rest.

    i am not sure about joker's origin being a mental illness/child abuse situation

    could have done without another wayne shooting

    can't argue that JP was incredible in it though


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,732 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    A mixed bag if ever there was one... a sometimes visceral curiosity, but a curiosity nonetheless.

    It does look and feel the part, even if there’s not much bubbling beneath the surface. When you hire Joaquin Phoenix you know you’re getting something good, and the man offers an intense, physical performance that while maybe not his finest work (that’d be something like The Master or You Were Never Really Here or Her - the man boasts one hell of a CV) is definitely a hell of an effort nonetheless. Just a full-on, physically gruelling performance. The film looks and sounds good for the most part - never as good as the many films it explicitly and implicitly draws influence from, but nonetheless a big step up as far as modern comic book films go. I saw it on a proper IMAX screen, and I appreciate how the camera focuses so much on Phoenix’s distorted expressions. And it does boast the sort of discordant, invasive soundtrack that has you quietly squirming throughout. It looks pretty cool throughout all round, especially since it takes a few opportunities to step beyond just being a vision of grim urban despair.

    Speaking of comic book films... It seems mental to type this about a film based on one of the most iconic comic characters ever created, but bear with me a second: One of Joker’s major flaws is that it misjudges how isolated it wants to be from its comic book origins. At times this could be any grubby, bleak New York psychological character study. But the
    overt references to Batman lore are neither needed nor handled well. It drags the film down in the middle act particularly, and I genuinely feel the film would have benefited from divorcing itself more completely from what came before. That we get again see the Waynes being murdered only adds to that frustration.
    At worst, I think it only serves to demystify the Joker somewhat - given the character is at his very best when there’s a sense of mystery around him (like Heath Ledger’s take, with the ever-shifting, never-reliable backstories).

    On the opposite side of the spectrum, it’s too hesitant to address real world issues as anything other than background colour - and this is only an issue because it wades straight into the territory.
    The impromptu radical protest movement that springs up around Arthur’s action is random, nonsensical and barely explored as anything other than a series of broad slogans; actual social issues like police violence are addressed with kids’ gloves.
    This film wants to be provocative, but it’s too shallow to say much of substance - a reminder that we’re firmly in the realm of mainstream studio movie. This wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t hint at this stuff - but it does, and therefore left me feeling quite unsatisfied with where they went with it (i.e. nowhere).

    There’s a point explicitly referenced in the film (quite rightly) that Joker as a character is without ideology beyond chaos - but this film on the whole comes across as confused rather than artfully chaotic. This is also all compounded by the film’s rather underwhelming vision of Gotham - basically just 1970s New York, but with the odd CG enhanced building with a sign saying ‘Gotham XXXX’ on it.

    The film is most effective then, as a sort of psychological spectacle film - a raw, persistently bleak portrait of a broken man being pushed over the edge into the realm of a psychopath, all done with a more cartoonish style than that type of material usually gets. It’s like Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, but defanged. While there are definite accomplishments here in that regard, there are limits too. The first act is the strongest, because that’s when you’re not quite sure what to make of everything.
    I got this potent sense of everything being off kilter and not right - there was clearly a murky line between Arthur’s reality and Arthur’s fantasy. I think the film sadly goes too far in making those blurred lines overt - the big neighbour reveal IMO would have worked much better had they not slotted in those flashbacks to underscore the point. The unreliable narrator aspect is basically a really good idea - initially handled well, but just becomes rather less effective as the movie travels towards its final destination.

    There’s also a busyness here that you usually see in messy first features or overindulgent sophomoric ones, even though this is neither. The film has four or five different strands going throughout - this means it’s unfocused, but again not in an artfully chaotic way that would befit the character. Instead there’s a sense of interesting subplots battling for space, and key ideas can be pushed to the side for reasonably long stretches before feeling somewhat under explored.

    It’s not a bad film, but it’s far from a great one - often pleasing in the moment, but frustrating as a whole. Todd Phillips isn’t Lynn Ramsey or Martin Scorsese, and for the superficial similarities to other, better works there’s just not the depth here to push it to another level. Don’t get me wrong: I’d take this over pretty much any other comic book movie of the past half decade (Spiderverse, as ever, excluded). It’s pushing in the right direction, and lower budget (although let’s not pretend for a second this DC, Warner Bros film based on an iconic character is an underdog :p) oddities are a better idea than dozens of virtually identical hyper-blockbusters. But if movies like this want to play in the same territory as some giants of modern cinema, they’re going to be held to the same standard. Joker is, in that respect, an interesting failure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice


    'Joker' Delivers Largest October Opening Ever with $93.5 Million
    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4552&p=.htm

    but that's just the USA!

    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=joker2019.htm
    Worldwide: $234,000,000

    I'd say it's already around 100% to 200% profit after one weekend!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(2019_film)
    Budget $55–60 million
    Probably $55–60 million on top of that for advertising.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Can the title of this thread be changed?? The name of the film is ‘Joker’ not ‘The Joker’. Such schoolboy errors cannot be tolerated. Failure to prepare then prepare to fail.

    Schoolboy error? I created the thread when the movie was just announced over a year ago and had no official title.

    ...............................

    Just saw this tonight, loved it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,650 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    A mixed bag if ever there was one... a sometimes visceral curiosity, but a curiosity nonetheless.

    It does look and feel the part, even if there’s not much bubbling beneath the surface. When you hire Joaquin Phoenix you know you’re getting something good, and the man offers an intense, physical performance that while maybe not his finest work (that’d be something like The Master or You Were Never Really Here or Her - the man boasts one hell of a CV) is definitely a hell of an effort nonetheless. Just a full-on, physically gruelling performance. The film looks and sounds good for the most part - never as good as the many films it explicitly and implicitly draws influence from, but nonetheless a big step up as far as modern comic book films go. I saw it on a proper IMAX screen, and I appreciate how the camera focuses so much on Phoenix’s distorted expressions. And it does boast the sort of discordant, invasive soundtrack that has you quietly squirming throughout. It looks pretty cool throughout all round, especially since it takes a few opportunities to step beyond just being a vision of grim urban despair.

    Speaking of comic book films... It seems mental to type this about a film based on one of the most iconic comic characters ever created, but bear with me a second: One of Joker’s major flaws is that it misjudges how isolated it wants to be from its comic book origins. At times this could be any grubby, bleak New York psychological character study. But the
    overt references to Batman lore are neither needed nor handled well. It drags the film down in the middle act particularly, and I genuinely feel the film would have benefited from divorcing itself more completely from what came before. That we get again see the Waynes being murdered only adds to that frustration.
    At worst, I think it only serves to demystify the Joker somewhat - given the character is at his very best when there’s a sense of mystery around him (like Heath Ledger’s take, with the ever-shifting, never-reliable backstories).

    On the opposite side of the spectrum, it’s too hesitant to address real world issues as anything other than background colour - and this is only an issue because it wades straight into the territory.
    The impromptu radical protest movement that springs up around Arthur’s action is random, nonsensical and barely explored as anything other than a series of broad slogans; actual social issues like police violence are addressed with kids’ gloves.
    This film wants to be provocative, but it’s too shallow to say much of substance - a reminder that we’re firmly in the realm of mainstream studio movie. This wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t hint at this stuff - but it does, and therefore left me feeling quite unsatisfied with where they went with it (i.e. nowhere).

    There’s a point explicitly referenced in the film (quite rightly) that Joker as a character is without ideology beyond chaos - but this film on the whole comes across as confused rather than artfully chaotic. This is also all compounded by the film’s rather underwhelming vision of Gotham - basically just 1970s New York, but with the odd CG enhanced building with a sign saying ‘Gotham XXXX’ on it.

    The film is most effective then, as a sort of psychological spectacle film - a raw, persistently bleak portrait of a broken man being pushed over the edge into the realm of a psychopath, all done with a more cartoonish style than that type of material usually gets. It’s like Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, but defanged. While there are definite accomplishments here in that regard, there are limits too. The first act is the strongest, because that’s when you’re not quite sure what to make of everything.
    I got this potent sense of everything being off kilter and not right - there was clearly a murky line between Arthur’s reality and Arthur’s fantasy. I think the film sadly goes too far in making those blurred lines overt - the big neighbour reveal IMO would have worked much better had they not slotted in those flashbacks to underscore the point. The unreliable narrator aspect is basically a really good idea - initially handled well, but just becomes rather less effective as the movie travels towards its final destination.

    There’s also a busyness here that you usually see in messy first features or overindulgent sophomoric ones, even though this is neither. The film has four or five different strands going throughout - this means it’s unfocused, but again not in an artfully chaotic way that would befit the character. Instead there’s a sense of interesting subplots battling for space, and key ideas can be pushed to the side for reasonably long stretches before feeling somewhat under explored.

    It’s not a bad film, but it’s far from a great one - often pleasing in the moment, but frustrating as a whole. Todd Phillips isn’t Lynn Ramsey or Martin Scorsese, and for the superficial similarities to other, better works there’s just not the depth here to push it to another level. Don’t get me wrong: I’d take this over pretty much any other comic book movie of the past half decade (Spiderverse, as ever, excluded). It’s pushing in the right direction, and lower budget (although let’s not pretend for a second this DC, Warner Bros film based on an iconic character is an underdog :p) oddities are a better idea than dozens of virtually identical hyper-blockbusters. But if movies like this want to play in the same territory as some giants of modern cinema, they’re going to be held to the same standard. Joker is, in that respect, an interesting failure.

    Great post Johnny!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A mixed bag if ever there was one... a sometimes visceral curiosity, but a curiosity nonetheless.

    It does look and feel the part, even if there’s not much bubbling beneath the surface. When you hire Joaquin Phoenix you know you’re getting something good, and the man offers an intense, physical performance that while maybe not his finest work (that’d be something like The Master or You Were Never Really Here or Her - the man boasts one hell of a CV) is definitely a hell of an effort nonetheless. Just a full-on, physically gruelling performance. The film looks and sounds good for the most part - never as good as the many films it explicitly and implicitly draws influence from, but nonetheless a big step up as far as modern comic book films go. I saw it on a proper IMAX screen, and I appreciate how the camera focuses so much on Phoenix’s distorted expressions. And it does boast the sort of discordant, invasive soundtrack that has you quietly squirming throughout. It looks pretty cool throughout all round, especially since it takes a few opportunities to step beyond just being a vision of grim urban despair.

    Speaking of comic book films... It seems mental to type this about a film based on one of the most iconic comic characters ever created, but bear with me a second: One of Joker’s major flaws is that it misjudges how isolated it wants to be from its comic book origins. At times this could be any grubby, bleak New York psychological character study. But the
    overt references to Batman lore are neither needed nor handled well. It drags the film down in the middle act particularly, and I genuinely feel the film would have benefited from divorcing itself more completely from what came before. That we get again see the Waynes being murdered only adds to that frustration.
    At worst, I think it only serves to demystify the Joker somewhat - given the character is at his very best when there’s a sense of mystery around him (like Heath Ledger’s take, with the ever-shifting, never-reliable backstories).

    On the opposite side of the spectrum, it’s too hesitant to address real world issues as anything other than background colour - and this is only an issue because it wades straight into the territory.
    The impromptu radical protest movement that springs up around Arthur’s action is random, nonsensical and barely explored as anything other than a series of broad slogans; actual social issues like police violence are addressed with kids’ gloves.
    This film wants to be provocative, but it’s too shallow to say much of substance - a reminder that we’re firmly in the realm of mainstream studio movie. This wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t hint at this stuff - but it does, and therefore left me feeling quite unsatisfied with where they went with it (i.e. nowhere).

    There’s a point explicitly referenced in the film (quite rightly) that Joker as a character is without ideology beyond chaos - but this film on the whole comes across as confused rather than artfully chaotic. This is also all compounded by the film’s rather underwhelming vision of Gotham - basically just 1970s New York, but with the odd CG enhanced building with a sign saying ‘Gotham XXXX’ on it.

    The film is most effective then, as a sort of psychological spectacle film - a raw, persistently bleak portrait of a broken man being pushed over the edge into the realm of a psychopath, all done with a more cartoonish style than that type of material usually gets. It’s like Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, but defanged. While there are definite accomplishments here in that regard, there are limits too. The first act is the strongest, because that’s when you’re not quite sure what to make of everything.
    I got this potent sense of everything being off kilter and not right - there was clearly a murky line between Arthur’s reality and Arthur’s fantasy. I think the film sadly goes too far in making those blurred lines overt - the big neighbour reveal IMO would have worked much better had they not slotted in those flashbacks to underscore the point. The unreliable narrator aspect is basically a really good idea - initially handled well, but just becomes rather less effective as the movie travels towards its final destination.

    There’s also a busyness here that you usually see in messy first features or overindulgent sophomoric ones, even though this is neither. The film has four or five different strands going throughout - this means it’s unfocused, but again not in an artfully chaotic way that would befit the character. Instead there’s a sense of interesting subplots battling for space, and key ideas can be pushed to the side for reasonably long stretches before feeling somewhat under explored.

    It’s not a bad film, but it’s far from a great one - often pleasing in the moment, but frustrating as a whole. Todd Phillips isn’t Lynn Ramsey or Martin Scorsese, and for the superficial similarities to other, better works there’s just not the depth here to push it to another level. Don’t get me wrong: I’d take this over pretty much any other comic book movie of the past half decade (Spiderverse, as ever, excluded). It’s pushing in the right direction, and lower budget (although let’s not pretend for a second this DC, Warner Bros film based on an iconic character is an underdog :p) oddities are a better idea than dozens of virtually identical hyper-blockbusters. But if movies like this want to play in the same territory as some giants of modern cinema, they’re going to be held to the same standard. Joker is, in that respect, an interesting failure.


    While I do agree with some of these points, they didn't affect my overall enjoyment of the film. I did get the sense that this didn't even need to be a Batman related Joker film. What if they left that connection out entirely. Would it still be as interesting. Or is the connection to Gotham, the Wayne's and this iconic villain that brings it all together. Would it work in a vacuum. I imagine it wouldn't be as highly rated as it ends rather abruptly in that case.



    I'm not a die hard Batman fan by any stretch of the imagination so I wasn't rolling my eyes at his parents being shot yet again. It's not something I've exposed myself too many times. My missus didn't even know who the Wayne's were in the greater context and she loved the film.



    I actually enjoyed their vision of Gotham. I completely forgot it was set in Gotham and it felt like New York. It's one of the many things that allowed me to enjoy this more. Generally speaking, I don't like comic films. The further away from that nonsense and more into the realm of realism, the better. This Gotham is much more relatable.



    As of demystifying the joker... its an origin story. That's a moot point imo. I have always been curious how someone apparently completely insane could command any kind of following and respect. It makes sense now. He became an accidental hero. Someone else mentioned that the usual origin story is that he fell into a vat of acid... that's infinitely worse.



    I definitely agree that they handled the neighbour reveal far too obviously. They could have had one or two nonsensical scenes to hammer home his descent into delusion and then had the scene where he's sitting in her apartment. When its clear she doesn't really know him, the audience could piece it together themselves. It would have been much more powerful that way.



    I don't agree that its as shallow as you say. It had me guessing the whole way through. I was in awe of how it it all tied together.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Slydice wrote: »
    'Joker' Delivers Largest October Opening Ever with $93.5 Million
    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4552&p=.htm

    but that's just the USA!

    https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=joker2019.htm


    I'd say it's already around 100% to 200% profit after one weekend!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_(2019_film)

    Probably $55–60 million on top of that for advertising.

    I think the main reason it was made is because the production budget was around 35million and from what I've read, they kept close to it. So that budget on IMDB should also be accounting for promotions.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,839 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i personally dont have a problem at all with the chaotic nature of the movie... even trying to be "artfully chaotic" wouldnt be suitable to the theme of this movie... which is the breaking down of an already seriously damaged persons psyche.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement