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Rail line to Adare for Ryder Cup

1235»

Comments

  • #202
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I'm sure bulk capacity at Belview could be expanded and upgrades made to the Lim - Wat line for a fraction of the cost of rebuilding the Foynes line and installing entirely new rail facilities there.

    Still not much point if the customer wants Foynes.

    Also, the added opex costs of 7 day operation on Limerick-Waterford *or* the capex of full CTC + CCTV gates will make any cost comparisons rather closer.


  • #203
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    L1011 wrote: »
    Still not much point if the customer wants Foynes.

    Also, the added opex costs of 7 day operation on Limerick-Waterford *or* the capex of full CTC + CCTV gates will make any cost comparisons rather closer.

    Does the customer specifically want Foynes and nothing else will do? Is the customer going to contribute towards the capital cost to get what they want?

    How long would you have to consider opex costs over to match the capital cost of reinstating the Foynes line? Opex costs on Lim - Wat would have to be considered in the context of the existing opex cost for passenger services on the line, is the extra over substantial? Any invest in the existing line also has the potential to improve passenger services and attract more users which could help eat into the cost. There would also be opex costs on the Foynes line with little or no passenger potential unless further cost is incurred to allow services into Colbert and probably costs to increase terminating capacity in the station.


  • #204
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The customer is likely to be made pay for whatever as part of their planning; and they have specifically mentioned Foynes. Shannon Foynes Port Company is also interested in part funding reinstatement.

    This is a potentially multi-billion euro, fifty to sixty year lifetime project for them; 300m in startup costs for the site alone have been mentioned.

    Calculation of costs is not going to include vague hope values from improvement in passenger loads; this is the real world. Trying to bundle a private freight flow over a passenger line they don't want (to a port they don't want) in the hope it'll cause upgrades is not viable.


  • #205
    andrewfaulk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    L1011 wrote: »
    Still not much point if the customer wants Foynes.

    Also, the added opex costs of 7 day operation on Limerick-Waterford *or* the capex of full CTC + CCTV gates will make any cost comparisons rather closer.

    Also, Belview is a tidal port with limited water depth alongside the quay that limits vessel size..


  • #206
    andrewfaulk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    bk wrote: »
    To be clear, you couldn't get a country less suited to railfreight then Ireland.

    Railfreight is suited to very heavy industry and mining and carried over very long distances where sea is not an option.

    Ireland has little in the way of heavy industry or mining. It is an island with very short distances and every city has a port making those distances even shorter.

    Most Irish industry is small to medium sized and is all almost exclusively Just In Time oriented. Most of Irelands industry is based around agriculture and food processing as as a result you can imagine is very time sensitive.

    Most freight in Ireland arrives in/out via trucks on Ferry or loaded onto trucks from container ships. Truck rolls off a ferry and 1 to 2 hours later it is at it's destination factory/warehouse.

    No industry in Ireland is going to wait around for a few days for a train worth of containers to be loaded on a train, then when the train arrives, unload the containers off the train and onto a truck for the last distance to the factory.

    Outside of the small amount of mining and maybe forestry we do, rail-freight simply makes no sense at all for most companies here.

    "Ireland has little in the way of heavy industry or mining. It is an island with very short distances and every city has a port making those distances even shorter."

    If you ignore Europe's largest zinc mine and one of europes largest salt mines..

    "Most freight in Ireland arrives in/out via trucks on Ferry or loaded onto trucks from container ships. Truck rolls off a ferry and 1 to 2 hours later it is at it's destination factory/warehouse"

    Most freight arrives in Ireland in Bulk is offloaded from the ship into a storage facility and then transported onwards from there as required..

    Source: CSO stats Q1 2020

    Dry Bulk 3426000 tonnes
    Liquid bulk 3075000 tonnes

    Total bulk 6501000 tonnes

    Ro/Ro(Ferrys) 3402000 Tonnes
    Lo/Lo (Containers) 1929000 Tonnes

    Total Unitised 5331000 Tonnes

    Also, while you may be correct that a lot of cargo arriving by Ro/Ro(Ferry) is delivered once the vessel arrives, it is not always the case, particularly with unaccompanied loads where only a trailer has been shipped(average dwell time is approx 20 hours)..

    When it comes to Lo/Lo, you are way off the mark.. The average dwell time for a container in Dublin port is around 3 days, not hours. Not everyone needs everything delivered straight away, it would be massively ineffecient as your warehouse would go from being very busy on days there is a vessel arrival to having nothing to do when a vessel arrives..

    "No industry in Ireland is going to wait around for a few days for a train worth of containers to be loaded on a train, then when the train arrives, unload the containers off the train and onto a truck for the last distance to the factory."

    It takes approx 2 hours to load a container onto a train and have it en-route, at times this is less than the time it takes a truck to collect a container from the port. By co-ordinating the train schedule with vessel ops and running multiple trains per week, it is possible to provide a service that delivers 95% containers to the right place at the right time.. For the other 5% you can use trucks to operate alongside the train..


  • #207
    andrewfaulk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    bk wrote: »
    Sure and I'd have no issue with that, at least not without looking into the details of it *

    Andrew seems to be bringing up JIT being 5% of the worlds freight and making a wider argument about rail-freight and I'm just explaining the high level reality of freight movement in Ireland which most of which is relatively light and relatively very time sensitive.

    98% of Irelands freight is carried by road and that isn't going to change. Because that is what most companies here want.

    * On the specific mines, obviously that depends if they start mining, how much they mine, the cost of road versus rail, planning requirements, etc. If they want rail-freight and are willing to pay for it and it doesn't require massive government investment or interfere with passenger services, then of course, fire away.

    “98% of Irelands freight is carried by road and that isn't going to change. Because that is what most companies here want.”

    Companies don't care if a truck or a train moves the container/cargo, they care about cost and service level


  • #208
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    L1011 wrote: »
    The customer is likely to be made pay for whatever as part of their planning; and they have specifically mentioned Foynes. Shannon Foynes Port Company is also interested in part funding reinstatement.

    This is a potentially multi-billion euro, fifty to sixty year lifetime project for them; 300m in startup costs for the site alone have been mentioned.

    Calculation of costs is not going to include vague hope values from improvement in passenger loads; this is the real world. Trying to bundle a private freight flow over a passenger line they don't want (to a port they don't want) in the hope it'll cause upgrades is not viable.

    Going to Foynes involves bundling a private freight flow over a passenger line for more than 20km into the heart of Limerick city. How many trains per day use the tracks inside the M7 compared to the Lim - Wat line?

    If the customer is going to pay for it great, I don't see how it would be a good invest for the taxpayer though. Maybe IE could allow the customer and/or SFPC lease the line for the lifetime of the mine and let them reinstate and maintain it at their own expense. They would obviously have to interact with IE services east of Limerick.

    The point I was making is that if taxpayer money is being used, that investment could deliver more benefits on an existing operational line, benefiting both passenger and freight services. If the customer only wants use Foynes then they can pay for that themselves.


  • #209
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The customer is going to be paying for whatever they do. Belview is clearly an inferior option and is not on the cards.

    Its quite plausible that a leasing company will order new 1600mm locos as well as tippler trucks for this and have the operation just get track access off Irish Rail Infrastructure; completely avoiding any contact with Irish Rail Railway Undertaking. There's a full service life of work for the locos in the expected ore yield.


  • #210
    breezy1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Extra lines into Limerick won't happen because the passenger numbers are not there. Even if you take all the people from Adare and Patrick well commuting in many would skip the train as their work would be too far from the station as a lot of Limericks workforce is spread around the outskirts.

    No excuse though for not reopening and developing the town's on the Dublin line out as far as the junction or Thurles


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  • #211
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    L1011 wrote: »
    The customer is going to be paying for whatever they do. Belview is clearly an inferior option and is not on the cards.

    Its quite plausible that a leasing company will order new 1600mm locos as well as tippler trucks for this and have the operation just get track access off Irish Rail Infrastructure; completely avoiding any contact with Irish Rail Railway Undertaking. There's a full service life of work for the locos in the expected ore yield.

    I suppose a possible major benefit of the Foynes routing then might be dualling Limerick Junction to Colbert line to ensure Passenger operations aren't negatively impacted by multiple ore trains a day?


  • #212
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    I suppose a possible major benefit of the Foynes routing then might be dualling Limerick Junction to Colbert line to ensure Passenger operations aren't negatively impacted by multiple ore trains a day?

    If they move the ore by train I imagine that most of the he journeys will be off peak.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #213
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Companies shift bulk numbers of containers as well. The majority of the Ballina freight flow is for Coca Cola. Obviously road is going to be a lot more attractive and affordable if your only shifting 2 or 3 containers. The more carbon taxes, labour ect increases companies shifting 30 plus loads a day will see rail freight as a more attractive option. There's also a big emphasis on companies to cut carbon emissions which is where rail freight offers an easy solution.

    Not every delivery lands at the local port. A good example of this is the way fyffes bananas enter the country. Cork receives 55 or 60 containers of bananas every week which are shipped up to Dublin for nationwide distribution. That's just one brand of bananas I'm sure there is many more examples of across all of the industries.


  • #214
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Obviously road is going to be a lot more attractive and affordable if your only shifting 2 or 3 containers. The more carbon taxes, labour ect increases companies shifting 30 plus loads a day will see rail freight as a more attractive option. There's also a big emphasis on companies to cut carbon emissions which is where rail freight offers an easy solution.

    The problem with this idea, is the truck manufacturers are aware of issues with carbon taxing and as result they are all rushing to build full EV and Hydrogen powered trucks.

    Given the relatively short distances in Ireland, full EV trucks really shouldn't be difficult to do in the short term.

    The carbon tax argument then goes away fast versus Diesel driven trains (which can and should also swap to EV or Hydrogen of course).

    So then it just comes down to the cost of rail versus trucking, without carbon tax playing much of a consideration.

    BTW In the long term driverless trucks will be also be very disruptive. Of course that could be applied to trains too.


  • #215
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    bk wrote: »
    The problem with this idea, is the truck manufacturers are aware of issues with carbon taxing and as result they are all rushing to build full EV and Hydrogen powered trucks.

    Given the relatively short distances in Ireland, full EV trucks really shouldn't be difficult to do in the short term.

    The carbon tax argument then goes away fast versus Diesel driven trains (which can and should also swap to EV or Hydrogen of course).

    So then it just comes down to the cost of rail versus trucking, without carbon tax playing much of a consideration.

    BTW In the long term driverless trucks will be also be very disruptive. Of course that could be applied to trains too.

    As you say trains can match whatever trucks can do ect. Point still stands about the cost of running 18 trucks versus 1 train. The key part of the post which you took out was the difference between shifting a couple of containers versus a bulk amount. Of course your post makes road more appealing when talking about singular loads.

    Where a long long way of from driverless trucks so I wouldn't be factoring that in.

    Taxes, whatever we may call them now will just be renamed when the time comes to do so. It's a large source of income for the state and it will need to be delivered one way or another regardless of the motive power.


  • #216
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Off topic posts about Drogheda bus service moved to a new thread.


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  • #217
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Going to Foynes involves bundling a private freight flow over a passenger line for more than 20km into the heart of Limerick city. How many trains per day use the tracks inside the M7 compared to the Lim - Wat line?

    If the customer is going to pay for it great, I don't see how it would be a good invest for the taxpayer though. Maybe IE could allow the customer and/or SFPC lease the line for the lifetime of the mine and let them reinstate and maintain it at their own expense. They would obviously have to interact with IE services east of Limerick.

    The point I was making is that if taxpayer money is being used, that investment could deliver more benefits on an existing operational line, benefiting both passenger and freight services. If the customer only wants use Foynes then they can pay for that themselves.

    So Tax payer money on roads, landowners and private partnerships is fine, while tax payer money on publicly owned railways isn’t. One could be forgiven for thinking that if there isn’t a boondoggle for a private organisation in there, infrastructure investment won’t happen.


  • #218
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    So Tax payer money on roads, landowners and private partnerships is fine, while tax payer money on publicly owned railways isn’t. One could be forgiven for thinking that if there isn’t a boondoggle for a private organisation in there, infrastructure investment won’t happen.

    My post was in response to someone saying reopening the Foynes line would be exclusively for a private organisation, why should the taxpayer contribute to that? I suggested that that any taxpayer money be invested in the existing operational line which would also benefit a passenger service which is slowly dying due to lack of investment. Tax payer money on publicly owned railway exclusively for a private enterprise isn’t fine.


  • #219
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    My post was in response to someone saying reopening the Foynes line would be exclusively for a private organisation, why should the taxpayer contribute to that? I suggested that that any taxpayer money be invested in the existing operational line which would also benefit a passenger service which is slowly dying due to lack of investment. Tax payer money on publicly owned railway exclusively for a private enterprise isn’t fine.

    Don't see the issue here as IE will be paid for such services. Should the Navan line be closed?


  • #220
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Don't see the issue here as IE will be paid for such services. Should the Navan line be closed?

    Mod: The Navan line is off topic for this thread. This thread is about the Adare line.


  • #221
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,038 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Don't see the issue here as IE will be paid for such services. Should the Navan line be closed?

    That is a completely different situation, the Navan line doesn't have to be rebuild at significant capital cost. Whatever IE get paid for services to Foynes, I doubt it would go anywhere near covering the capital cost of reinstating the line.


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  • #222
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    That is a completely different situation, the Navan line doesn't have to be rebuild at significant capital cost. Whatever IE get paid for services to Foynes, I doubt it would go anywhere near covering the capital cost of reinstating the line.

    I still feel like the greatest benefit IE could get from this is working dual tracking and grade separating Limerick Junction to Limerick and the reconfiguration of Limerick Junction into this proposal, maybe even do the whole thing as a PPP with the mining operation, that would vastly improve operations for IE in the Limerick area and would help offset the outlay a bit.


  • #223
    JJJackal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this, Qatar is building practically everything for the FIFA World Cup. South Africa did the same for their work cup. Athens the same for the Olympics. While these are on a different scale to the Ryder cup, so is reopening 15km of rail line rather than building entire metro systems

    What will all the stadia in Qatar be used for post world cup?

    Do you know what has happened in SA and Greece?

    Greece went essentially bankrupt and altered the books to fund the Olympics


  • #224
    breezy1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    JJJackal wrote: »
    What will all the stadia in Qatar be used for post world cup?

    Do you know what has happened in SA and Greece?

    Greece went essentially bankrupt and altered the books to fund the Olympics

    Qatar, Greece and SA are 3 countries pretty high on the list of countries I don't want Ireland copying


  • #225
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,393 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    JJJackal wrote: »
    What will all the stadia in Qatar be used for post world cup?

    Do you know what has happened in SA and Greece?

    Greece went essentially bankrupt and altered the books to fund the Olympics

    In their bid they actually said they would cut the stadiums in half and sell the upper tier to poorer African countries.

    The stadiums were to be modular so the upper tier could be sperated and used as it's own single tier building.

    Not sure how much of that is going to happen but I read it in the days leading up to the decision in 2010.


  • #226
    breezy1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    In their bid they actually said they would cut the stadiums in half and sell the upper tier to poorer African countries.

    The stadiums were to be modular so the upper tier could be sperated and used as it's own single tier building.

    Not sure how much of that is going to happen but I read it in the days leading up to the decision in 2010.

    Pretty sure every WC and Olympics lies through its teeth about infrastructure and legacy when bidding. The Ryder cup is probably no different


  • #227
    Paddico
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭Paddico


    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/?fbclid=IwAR3U51RB2vPLMPwepZ-ITTVoNLBtblxmwHq3Ru6OuVR4HPqX7qeVQWpKmno


  • #228
    breezy1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Paddico wrote: »
    https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2020/09/26/how-a-port-in-limerick-has-become-central-to-moves-to-reopen-the-western-rail-corridor/?fbclid=IwAR3U51RB2vPLMPwepZ-ITTVoNLBtblxmwHq3Ru6OuVR4HPqX7qeVQWpKmno

    Needing it as a condition of a Europort license is probably the only chance this project has. The Ryder cup will get a mention but this is the real key.

    Sorry I'm a bit of a novice on trains and was wondering can you run a freight train with a passenger carriage or two stuck on and kill two birds with one stone


  • #229
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Needing it as a condition of a Europort license is probably the only chance this project has. The Ryder cup will get a mention but this is the real key.

    Sorry I'm a bit of a novice on trains and was wondering can you run a freight train with a passenger carriage or two stuck on and kill two birds with one stone


    No demand and not practical these days. The Attymon Junction/Loughrea branch which closed in 1975 was the last line where such a service operated.

    ****



  • #230
    breezy1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,041 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Needing it as a condition of a Europort license is probably the only chance this project has. The Ryder cup will get a mention but this is the real key.

    Sorry I'm a bit of a novice on trains and was wondering can you run a freight train with a passenger carriage or two stuck on and kill two birds with one stone


    No demand and not practical these days. The Attymon Junction/Loughrea branch which closed in 1975 was the last line where such a service operated.

    No demand for which the passenger line or the line in general?


  • #231
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    breezy1985 wrote: »

    No demand for which the passenger line or the line in general?


    No demand for having goods wagons attached to passenger trains as there's no longer sundries (general) merchandise on the Irish railway system.

    ****



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  • #232
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,542 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The CRR would have kittens and it would be of basically no cost benefit anymore.


  • #233
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭Ireland trains


    A suburban rail network in Limerick was mentioned again recently by Green Party TD Brian leddin mentioning stations at Raheen, Ballysimon and Adare to name a few. He also mentioned shannon which surprised me.
    I assume that he is referring to the Limeick transport study. Any word on when it is due to be published?


  • #234
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    LSMATS came out against a Limerick Commuter rail network, in a fit of short sightedness. It envisages a growth in car commuters in the region *eyeroll.


  • #235
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,186 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    A suburban rail network in Limerick was mentioned again recently by Green Party TD Brian leddin mentioning stations at Raheen, Ballysimon and Adare to name a few. He also mentioned shannon which surprised me.
    I assume that he is referring to the Limeick transport study. Any word on when it is due to be published?
    It was published a few months ago. Thread here. It recommends massive bus improvements. No mention of rail other than double tracking the Limerick to Limerick Junction line.


  • #236
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    cgcsb wrote: »
    LSMATS came out against a Limerick Commuter rail network, in a fit of short sightedness. It envisages a growth in car commuters in the region *eyeroll.

    Funnily enough, CMATS saw a massive growth in car commuters too.

    *Cough*
    Not fit for purpose
    *Cough*


  • #237
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    cgcsb wrote: »
    LSMATS came out against a Limerick Commuter rail network, in a fit of short sightedness. It envisages a growth in car commuters in the region *eyeroll.

    I don't understand how in this day and age any report saying "We envisage an increase in car commuters to the city" doesn't immediately follow that with a line saying "In order to prevent this we are developing the following measures:"


  • #238
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Well if you look at the council's current proposals for low density housing in Mungret and Moyross along with their pushing of the LNDR then you have to conclude that those in power don't have an issue with cars


  • #239
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    It was published a few months ago. Thread here. It recommends massive bus improvements. No mention of rail other than double tracking the Limerick to Limerick Junction line.
    Was that not the draft version. In irish rail's submission the suggested stops at parkway, moyross and possibly a parkway at Cratloe


  • #240
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The whole Ireland 2040 document is centred around compact growth but it seems that's being ignored around the country by both councils and the NTA. In Dublin since 2017 most residential development has been outside the M50 and most of it is houses, not apartments. The money to be spent on CMATS is mostly on new roads and it proposes doing close to nothing for public transport in Cork until about 2030, the year be which we'll have missed every climate change target going


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