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Importing a classic from NI now

2

Comments

  • #52
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    from this article, the quote from Revenue: " We won’t permit cars to be routed through the North from Britain into the North and down here without the payment of VAT and customs duties where a dealer bringing in cars through Dublin Port would have to pay VAT and customs duty,"



    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0208/1195704-uk-car-imports/

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #53
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Exactly. I've been saying that all along, but oh no, I was wrong and spreading false information :p

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  • #54
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    galwaytt wrote: »
    from this article, the quote from Revenue: " We won’t permit cars to be routed through the North from Britain into the North and down here without the payment of VAT and customs duties where a dealer bringing in cars through Dublin Port would have to pay VAT and customs duty,"



    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0208/1195704-uk-car-imports/

    It's hard to see how they will do that. If the UK don't collect the VAT, that's up to them, but whether UK VAT is paid or not is nothing to do with our Revenue. I suppose they could hold a car at the port or refuse to re-register it if there wasn't "VAT paid" receipt. They could claim it was not "properly imported" I guess


  • #55
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Isambard wrote: »
    It's hard to see how they will do that. If the UK don't collect the VAT, that's up to them, but whether UK VAT is paid or not is nothing to do with our Revenue. I suppose they could hold a car at the port or refuse to re-register it if there wasn't "VAT paid" receipt. They could claim it was not "properly imported" I guess
    They dont care about VAT or sales tax in outside countries.
    I imported from the US and had to pay vat before I could land the car in the country, even though I already paid sales tax in the US.


  • #56
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    well you'd expect to have to pay tax entering the EU but NI is treated as EU for tax purposes now.

    How do you suggest they will not permit cars to enter as they state?


  • #57
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Whatever tax is paid in a country outside the EU (UK, USA, China, etc.) is not relevant for what tax is due here in Ireland.

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  • #58
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Isambard wrote: »
    well you'd expect to have to pay tax entering the EU but NI is treated as EU for tax purposes now.

    How do you suggest they will not permit cars to enter as they state?


    Following current rules, there is no established mechanism.

    unkel wrote: »
    Whatever tax is paid in a country outside the EU (UK, USA, China, etc.) is not relevant for what tax is due here in Ireland.
    Yes, that's my point. They don't (and won't) care about UK vat.


  • #59
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    BUT NI seems to have a special status here where this doesn't apply :p

    If you bring a car from the UK to NI you can register it there and not pay VAT. However if you subsequently bring it over to ROI and register it here, you will need to pay VAT

    My ads on adverts.ie

    https://www.adverts.ie/member/5856/ads



  • #60
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    unkel wrote: »
    BUT NI seems to have a special status here where this doesn't apply :p

    If you bring a car from the UK to NI you can register it there and not pay VAT. However if you subsequently bring it over to ROI and register it here, you will need to pay VAT
    If it's an NI registered car you do not need to pay vat.
    There's no mechanism to allow it


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  • #61
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    and yet Revenue are saying they won't allow it. As far as I can see the only way they can achieve this is by not allowing the car to be re-registered, presumably they will say the car was not "properly imported to NI" as the VAT was not paid coming into the EU area..


  • #62
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Isambard wrote: »
    and yet Revenue are saying they won't allow it. As far as I can see the only way they can achieve this is by not allowing the car to be re-registered, presumably they will say the car was not "properly imported to NI" as the VAT was not paid coming into the EU area..
    This is not their concern, and they have no legal mechanism to inspect or enforce it.


  • #63
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    That's you opinion, I'm not offering an opinion ,but given that they have said they won't allow it, I'm wondering how they will achieve it


  • #64
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    "They won't allow it" - must be based on jurisdiction though.
    What legal act or requirement grants them jurisdiction to question VAT outside of the state? They have not had this previously, and, as per the terms of the trade deal, NI must be treated as part of the EU. Thus, imports of NI registered cars would be VAT free. VAT between NI and GB is a matter for the UK currently.


  • #65
    reubenreuben
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭reubenreuben


    unkel wrote: »
    BUT NI seems to have a special status here where this doesn't apply :p

    If you bring a car from the UK to NI you can register it there and not pay VAT. However if you subsequently bring it over to ROI and register it here, you will need to pay VAT

    It's GB into NI,

    UK. Is England,Scotland,Wales and NI


  • #66
    jetfiremuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,468 ✭✭✭jetfiremuck


    Can anyone verify if assuming theere is a paper trail thats easily followed regarding car history etc. then can it be interperted that if the car (Uk) was in the north duly registered before Jan 1 I think all is good. If from 1 Jan cars that are coming from GB into North then purchased for import here, then its like buying in the Uk and arriving in Dublin with all charges etc.

    The fact that Revenue were on the 1pm news today shows that there must have been sharp intakes of breath with the import charges people were expected to pay.


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  • #67
    reubenreuben
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭reubenreuben


    jetfiremuck wrote: »
    Can anyone verify if assuming theere is a paper trail thats easily followed regarding car history etc. then can it be interperted that if the car (Uk) was in the north duly registered before Jan 1 I think all is good. If from 1 Jan cars that are coming from GB into North then purchased for import here, then its like buying in the Uk and arriving in Dublin with all charges etc.

    The fact that Revenue were on the 1pm news today shows that there must have been sharp intakes of breath with the import charges people were expected to pay.

    What were revenue saying?


  • #68
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,503 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    reubenreuben wrote: »
    What were revenue saying?
    See the link above.

    Not your ornery onager



  • #69
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    This is another money making racket from revenue.

    Up until January 2020... the UK was in the EU.
    Therefore any cars imported to NI before then were EU sourced. Revenue behaving as if GB was never in the EU.


  • #70
    reubenreuben
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭reubenreuben


    Rodin wrote: »
    This is another money making racket from revenue.

    Up until January 2020... the UK was in the EU.
    Therefore any cars imported to NI before then were EU sourced. Revenue behaving as if GB was never in the EU.



    NI dealers only paying vat on the profit of GB imported cars hasn't changed from pre brexit days so buying a NI car from a NI dealer and importing into south stays the same. Vrt/nox payable only unless it's a new car.

    Unless Irish gov change it with agreement with EU that is.


  • #71
    turbocab
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭turbocab


    Well fellow car enthusiasts,you can now see how your government treats you,The revenue are basically going to have a field day with this.I feel sorry for any younger people trying to come into the classic car scene.Claasics already registered here are going to go up in value as it becomes prohibitve to import from now on.


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  • #72
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    in fairness the system for importing from the UK is now similar to that from any other third country, in fact it's better because if the classic is UK built, it won't attract Import duty. Not really anything our Government is doing to us.


  • #73
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    turbocab wrote: »
    Well fellow car enthusiasts,you can now see how your government treats you,The revenue are basically going to have a field day with this.I feel sorry for any younger people trying to come into the classic car scene.Claasics already registered here are going to go up in value as it becomes prohibitve to import from now on.


    I agree with your point, but I wouldn't go that far that it is now prohibitive to import one. You can still import a decent classic car from the UK bought for about £1500 and it will cost you less than €3,000 landed, including import duty, VAT, travel costs and VRT.

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  • #74
    hi5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,107 ✭✭✭hi5


    Rodin wrote: »
    This is another money making racket from revenue.

    Up until January 2020... the UK was in the EU.
    Therefore any cars imported to NI before then were EU sourced. Revenue behaving as if GB was never in the EU.

    That's exactly how it works, it's the same as when countries join the EU.
    When countries like Poland and the other accession states joined the EU in 2004 you could import from those countries without any VAT or duty the day after joining even though no EU VAT had ever been paid previously.
    What happened previous to joining or leaving is of no interest.


  • #75
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    unkel wrote: »
    I agree with your point, but I wouldn't go that far that it is now prohibitive to import one. You can still import a decent classic car from the UK bought for about £1500 and it will cost you less than €3,000 landed, including import duty, VAT, travel costs and VRT.

    but the cost will be much higher than it was previously and there would be no advantage in buying a UK car as an Irish registered car would cost much the same.


  • #76
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Can't argue with that!

    My ads on adverts.ie

    https://www.adverts.ie/member/5856/ads



  • #77
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ELM327 wrote: »
    If it's an NI registered car you do not need to pay vat.
    There's no mechanism to allow it

    Well according to Revenue, if the car is just being 'washed through' NI, they won't allow it, even with NI reg. Otherewise every Tom/Dick/Harry will reg UK cars at an NI address, and think that cures it.

    Date of UK sale, MOT date, date last taxed, all easy to check by Revenue.

    They just have to 'form the opinion' and that's that, basically. The don't need to 'prove' anything - they hold all the cards.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #78
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I, like most, would be very interested to see a test case of the above. The legislation of "the deal" was so rushed that I'd doubt there are legal provisions to allow the above overreach.


  • #79
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ELM327 wrote: »
    "They won't allow it" - must be based on jurisdiction though.
    What legal act or requirement grants them jurisdiction to question VAT outside of the state? They have not had this previously, and, as per the terms of the trade deal, NI must be treated as part of the EU. Thus, imports of NI registered cars would be VAT free. VAT between NI and GB is a matter for the UK currently.

    Right, tiny update, after some communication with Revenue on the subject.

    My position was this (extract) :
    "The principle I'm going on here is that vehicles (imported) here, must have VAT paid in the EU. However, all UK vehicles registered in the UK pre December 31st 2019 do have VAT paid in the EU already. When they were registered (lets take the example of a 2017 car), it had 20% VAT paid in the EU.

    The fact that the UK has subsequently left the EU does not diminish the fact it was taxed in accordance with EU regulations and the VAT paid when new (2017). The 'leaving' of hte UK from the EU doesn't materially change that fact, and so consumers should not now be penalised or double-taxed.


    This being the case, why should there be any VAT on such vehicles imported here, now ? "



    Which brings us to include Unkel's point:
    unkel wrote: »
    Whatever tax is paid in a country outside the EU (UK, USA, China, etc.) is not relevant for what tax is due here in Ireland.

    To which Revenue say:
    "The UK’s departure from the EU means that goods from the UK (with exception of Northern Ireland) are no longer considered to be from within the EU or to have had EU import taxes applied to them. This is regardless of their previous status or time of purchase. "

    So basically they're saying that EU taxes paid in the EU, are not counted, or are irrelevant, since that State left the EU.

    To me, that is retrospective taxation, which is generally considered repugnant (in all senses of the word).

    I think there's mileage in my argument, so, again, not expecting anything, have written to the EC about it. .............

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #80
    reubenreuben
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭reubenreuben


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Right, tiny update, after some communication with Revenue on the subject.

    My position was this (extract) :
    "The principle I'm going on here is that vehicles (imported) here, must have VAT paid in the EU. However, all UK vehicles registered in the UK pre December 31st 2019 do have VAT paid in the EU already. When they were registered (lets take the example of a 2017 car), it had 20% VAT paid in the EU.

    The fact that the UK has subsequently left the EU does not diminish the fact it was taxed in accordance with EU regulations and the VAT paid when new (2017). The 'leaving' of hte UK from the EU doesn't materially change that fact, and so consumers should not now be penalised or double-taxed.


    This being the case, why should there be any VAT on such vehicles imported here, now ? "



    Which brings us to include Unkel's point:


    To which Revenue say:
    "The UK’s departure from the EU means that goods from the UK (with exception of Northern Ireland) are no longer considered to be from within the EU or to have had EU import taxes applied to them. This is regardless of their previous status or time of purchase. "

    So basically they're saying that EU taxes paid in the EU, are not counted, or are irrelevant, since that State left the EU.

    To me, that is retrospective taxation, which is generally considered repugnant (in all senses of the word).

    I think there's mileage in my argument, so, again, not expecting anything, have written to the EC about it. .............
    So are we looking at another double taxation strategy with similarity to vrt


  • #81
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    but it's not just cars, all goods moving into the state from outside the EU area are subject to 21% of the purchase price and delivery. It's up to you to try and get a refund from the UK (good luck with that) , it's not the Irish position that they should make allowances for UK tax as it now of no benefit to us. In fact they have said from July it will be pursued with no exceptions.

    Don't be blaming our Government, it's an EU thing and I'm sure the same applies throughout. I expect the UK are doing just the same on EU imports.


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  • #82
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Isambard wrote: »
    but it's not just cars, all goods moving into the state from outside the EU area are subject to 21% of the purchase price and delivery. It's up to you to try and get a refund from the UK (good luck with that) , it's not the Irish position that they should make allowances for UK tax as it now of no benefit to us. In fact they have said from July it will be pursued with no exceptions.

    Don't be blaming our Government, it's an EU thing and I'm sure the same applies throughout. I expect the UK are doing just the same on EU imports.

    Yes, but Audi's, BMW's, VW's and many others bought in the UK, are of EU origin. The fact they 'transited' through UK should not be allowed to attract Customs, for a start.

    But I agree the VAT is a double-tax, and I think that argument has legs. I just wonder who has the energy to fight it.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #83
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    blame "the deal" , it was for GB made goods only. I agree with you though, a car registered in the UK should be regarded as British irrespective of where it was built.


  • #84
    reubenreuben
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭reubenreuben


    Isambard wrote: »
    blame "the deal" , it was for GB made goods only. I agree with you though, a car registered in the UK should be regarded as British irrespective of where it was built.

    And Irish Gov are part of the EU and were included in the Deal discussions. What a bunch of losers or is that us now?


  • #85
    turbocab
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭turbocab


    Isambard wrote: »
    in fairness the system for importing from the UK is now similar to that from any other third country, in fact it's better because if the classic is UK built, it won't attract Import duty. Not really anything our Government is doing to us.

    That may be your opinion ,but i would say most people would not agree.


  • #86
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,974 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Hopefully the OP imports one and can let us all know what the actual process ism I have a feeling even those in Revenue do not even know themselves.


  • #87
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    turbocab wrote: »
    That may be your opinion ,but i would say most people would not agree.

    it's not an opinion, that's what the situation is. UK is now a Third Country (same as USA Japan et al) with a trade deal which means GB built products are free from Import Duty


  • #88
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Isambard wrote: »
    it's not an opinion, that's what the situation is. UK is now a Third Country (same as USA Japan et al) with a trade deal which means GB built products are free from Import Duty

    Are you sure of that. As a boards member recently bought a car cover from the UK, and paid customs duty?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116205786#post116205786


  • #89
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Presumably if the cover was bought from the North, it would be customs duty free:confused:


  • #90
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    kadman wrote: »
    Are you sure of that. As a boards member recently bought a car cover from the UK, and paid customs duty?

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=116205786#post116205786

    I'd be prepared to bet they paid VAT not Import Duty (I wouldn't bet very much though)


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  • #91
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Poster clearly says he paid customs duty.
    If it was vat, then he got a Stormforce cover for 50 euros, normally 200.:D


  • #92
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    kadman wrote: »
    Poster clearly says he paid customs duty.
    If it was vat, then he got a Stormforce cover for 50 euros, normally 200.:D

    he actually just says customs, and doesn't mention VAT at all .I can't see how he'd pay Excise Duty but not VAT.

    he also said "He said he's stick a different value on the package for me"


  • #93
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,710 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    It's probably the admin charge of clearing it. This applies even if there was zero import duty and just VAT to be paid.

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  • #94
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Isambard wrote: »
    he actually just says customs, and doesn't mention VAT at all .I can't see how he'd pay Excise Duty but not VAT.

    he also said "He said he's stick a different value on the package for me"

    There is only 1 reason to put a lower price on a declaration, and its to lower customs due on it.


  • #95
    FirstIn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 657 ✭✭✭FirstIn


    What about a NI built 1980s car. Bringing that in from England. What will that be subject to?

    I also buy parts for my classics from the owners clubs in the UK. How the heck do you prove your kingpin set etc is British made? I reckon a lot of the NOS stuff is British built.


  • #96
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I did wonder what the situation would be for one of them :-) maybe someone buying one will keep us posted...


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  • #97
    Casati
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Casati


    Isambard wrote: »
    I'd be prepared to bet they paid VAT not Import Duty (I wouldn't bet very much though)

    The cover was likely manufactured outside of the U.K. hence duty is liable, if it was English made then no duty will apply


  • #98
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Casati wrote: »
    The cover was likely manufactured outside of the U.K. hence duty is liable, if it was English made then no duty will apply

    and VAT? what of that.


  • #99
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    I think that as it is still an unknown quantity many would be wary of an expensive purchase of
    any item from the UK, just in case the vatman pounces at the doorstep.

    I remember this happening to me many years ago with a doorstep tarrif on an item I purchased from the US.

    When i saw the bill, 50% of purchase price, I was hoping grab team C would put me on a rendition flight to the US
    for my own safety.

    Er indoors was not amused:eek::eek:
    She has quietened down a lot since then:D:D


  • #100
    Isambard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I'm not ordering anything from the UK. If a parcel gets routed that way by the seller or courier, and a tax bill arrives with it, I intend to reject it and claim a refund.


  • #101
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Isambard wrote: »
    I'm not ordering anything from the UK. If a parcel gets routed that way by the seller or courier, and a tax bill arrives with it, I intend to reject it and claim a refund.

    I think thats going to be the order of the day for a lot of purchases. I dont know where to get the proper info either.

    I know from previous experience looking for similar info for purchases from countries out side the EU, that it was a head wrecking experience. I ended up throwing in the towel and keeping my purchases within the EU.

    Maybe that was the purpose all along now that I think of it, mmmhh.


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