WHS - Slopes

prawnsambo · 13-11-2019 7:54pm

Seve OB wrote: »

but they would be allowed.

red comp
green comp
white comp
blue comp

enter whichever one you want

of course i was always thinking you can still have a mens comp and a ladies comp, but you have a good idea there with the divisional prizes

In theory you should just be playing the competition and choosing which tees on entry. Everything the same after that. But it really depends on the course and all its tee boxes being rated for both sexes. I wonder will that actually be done.

Russman · 13-11-2019 8:03pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

Nope, your underlying index is 8, so if you went to a course that is exactly average - 113, you would get 8 shots. If you played off the blues in BB you would get 10 say, but if you pitched up in a flat field somewhere like Slievenamon you would possibly only get 6. This is why the difference between handicap and index is important.

If player A played 20 rounds in a year in ballybunion all at exactly 8 over par, their index would be likely far lower than 8, say 5 (I can do the suns later) as BB is harder than your average course.

If player B is a Royal Slievenamon member and plays 20 rounds 8 over, they would likely have an index somewhere around 11 or so.

That’s because the slope rating either discounts or increases the value of the round you shoot to balance the difficulty of the course.

It’s the same concept as standard scratch really, via a different mathematical route. If BB off the blue tees is par 72 but SSS of 74, this broadly means that par for an 8 handicapper is effectively 10 over, not 8.

Thanks for that.

So, let’s say I’m your 8 handicapper, am I right to say that when the new system comes in, my base index could well end up being maybe anything from 6 to 10, depending on how my home course gets rated ?
I had assumed our current CONGU handicaps would become our “opening” index if you know what I mean. Or that the opening index would be the 96% of the best 8 out of last 20. It does make sense to factor in the difficulty of the course when coming up with the opening index though if that’s the case.

I know a few guys who left our club in recent years and are now a few shots lower in their new course(s) - I guess this is doing all that work in one fell swoop, sort of !

So, effectively we’ll be taking our current CONGU handicap and using the course ratings and the formula to work backwards to come up with an index that gives us our current CONGU handicap ?

Seve OB · 13-11-2019 9:11pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

In theory you should just be playing the competition and choosing which tees on entry. Everything the same after that. But it really depends on the course and all its tee boxes being rated for both sexes. I wonder will that actually be done.

disagree with you there
you can't play the same competition from different tees

prawnsambo · 13-11-2019 9:16pm

Seve OB wrote: »

disagree with you there
you can't play the same competition from different tees

Of course you can. I've done it myself. I've played in opens where the women play off reds and men off whites and the overall prizes go to the best score regardless. Competition software that I've used allows for this too.

Seve OB · 13-11-2019 9:37pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Of course you can. I've done it myself. I've played in opens where the women play off reds and men off whites and the overall prizes go to the best score regardless. Competition software that I've used allows for this too.

maybe i should have just said its wrong

hurleronditch · 13-11-2019 9:54pm

spacecoyote wrote: »

I suppose as an extension of that point, might you argue that everyone should have their start index re-calibrated at the beginning of the changover relative to their home clubs ratings?

So assuming that the new system is introduced on 1/11/2020, if Mr Ballybunion has a handicap of 8 on the 31/10/2020, should they then have a starting handicap index of 6.9 or whatever the number works out at?

That makes no sense. What happens currently if Mr Ballybunion rocks up to play an interclub match against an 8 from Slievenamon? They play a scratch match. That concept doesn’t change from currently. Your index is your underlying “handicap” that travels with you. Once you get to the course and see the slope you then calculate what your playing handicap is for that day

hurleronditch · 13-11-2019 9:59pm

Russman wrote: »

Thanks for that.

So, let’s say I’m your 8 handicapper, am I right to say that when the new system comes in, my base index could well end up being maybe anything from 6 to 10, depending on how my home course gets rated ?
I had assumed our current CONGU handicaps would become our “opening” index if you know what I mean. Or that the opening index would be the 96% of the best 8 out of last 20. It does make sense to factor in the difficulty of the course when coming up with the opening index though if that’s the case.

I know a few guys who left our club in recent years and are now a few shots lower in their new course(s) - I guess this is doing all that work in one fell swoop, sort of !

So, effectively we’ll be taking our current CONGU handicap and using the course ratings and the formula to work backwards to come up with an index that gives us our current CONGU handicap ?

But your Congu already serves the same purpose as the index, it’s just you adjust your playing handicap from week to week and course to course.

As I said in the above reply, we don’t currently adjust the Congu 8 from BallyB against the 8 from Slievenamon, they are viewed as equal under the new rules as the old. It’s just when the BallyBunion chap goes home and plays a Sunday medal in his home course he will actually be playing off of 10, whereas the Slievenamon lad will probably be off 6.

prawnsambo · 13-11-2019 11:36pm

There may be some confusion over what your Handicap index is and how it works. It's basically a multiplier that's used in calculating your handicap for a given course on a given set of tees. And that course could be your home course or an away course.

Let's take an 8 handicapper from Castlemartyr (White tees SR 120, CR 70, Par 72). On 01/11/2020 the best 8 of his last 20 rounds average 81.2. His handicap index is thus ((81.2 * 96%) - 70) * 113 / 120 = 7.48.

So now he goes out and plays the white tees again. His course handicap is (7.48 * 120 / 113) + (70-72) = 5.95 (6). If he plays off the blue tees (SR 133, CR 73, Par 72), his handicap is (7.48 * 133 /113) + (73-72) = 9.8 (10).

Rikand · 14-11-2019 8:40am

prawnsambo wrote: »

There may be some confusion over what your Handicap index is and how it works. It's basically a multiplier that's used in calculating your handicap for a given course on a given set of tees. And that course could be your home course or an away course.

Let's take an 8 handicapper from Castlemartyr (White tees SR 120, CR 70, Par 72). On 01/11/2020 the best 8 of his last 20 rounds average 81.2. His handicap index is thus ((81.2 * 96%) - 70) * 113 / 120 = 7.48.

So now he goes out and plays the white tees again. His course handicap is (7.48 * 120 / 113) + (70-72) = 5.95 (6). If he plays off the blue tees (SR 133, CR 73, Par 72), his handicap is (7.48 * 133 /113) + (73-72) = 9.8 (10).

hurleronditch · 14-11-2019 9:25am

prawnsambo wrote: »

There may be some confusion over what your Handicap index is and how it works. It's basically a multiplier that's used in calculating your handicap for a given course on a given set of tees. And that course could be your home course or an away course.

Let's take an 8 handicapper from Castlemartyr (White tees SR 120, CR 70, Par 72). On 01/11/2020 the best 8 of his last 20 rounds average 81.2. His handicap index is thus ((81.2 * 96%) - 70) * 113 / 120 = 7.48.

So now he goes out and plays the white tees again. His course handicap is (7.48 * 120 / 113) + (70-72) = 5.95 (6). If he plays off the blue tees (SR 133, CR 73, Par 72), his handicap is (7.48 * 133 /113) + (73-72) = 9.8 (10).

I think this example is over exaggerating it according to the Castlemartyr scorecard online whites are 113/72 and the blues are 123/73.

(81.2*.96)-72) *113/113 = 5.952

Therefor index is 6.0- as the whites are 113 slope it means a round off the whites he plays of 6, a trip round the blues means he plays off 8 (5.95*123/113)+73-72)= 7.47, which rounds to 7.5 and he plays off 8

The big difference in our example is the course rating. A three shot differential between blues and whites is massive and wouldn’t be seen in many Irish courses outside of maybe one of the links courses having beastly tournament tees. As a comparison the biggest difference I’ve ever seen is at Bethpage black where the black tees are over a thousand yards longer than the whites and the ratings are 77.5 vs 74.2

blue note · 14-11-2019 9:41am

People are going to be offended when their course isn't rated as the most difficult locally, when everyone knows that visitors have a very difficult time playing their course. I think everyone says this about their course.

At the same time, people who are members of courses which get rated as more difficult than they actually are will struggle any time they play away. And I guarantee you not many will make the connection that their course is actually relatively easy.

Rikand · 14-11-2019 9:48am

blue note wrote: »

People are going to be offended when their course isn't rated as the most difficult locally, when everyone knows that visitors have a very difficult time playing their course. I think everyone says this about their course.

At the same time, people who are members of courses which get rated as more difficult than they actually are will struggle any time they play away. And I guarantee you not many will make the connection that their course is actually relatively easy.

It'll work out in the long run when their handicaps inflate abnormally and they start winning inter clubs left right and centre

GreeBo · 14-11-2019 9:54am

billy3sheets wrote: »

And isn't there a potential conflict also with hole indices?
For example, Index 1 might not turn out to have the highest slope rating.

Sure, but does it really matter?
Index is artificial anyway as you have to assign a number between 1 and 18, the odds and evens are split out between the nines, you cant have all the lower ones at the start or end, etc, etc.

Hole index is a nominal indicator of difficulty, but no more than that really.

billy3sheets · 14-11-2019 9:55am

[QUOTE=blue note;111764669]People are going to be offended when their course isn't rated as the most difficult locally, when everyone knows that visitors have a very difficult time playing their course. I think everyone says this about their course.
[/QUOTE]

Yes I wonder if rating will impact the attraction of a course?
Will Ireland's Top 100 Courses now become a simple matter of looking up the ratings?
Will clubs have the right to appeal their ratings?

davegilly · 14-11-2019 10:02am

blue note wrote: »

Yes I wonder if rating will impact the attraction of a course?
Will Ireland's Top 100 Courses now become a simple matter of looking up the ratings?
Will clubs have the right to appeal their ratings?

No because the rating is a measure of course difficulty and not a measure of “niceness”

prawnsambo · 14-11-2019 10:17am

hurleronditch wrote: »

I think this example is over exaggerating it according to the Castlemartyr scorecard online whites are 113/72 and the blues are 123/73.

(81.2*.96)-72) *113/113 = 5.952

Therefor index is 6.0- as the whites are 113 slope it means a round off the whites he plays of 6, a trip round the blues means he plays off 8 (5.95*123/113)+73-72)= 7.47, which rounds to 7.5 and he plays off 8

The big difference in our example is the course rating. A three shot differential between blues and whites is massive and wouldn’t be seen in many Irish courses outside of maybe one of the links courses having beastly tournament tees. As a comparison the biggest difference I’ve ever seen is at Bethpage black where the black tees are over a thousand yards longer than the whites and the ratings are 77.5 vs 74.2

I took the ratings from a Castlemartyr scorecard that I picked up when I was there in September. And then misread it.

Slope of the whites is actually 126 not 120. Blues is as I said: 133. I used SSS as course rating and they are as I posted: 70 for the whites, 73 for the blues. That's not unusual btw. I know a course where the back tees are 75, whites 73 and yellows 70 all par 72.

I imagine that course rating will differ from SSS. The explanation I read is that each hole will be rated as a decimal. So a par 4 could be rated as a 4.3 and a par 5 at 4.8 for example. All added together will add up to the course rating, so it's very unlikely to be an integer.

On a general note, it's quite frustrating that there's very little information available on precisely how the different elements are calculated. I've seen documents saying that the 'magic number' of 96% will not be used and others saying it will. And those saying it will be used are vague on what exactly it will be applied to. If it's the gross score, the result will be significantly different from nett score (both of which I've seen). Using it the way I have (on gross score) will (by my calculations) result in a lower handicap than the current CONGU one by at least two shots, when the stated tested difference is supposed to be no more than +/- one.

Rikand · 14-11-2019 10:59am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I took the ratings from a Castlemartyr scorecard that I picked up when I was there in September. And then misread it.

Slope of the whites is actually 126 not 120. Blues is as I said: 133. I used SSS as course rating and they are as I posted: 70 for the whites, 73 for the blues. That's not unusual btw. I know a course where the back tees are 75, whites 73 and yellows 70 all par 72.

I imagine that course rating will differ from SSS. The explanation I read is that each hole will be rated as a decimal. So a par 4 could be rated as a 4.3 and a par 5 at 4.8 for example. All added together will add up to the course rating, so it's very unlikely to be an integer.

On a general note, it's quite frustrating that there's very little information available on precisely how the different elements are calculated. I've seen documents saying that the 'magic number' of 96% will not be used and others saying it will. And those saying it will be used are vague on what exactly it will be applied to. If it's the gross score, the result will be significantly different from nett score (both of which I've seen). Using it the way I have (on gross score) will (by my calculations) result in a lower handicap than the current CONGU one by at least two shots, when the stated tested difference is supposed to be no more than +/- one.

Result in a lower handicap for you

Whereas for me my handicap is set to rise by almost 2 shots. My current form is not good at all

Edit,.I just recalculated

I tell a lie. My handicap will only go up by exactly 1 shot. I've been a little more consistent than I thought this year. Although I have a 42 points total that is 3 rounds away from being phased out, so that'll bring me over the 2 shots higher when it's gone.

Current exact 6.3
Calculated exact 7.32
In 3 rounds time assuming no improvements : 8.52.

All assuming I'm on a 113 course which I reckon athlone gets graded at

billy3sheets · 14-11-2019 11:14am

davegilly wrote: »

No because the rating is a measure of course difficulty and not a measure of “niceness”

I'm not sure “niceness” is the criteria but I get what you mean.
Still, I bet being in the Top Top 100 Ratings courses will become a thing to aspire to. It may drive courses to toughen up so their rating rises

prawnsambo · 14-11-2019 11:50am

Rikand wrote: »

Result in a lower handicap for you

Whereas for me my handicap is set to rise by almost 2 shots. My current form is not good at all

Edit,.I just recalculated

I tell a lie. My handicap will only go up by exactly 1 shot. I've been a little more consistent than I thought this year. Although I have a 42 points total that is 3 rounds away from being phased out, so that'll bring me over the 2 shots higher when it's gone.

Current exact 6.3
Calculated exact 7.32
In 3 rounds time assuming no improvements : 8.52.

All assuming I'm on a 113 course which I reckon athlone gets graded at

It's an interesting exercise to do. Unfortunately at this stage, there's not enough information to come up with an accurate (or even vaguely accurate) number. As I said above, it's frustrating that the governing bodies are being so vague about it. Pop onto their websites and there are lots of flashy videos and presentations, but they're all in the form of "don't worry your pretty little head about it" when it comes to the nitty gritty.

For those interested, there's a white paper from one of the software companies that was published in April. It specifically states that the 96% 'magic number' will not be used. Page 12 gives the system highlights.

Rikand · 14-11-2019 1:07pm

That link to the white paper isn't working for me ?

prawnsambo · 14-11-2019 1:12pm

Rikand wrote: »

That link to the white paper isn't working for me ?

Should be working now. For some reason a boards url got added to it when I pasted it in.

Rikand · 14-11-2019 2:12pm

No 0.96 will give me a higher handicap. I might just make it to 8!

I haven't seen 8 since I was about 21. A lot of hard work ahead of me next year to make sure it doesnt happen

mike12 · 14-11-2019 5:41pm

I'm guessing that November was picked so that they would have a full counting year to look back on and our handicaps will be calculated at that point looking back at the previous 20 rounds.
Need to hit form for the second half of 2020

prawnsambo · 14-11-2019 6:02pm

mike12 wrote: »

I'm guessing that November was picked so that they would have a full counting year to look back on and our handicaps will be calculated at that point looking back at the previous 20 rounds.
Need to hit form for the second half of 2020

A number of reasons actually. It gives more time to get courses rated, it's a big job in the CONGU countries, EGA, USGA, Australia etc.. have already that part done. And November is after the normal season, so it gives time to bed it in before the next season starts. January (as most other regions are starting from) would be too early.

Russman · 14-11-2019 9:25pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

On a general note, it's quite frustrating that there's very little information available on precisely how the different elements are calculated. I've seen documents saying that the 'magic number' of 96% will not be used and others saying it will. And those saying it will be used are vague on what exactly it will be applied to. If it's the gross score, the result will be significantly different from nett score (both of which I've seen). Using it the way I have (on gross score) will (by my calculations) result in a lower handicap than the current CONGU one by at least two shots, when the stated tested difference is supposed to be no more than +/- one.

I think I’ve even seen it mentioned that the 96% will be applied to your best 8 net differentials as opposed to “scores” per se.

gypsy79 · 18-11-2019 4:43pm

Rikand wrote: »

No 0.96 will give me a higher handicap. I might just make it to 8!

I haven't seen 8 since I was about 21. A lot of hard work ahead of me next year to make sure it doesnt happen

I do believe the number will be 0.93. 0.96 is the US systems multplier

prawnsambo · 18-11-2019 6:08pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

I do believe the number will be 0.93. 0.96 is the US systems multplier

That's the multiplier they use in Australia. I've not seen anyone say that it will be used, whereas the US one and none at all have both been mentioned in various documents I've linked here.

prawnsambo · 04-03-2020 3:46pm

More information coming through on this. There will be an adjustment as referenced earlier in the thread, but confined to Stableford competitions. The adjustment will be 95% of your handicap index.

There will be soft and hard caps to prevent handicap indices going up dramatically. The soft cap is 3 and the hard cap is 5. Between them, the differential will be 50%. So if a score you put in is 4 above your lowest handicap index in the last 12 months, the actual allowable adjustment will be 3.5 above your lowest.

Exceptional scoring adjustments to your handicap index will be made of -1 on differentials between 7 and 9 and -2 on 10 and above. These adjustments will be applied to ALL of your last 20 handicap indices and will fall off one by one with each subsequent round.

It looks like the Par minus Course Rating calculation is not going to be included.

Cards with more than 8 scratches will not be included. You must have a minimum of 10 scores in an eighteen hole competition.

There is an app planned to allow scores to be submitted after hours.

Kingswood Rover · 04-03-2020 8:46pm

WTF are you guys talking about, jeez it sounds very complicated

prawnsambo · 04-03-2020 9:03pm

For the transition to the new system, your handicap index will be based on your last 20 rounds before the cut off date. This can go back as much as three years to get the 20 rounds. For new members or members who haven't got the requisite 20 rounds, the handicap index will be worked out as follows:

3 rounds - Lowest score differential -2
4 rounds - Lowest score differential =1
5 rounds - Lowest score differential
6 rounds - Average of two lowest -1
7 and 8 - Average of two lowest
9 to 11 - Average of three lowest
12 to 14 - Average of four lowest
15 to 16 - Average of five lowest
17 to 18 - Average of six lowest
19 - Average of seven lowest
2 and above - Average of eight lowest

Score differential being calculated as shown earlier in the thread. Basically the net over course rating calculated with slope.

WHS - Slopes

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