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WHS - Slopes

  • 09-11-2019 1:12pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭ gypsy79


    Anyone have any idea of what the slope will be on their course

    Can see some of the more expensive courses not be very happy with the value they receive

    Castleknock is one that springs to mind immediately. Definitely at the more expensive end for opens yet pretty straight forward


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭ Montgolfier


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Anyone have any idea of what the slope will be on their course

    Can see some of the more expensive courses not be very happy with the value they receive

    Castleknock is one that springs to mind immediately. Definitely at the more expensive end for opens yet pretty straight forward

    Tramore is 113 but where that is on the scale I have no idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    Portmarnock Links 122


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭ Golfgraffix


    Tramore is 113 but where that is on the scale I have no idea.

    113 is the exact average. Harder than 113 and your handicap goes up, easier down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    I was a long time a member in tramore. I'd definitely class it as harder than average. It's not an extremely hard course by any stretch, but I'm surprised it's rated as average difficulty. Of the 10 or so courses in Waterford I'd certainly have it as the most difficult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭ paulos53


    To say that Slope measures course difficulty is slightly incorrect. It measures the difficulty for a 20 handicapper versus a scratch golfer.


    For example if a course had a lot of hazards 180 to 200 yards off the tee then the it is assumed the high handicapper will find a lot of trouble off the tee but the hazards won't come in to play for the scratch golfer



    - A slope rating of 113 means no adjustment to handicaps
    - A rating lower than 113 means that it is relatively easier for the 20 handicapper so you would expect handicaps to be reduced.

    - A rating higher than 113 means that is relatively tougher for the 20 handicapper and handicaps should be adjusted upwards for the round





    Also courses should have different slope ratings for each tee.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    paulos53 wrote: »
    To say that Slope measures course difficulty is slightly incorrect. It measures the difficulty for a 20 handicapper versus a scratch golfer.


    For example if a course had a lot of hazards 180 to 200 yards off the tee then the it is assumed the high handicapper will find a lot of trouble off the tee but the hazards won't come in to play for the scratch golfer



    - A slope rating of 113 means no adjustment to handicaps
    - A rating lower than 113 means that it is relatively easier for the 20 handicapper so you would expect handicaps to be reduced.

    - A rating higher than 113 means that is relatively tougher for the 20 handicapper and handicaps should be adjusted upwards for the round





    Also courses should have different slope ratings for each tee.

    That's interesting. Thinking of tramore there are a lot of holes where there's danger from the tee for someone like myself (relatively young) whereas the older members won't reach them. And age probably mirrors handicap quite closely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭ Montgolfier


    blue note wrote: »
    That's interesting. Thinking of tramore the are a lot of holes where there's danger from the tee for someone like myself (relatively young) whereas the key members won't reach them. And age probably mirrors handicap quite closely.

    I agree with bluenote tramore is a tough track I usually play better on other courses. That slope rating is old so it may have to be redone for WHS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭ mjsc1970


    Have all courses had their slope rating done already? I've no idea of the slope rating of my own course.

    Since when had Tramore or Portmarnock had their slope ratings calculated?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    mjsc1970 wrote: »
    Have all courses had their slope rating done already? I've no idea of the slope rating of my own course.

    Since when had Tramore or Portmarnock had their slope ratings calculated?

    Pretty sure that all courses have had it done at this stage in advance of the changes.

    May not be anywhere documented on your scorecard, etc...but I'm sure if you ask in the clubhouse they'll be able to tell you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ HighLine


    Pretty sure that all courses have had it done at this stage in advance of the changes.

    May not be anywhere documented on your scorecard, etc...but I'm sure if you ask in the clubhouse they'll be able to tell you

    Not at all. My course doesn't and apparently most Leinster courses have not have it done yet either.

    I would imagine the new handicap system will be delayed coming in. They are giving November 2020 as the date for introduction... most places will be non-qualifying then anyway so maybe spring 2021.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    HighLine wrote: »
    Not at all. My course doesn't and apparently most Leinster courses have not have it done yet either.

    I would imagine the new handicap system will be delayed coming in. They are giving November 2020 as the date for introduction... most places will be non-qualifying then anyway so maybe spring 2021.
    They were looking for course raters early last year. Applications closed in March 2018 and they had five teams up and running at that time and were filling vacancies. It was specifically stated that they would be doing slope ratings. Hard to believe they've done nothing since then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,376 ✭✭✭ downthemiddle


    They were due in our place last Thursday but cancelled because of weather. Rescheduled for next Tuesday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ HighLine


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    They were looking for course raters early last year. Applications closed in March 2018 and they had five teams up and running at that time and were filling vacancies. It was specifically stated that they would be doing slope ratings. Hard to believe they've done nothing since then.

    Hard to believe for sure but that is the case apparently (as GUI told our handicap sec last week).


  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭ mjsc1970


    Well, I've heard nowt about it at mine. Sure we'll wait and see so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Ours was done last year. Around April iirc. Also know Tulfarris was done last year too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,641 ✭✭✭✭ Seve OB


    HighLine wrote: »
    Not at all. My course doesn't and apparently most Leinster courses have not have it done yet either.

    I would imagine the new handicap system will be delayed coming in. They are giving November 2020 as the date for introduction... most places will be non-qualifying then anyway so maybe spring 2021.

    or will they? nobody knows!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭ blue note


    I found a website with a heap of slope ratings on it. Virtually all courses from all tees were rated 113. Tramore, corballis, elm green, new forest, k club Ryder cup course from the professional tees........ all 113. Portmarnock links and one other (I can't remember which) were rated higher.

    Me thinks we'll just have to wait for it to be done properly before we can trawl through it and call it nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    blue note wrote: »
    I found a website with a heap of slope ratings on it. Virtually all courses from all tees were rated 113. Tramore, corballis, elm green, new forest, k club Ryder cup course from the professional tees........ all 113. Portmarnock links and one other (I can't remember which) were rated higher.

    Me thinks we'll just have to wait for it to be done properly before we can trawl through it and call it nonsense.
    113 is the base level multiplier for handicap calculation. The formula is:
    ((score - course rating) * 113) / slope rating = handicap differential.


    So listing it at 113 means no handicap differential. In other words, they ether don't have a rating yet, or the site doesn't know it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 mike12


    Played Enniscrone during the week and on their card.
    Blue tees 133
    White tees 131
    Yellow tees 123
    Green tees 111.
    You will find all the links have it done for years as they cater for the American market and they want to adjust their handicaps for the day.
    It will be interesting I'm guessing I would be getting a shot or 2 playing Blue or White.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,641 ✭✭✭✭ Seve OB


    mike12 wrote: »
    Played Enniscrone during the week and on their card.
    Blue tees 133
    White tees 131
    Yellow tees 123
    Green tees 111.
    You will find all the links have it done for years as they cater for the American market and they want to adjust their handicaps for the day.
    It will be interesting I'm guessing I would be getting a shot or 2 playing Blue or White.

    The clubs may have done it themselves in the past but every club course will be rated now by the gui branches


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Seve OB wrote: »
    The clubs may have done it themselves in the past but every club course will be rated now by the gui branches
    Not sure clubs can actually do that. Even to get a SSS for a front nine or back nine requires a rating from the GUI. You can't just do it yourself, even if it's a straightforward exercise of taking the full 18 SSS. But I also checked the Enniscrone website and the slope rating was only added between July 2017 and April 2018. The PDF of the card doesn't have it and that's dated 2016. So it looks to me like the rating was done in or around the time that the GUI started rating courses for slope. Both courses there were done at the same time apparently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭ martinkop


    Enniscrone have had a slope rating for years for the US market. Wasn't on cards but was in locker room, definitely back in 2011.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    martinkop wrote: »
    Enniscrone have had a slope rating for years for the US market. Wasn't on cards but was in locker room, definitely back in 2011.
    Thanks. That answers the DIY question. But the published ones seem to align pretty well with when the GUI started doing them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    Checked with the lads at my course and Castlewarden was done by Leinster rating team in 2017 when the plans were originally announced:

    Blues: 119
    Whites: 117
    Yellows: 114


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭ spacecoyote


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    113 is the base level multiplier for handicap calculation. The formula is:
    ((score - course rating) * 113) / slope rating = handicap differential.


    So listing it at 113 means no handicap differential. In other words, they ether don't have a rating yet, or the site doesn't know it.

    Just in terms of the above, is score = gross/net strokes?
    And what is the course rating, is that the SSS/CSS?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    Just in terms of the above, is score = gross/net strokes?
    And what is the course rating, is that the SSS/CSS?
    Score is gross strokes. The course rating is done along with the slope rating. I think the course rating is derived from a scratch golfer's expected score and the slope is from a hypothetical 20 handicapper's (I think it's actually between about 19 and 22) score.

    So if you have your handicap from your home course and go to another course, the handicap for that course is: handicap * slope / 113. At least that's how I understand it. Your handicap is a decimal, but then rounded up or down as is done currently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,308 ✭✭✭✭ prawnsambo


    So here's a rough calculation based on a Castlewarden member playing at Enniscrone. I'm setting the course rating at Castlewarden (Whites) to a hypothetical 75 (based on the slope of the white tees).

    Your gross score is 92 off the white tees. That gives a handicap differential of ((92 - 75) * 113) / 117 = 16.41. So a handicap of 16.

    Now we take that to Enniscrone and play off the white tees again. Your new handicap for that course is 16.41 * 131 / 113 = 19.03.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,330 ✭✭✭ brick tamland


    I wonder what will turn out to be the Irish courses with the highest and lowest index’s? Enniscrone will be right up there you’d think. European club may take some beating. Struggling to pick out a lowest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 mike12


    I wonder what will turn out to be the Irish courses with the highest and lowest index’s? Enniscrone will be right up there you’d think. European club may take some beating. Struggling to pick out a lowest.

    The links courses are all going to be up there, any course where u loose your ball if you miss the fairway it going to be rated hard.
    The length of the rough when its rated I'm guessing will have a big effect on the rating.
    When they are finished I reckon it won't take long for a magazine to issue a listing of the ratings.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,823 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    I'd imagine the ratings will be controversial.


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