Blades??

Russman · 06-11-2019 11:01am

Par72 wrote: »

Have you seen those things you attach to your putter face that prevent the ball from going towards the target unless you hit the ball off the sweetspot? That's along the lines of practicing with a blade in my opinion. Generally speaking the area on cavity-back, game improvement irons where you can hit the ball and still get a decent result is way larger than it is on a bladed iron. It is also not always easy to feel if you have hit the ball off the sweetspot of the face with cavity backs.

I think that if I practised hitting shots with a club that has a small sweetspot (ie a bladed iron), I would be able to tell immediately if I was hitting it off the middle or not. With this instant feedback I would work to hit the ball off the sweetspot and groove that feeling. The presumption would be that when I go back to practicing and playing with the forgiving cavity backs I would be hitting the ball more to the middle of the club and would be avoiding those dull, not-quite-off-the-centre shots.

Honestly, I can see the theory behind this, but IMHO it doesn't work like that in reality. Nobody, and I mean nobody, hits it out of the sweetspot all the time. Even someone with a technically sound swing doesn't hit the centre all the time. Cavities IMO don't provide a masking effect for awful swings, they just let you get away with slight mi****s a bit more than a blade would. Grooving a feeling won't stop the odd shot being a few mm off centre, for sure it will help with swing path, attack angle etc., but slight mis-strikes will always happen. I'm sure we've all made what feels like a good swing and hit the ball a groove or two low on the face or a fraction towards the heel etc. - its shots like that that I personally think the cavities help more with.

whizbang · 06-11-2019 11:51pm

The more modern clubs like MX and JPX's have plastic 'tuning insert' stuck to them. Its specifically designed to change the feel and sound of the strike.

So it almost goes to prove that feedback is artificial on these clubs. Nothing remotely like the feedback on a real old school blade.

Greebo, it sounds very like you have never played with a pure blade.

And, by the way, we are not talking about a 'do or die', must win at all costs round of golf. This is practice, education, inprovement, etc.

GreeBo · 07-11-2019 9:40am

whizbang wrote: »

The more modern clubs like MX and JPX's have plastic 'tuning insert' stuck to them. Its specifically designed to change the feel and sound of the strike.

So it almost goes to prove that feedback is artificial on these clubs. Nothing remotely like the feedback on a real old school blade.

Greebo, it sounds very like you have never played with a pure blade.

And, by the way, we are not talking about a 'do or die', must win at all costs round of golf. This is practice, education, inprovement, etc.

I have played with them and gamed (har har) a set of MBs for years.

Feel and sound of strike aren't the only feedback. Did the ball fly like it was supposed to, the direction and distance it was supposed to?
Thats the only feedback you need.

RoadRunner · 07-11-2019 10:42am

whizbang wrote: »

inprovement

improvement

(couldn't help it)

Better feedback from players irons, better training aid.

benny79 · 07-11-2019 1:28pm

Dont know if anyone has checked out the strike plan by Adam Young? but I think its suits this thread. As I always had a similar idea as the OP and reading this thread brought them taughts back but someone mentioned the strike plan and I purchased it last Monday early days as I have only touched on it. But seems good so far just to put the practice and drills into place on range. Only cost $42 with code.

If anyone is interested I have a code to get 20% off. As some fellow boardie kindly gave me

Just Pm me

spacecoyote · 07-11-2019 2:37pm

benny79 wrote: »

Dont know if anyone has checked out the strike plan by Adam Young? but I think its suits this thread. As I always had a similar idea as the OP and reading this thread brought them taughts back but someone mentioned the strike plan and I purchased it last Monday early days as I have only touched on it. But seems good so far just to put the practice and drills into place on range. Only cost $42 with code.

If anyone is interested I have a code to get 20% off. As some fellow boardie kindly gave me

Just Pm me

Wonder who gave you that code?

A lot of his drills would definitely help improve strike, and it wouldn't matter what type of club you're doing the drill with, so I think you're right. A lot cheaper than even buying an old 2nd hand set of blades too

ShivasIrons · 07-11-2019 5:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/lighter-is-better-equipment-qa

Right back at ya.

Ah ok then, case closed I guess.:rolleyes:

I provided research from an independent fitter who has shown that lighter doesn't always mean faster, lighter is faster for some but 88% swing faster with heavier whereas you provided an interview with a club manufacturer who had just bought out a lighter club and were looking to sell it. One size doesn't fit all.

As for you ascertaining that any feedback is good enough, this is not true, the amount of feedback is important for learning, blades give much more feedback then big chunky cavities. The player not only needs to know that the ball was struck off the heel or the toe but how far off the heel or toe. There is no doubt that blades are much better at doing this and the OP is correct in thinking this.

MarcusP12 · 07-11-2019 10:05pm

Well well well....look what came up on one of the pro vloggers on YouTube I follow........

https://youtu.be/6tD1-SjwS-U

Hopefully the link works....main points are from 5 min on exactly....ok it's not exactly David Ledbetter talking here but he's more or less suggesting exactly what I was thinking would be a good idea.....fair enough, you may think it's a load of $hite but at least there's someone with a bit more credibility than me suggesting it this time.....im relieved to think I'm not completely off my golfing rocker so that's good enough for me....whether I could be ar$ed or not to try it out is another thing....hard to come across such a nice set of blades for small money here compared to what he picked up in the video which puts me off...

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 12:21am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

As for you ascertaining that any feedback is good enough, this is not true, the amount of feedback is important for learning, blades give much more feedback then big chunky cavities. The player not only needs to know that the ball was struck off the heel or the toe but how far off the heel or toe. There is no doubt that blades are much better at doing this and the OP is correct in thinking this.

I'm not saying any feedback is good enough, I'm saying the ball gives you all the feedback you need.

Seriously, how far of the hell or toe? It's either middle, heel or toe unless you are almost missing the ball.
If you are almost missing the ball then blades are the least of your worries.

And what's your answer for the pretty basic problem of learning to "grove your swing" with a set of clubs that have a totally different loft, lie, shaft, swing weight, kick point, flex and weight than the clubs you play with?
It's pointless, I've never seen or heard of a professional doing this, have you?
If you want to get better, get a lesson and practice what the pro tells you, and then get another lesson.

Trying to hit blades is going to result in you slowing down your swing and being steery in a desperate attempt to get the ball airborne, the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.

Par72 · 08-11-2019 10:50am

GreeBo wrote: »

If you can't tell a miss hit from a good strike then there are other problems involved, you yourself go on to call them "full, not quite of the centre shots" so clearly you are already getting all the feedback you need?

Also do you really not think that if "grooving the feeling" was a thing, the professional golfern whose livelihood depends on it would be doing it?

Why isn't every Pro using the tour striker training aid? Surely that's better again then using blades?

I'm a fairly successful golfer who thinks that "grooving the feeling" is thing, I consider myself to be a feel player. I don't know what every professional golfer whose livelihood depends on it does, nor indeed do you.

The feedback from modern, cavity backed clubs is limited - this is the point which you seem to disagree with?

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 11:45am

Par72 wrote: »

I'm a fairly successful golfer who thinks that "grooving the feeling" is thing, I consider myself to be a feel player. I don't know what every professional golfer whose livelihood depends on it does, nor indeed do you.

Indeed I don't, but I have never heard or seen any evidence of any professional golfer practicing with old clubs to improve their game. (I dont count a youtuber as a professional golfer in this context)

Again, why dont we see the pros on the range with old hogans or tour strikers? If it helped at all, I'm pretty sure you would see the guys who depend on their golf to make a living using them.
Sure Harrington straps half a tennis ball under his foot, wears a lyrca swing shirt and yet you dont see him doing it!

I would also distinguish between "grooving the feeling" and being "a feel player"
I play many shots by feel, but other than hitting the 100th pitch shot closer than the previous 99 on the practice range, I dont think I am grooving anything.

The feedback from modern, cavity backed clubs is limited - this is the point which you seem to disagree with?

The ball is the #1 source of feedback for me, it only does what the club tells it to do.
There is enough feedback from any club to tell you if you hit it on the heel, toe, low or high.
I dispute that
a) using a blade will tell you if you were .5 or .7 of cm from the sweetspot and b) in any case, using a blade will help you reduce that .7 down to .5 any more than any other club would.

MarcusP12 · 08-11-2019 2:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed I don't, but I have never heard or seen any evidence of any professional golfer practicing with old clubs to improve their game. (I dont count a youtuber as a professional golfer in this context)

Again, why dont we see the pros on the range with old hogans or tour strikers? If it helped at all, I'm pretty sure you would see the guys who depend on their golf to make a living using them.
Sure Harrington straps half a tennis ball under his foot, wears a lyrca swing shirt and yet you dont see him doing it!

I would also distinguish between "grooving the feeling" and being "a feel player"
I play many shots by feel, but other than hitting the 100th pitch shot closer than the previous 99 on the practice range, I dont think I am grooving anything.

The ball is the #1 source of feedback for me, it only does what the club tells it to do.
There is enough feedback from any club to tell you if you hit it on the heel, toe, low or high.
I dispute that
a) using a blade will tell you if you were .5 or .7 of cm from the sweetspot and b) in any case, using a blade will help you reduce that .7 down to .5 any more than any other club would.

At this stage, and no disrespect as you are completely entitled to your opinion, but I think you are completely missing the point or at least mine (endorsed by coincidence by the YouTuber pro)....you’re suggesting that the idea is non sense because you don’t see pros doing this but there’s nothing in the YouTube video I posted which was saying that he himself was going to use this approach...he was suggesting that his viewers (assumed to be regular golfers of all abilities) could do worse than practicing over the winter with hard to hit clubs as this on the range would likely benefit their performance going forward if they stick with it....I also don’t think there’s any suggestion by myself or your man that people should play blades instead of GI irons full time, just to practice with them to the benefit of your overall ball striking...the principal being that if you can hit a blade half decent, then you’ll hit a GI type more forgiving iron much better that you OTHERWISE would....

Anyway, no ones forcing this down anyone’s throat as the be and end all of improving....it was an idea I’ve had for a very long time and since I’ve gotten back into golf after a long sabbatical, I just thought I’d throw it out there.....some people will think it’s non sense outright, others might think it’s unlikely to work but worth a go for the craic, and others, like the pro I posted the video of, thinks it would be good to try....I dunno about you guys but if a club pro thinks it’s a good idea then there much be something in it for someone....even to the point where it might be worth a punt..

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 2:56pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

At this stage, and no disrespect as you are completely entitled to your opinion, but I think you are completely missing the point or at least mine (endorsed by coincidence by the YouTuber pro)....you’re suggesting that the idea is non sense because you don’t see pros doing this but there’s nothing in the YouTube video I posted which was saying that he himself was going to use this approach...he was suggesting that his viewers (assumed to be regular golfers of all abilities) could do worse than practicing over the winter with hard to hit clubs as this on the range would likely benefit their performance going forward if they stick with it....I also don’t think there’s any suggestion by myself or your man that people should play blades instead of GI irons full time, just to practice with them to the benefit of your overall ball striking...the principal being that if you can hit a blade half decent, then you’ll hit a GI type more forgiving iron much better that you OTHERWISE would....

Anyway, no ones forcing this down anyone’s throat as the be and end all of improving....it was an idea I’ve had for a very long time and since I’ve gotten back into golf after a long sabbatical, I just thought I’d throw it out there.....some people will think it’s non sense outright, others might think it’s unlikely to work but worth a go for the craic, and others, like the pro I posted the video of, thinks it would be good to try....I dunno about you guys but if a club pro thinks it’s a good idea then there much be something in it for someone....even to the point where it might be worth a punt..

I'm not saying it's nonsense because you dont see pros using it, I'm saying its nonsense AND you dont see Pros doing it

Practicing with hard to hit clubs, on your own, is going to lead to swing compromises in a desperate effort to hit the ball remotely properly.
Could a scratch golfer benefit from this...possibly, but only if the clubs are the same spec as his own.
So far everyone has ignored the question of why you would train yourself to swing clubs that are a totally different setup than your own? Heavier, different flex, etc, etc
How can this help you swing your own clubs better?
As I said, you *might* learn to hit the middle of blade (with compromises) but then your own clubs are completely different so you are worse off than before!

benny79 · 08-11-2019 3:56pm

Someone made a point earlier of there just being toe, centre, and heel strikes believe it or not there is different variances of toe and heel strikes and centre strikes (how far up the grooves) although the margins are small.

MarcusP12 · 08-11-2019 4:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm not saying it's nonsense because you dont see pros using it, I'm saying its nonsense AND you dont see Pros doing it

Practicing with hard to hit clubs, on your own, is going to lead to swing compromises in a desperate effort to hit the ball remotely properly.
Could a scratch golfer benefit from this...possibly, but only if the clubs are the same spec as his own.
So far everyone has ignored the question of why you would train yourself to swing clubs that are a totally different setup than your own? Heavier, different flex, etc, etc
How can this help you swing your own clubs better?
As I said, you *might* learn to hit the middle of blade (with compromises) but then your own clubs are completely different so you are worse off than before!

Why are you suggesting that a scratch golfer might benefit from this but not a mid handicapper for example and why are you assuming that someone trying this might not try to match the same spec as their own? Surely a scratch golfer has less to benefit from this cuz they're em, a scratch golfer and have less room for improvement! Maybe i'm not delving as forensically into the theory of it as you but I'm struggling to see how it can't help an average golfer if they stuck at it. It purely aimed at the strike so I can understand the rational of using the impact tape (which are pricey by the way!) instead but I don't see how it could possibly screw up your swing like you suggest. In the same way you absolutely can't see how it could work, I equally can't see how it might not.

Its almost reaching the point where i'm going to go ahead and source a couple of decent blades to try it out JUST to prove that its possible since you don't have any personal evidence to suggest its not, just "theory":rolleyes::)

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 8:48pm

benny79 wrote: »

Someone made a point earlier of there just being toe, centre, and heel strikes believe it or not there is different variances of toe and heel strikes and centre strikes (how far up the grooves) although the margins are small.

True there are, but the difference is minimal and couple that with a humans inability to have a swing repeatable to those levels, I think its a moot point.

i.e.
We are talking about differences of less than 5mm, no matter how good you are you are going to have a margin of error on your strikes of 5mm so whats the point?

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Why are you suggesting that a scratch golfer might benefit from this but not a mid handicapper for example and why are you assuming that someone trying this might not try to match the same spec as their own? Surely a scratch golfer has less to benefit from this cuz they're em, a scratch golfer and have less room for improvement!

I said a scratch golfer *might* because the blades they use would be likely much closer to the clubs they actually play with. They also have a much better, more repeatable swing which is far less likely to require compromises to actually get the ball airborne with a blade.

Your average 18+ handicap golfer isnt going to have the skill, speed or ability to get a 5i blade off the ground with any degree of repeatability...thats why we have GI irons etc.

i'm not delving as forensically into the theory of it as you but I'm struggling to see how it can't help an average golfer if they stuck at it. It purely aimed at the strike so I can understand the rational of using the impact tape (which are pricey by the way!) instead but I don't see how it could possibly screw up your swing like you suggest. In the same way you absolutely can't see how it could work, I equally can't see how it might not.

I dont think I'm being forensic at all tbh, to me its obvious

It could screw up your swing because, even if you somehow managed to pickup a set of clubs with the exact same specs as your own clubs (which I think is highly unlikely) you will end up decelerating to trying and find the middle since the cost of missing the middle is so high with blades.

Its almost reaching the point where i'm going to go ahead and source a couple of decent blades to try it out JUST to prove that its possible since you don't have any personal evidence to suggest its not, just "theory":rolleyes::)

Fire away mate, no skin of my nose.
I'd be interested to know how you plan on proving that anything you did with a blade was the definitive source of any improvement compared to say the extra hours of practice, but it makes no odds to me.
I'd argue the fact that no professional golfer on the planet does it is large point in my favour, versus one nobody on youtube trying to gain subscribers who are desperate for the next easy fix.

Do let us know how you get on, can't wait to hear how your St Patricks Cup goes

Par72 · 08-11-2019 8:54pm

Well I am actually a scratch golfer and feel that I could benefit from practicing with blades. I never suggested that these blades should have a completely different shaft/swing weight/grip/shaft length/whatever than my other clubs.

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 9:07pm

Par72 wrote: »

Well I am actually a scratch golfer and feel that I could benefit from practicing with blades. I never suggested that these blades should have a completely different shaft/swing weight/grip/shaft length/whatever than my other clubs.

Great, so what clubs do you use at the moment and what are the chances of you picking up a cheap, old set of blades that match them for lie, loft, swing weight, shaft etc, etc?

Par72 · 08-11-2019 9:15pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Great, so what clubs do you use at the moment and what are the chances of you picking up a cheap, old set of blades that match them for lie, loft, swing weight, shaft etc, etc?

I currently use a set of Ping irons that would be classified as game improvement. I got fitted for them last year and told the fitter I didn't have any brand loyalty/bias that I just wanted whatever I get the best results from. I imagine it would be tricky enough to find a set of cheap, old blades with the exact same spec. but it shouldn't be too difficult to find some with similar enough spec.

GreeBo · 08-11-2019 9:19pm

Par72 wrote: »

I currently use a set of Ping irons that would be classified as game improvement. I got fitted for them last year and told the fitter I didn't have any brand loyalty/bias that I just wanted whatever I get the best results from. I imagine it would be tricky enough to find a set of cheap, old blades with the exact same spec. but it shouldn't be too difficult to find some with similar enough spec.

It is tricky alright, I'm "lucky" that I have two sets of clubs, both TM RAC one in MB and one in OS, both from the same year, but even so they are very different to swing, the MB feels much heavier due to the solid head, also the shafts are stiff metal compared to regular graphite on the OS..so two very different sets of identical clubs!

#
/edit
i played the MB for years and hit them well, but I still gained yardage and swing speed when I switched to the OS as I was swinging so far within myself with the MB just to increase the chances of a good strike that even when I middled it, it was at 70% swing.

coddlesangers · 11-11-2019 5:51pm

Gonna chime in with a small observation. In any athletic activity, you can train improve your ability to perform an everyday task by doing a much more difficult version of the same task. In golf, you see this often with putting, using a ball size hole as a training aide which makes putting into a regular size hole like putting into a bucket. You fine tune your precision on short puts very quickly using this method.

I believe the blades would help in a similar way. I have an old set of titleist tour model blades from 1985, which i replaced with some DCI 990's, due to be replaced shortly as well. I still use the sandwedge from the original set of tour model blades, and i have the 1, 5 and 7 iron in my locker. I LOVE taking them for a spin on the practice area to see how i'm striking it. I get a great confidence booster from taking out the blades and making a nice contact, it shows me that i'm in general in good shape.

I dont see what bad thing can happen by having a few bladed irons in your kit bag, similar to putting into a small hole every now and again or any other practice variant that challenges you. The biggest challenge to an amateur improving is lack of enthusiasm around practice, anything that makes it more fun and therefore has you doing more of it I'd encourage! I'd second everything everyone else has said about using tape to see where you are striking it, and also that if your ONLY objective is to improve your iron strike, then this is NOT the way to do it in the shortest possible time.

GreeBo · 12-11-2019 12:10am

Using a smaller hole to practice is totally different than using blades, you wouldnt try to improve your putting my using a stick instead of a putter.

You make the target harder to achieve but still doing the same activity, in soccer you practice free kicks with a bigger wall or smaller goal, but you are still using a football, you don't change to a rugby ball even though that would be much harder.

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation at this point; anything that gets you playing more golf is a good thing, but just do it with your own clubs!

Blades??

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